Evidence for God from Science

I wonder how much of these problems come not from the organization per se, but the influence of modern culture upon the church.

I wonder, for instance, if the churches of 200-300 years ago had it a little easier.

take, for example, the current problem of image and hiding in the current church. so many people try to present such a strong image and hide sins, the exact opposite of what true fellowship should be.

Whereas I think the idea of repentance, sin, and the reason for Christ was far more emphaized (evidenced by the wonderful Puritan prayers in Valley of Vision) in the earlier church.

The modern church, even if rather orthodox in theology, has been so influenced by this feel good society and feel good theology that the body of believers, instead of focusing on repectance, focuses instead on a superficial fellowship.

tragedy, as well, was such a more prevalent condition in the past. People dealth with just so much more in the past that they had to rely more on each other. Community was a real thing, people depended on each other for both comfort and support. Disease, death, and need was simply a harsher reality.

We are drowning in comfort, we should we go to the people in the church (especially when we are at such pains to maintain the image of a happy CHristian?)

I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea of the church as an organization. As anything is subject to the corruption of man, we are seeing the corruption.

Paul himself equated the body of CHrist to the human body and that it certainly highly

My experience is that even the small groups are superficial and transitory. I finished small group leadership training 1 and 2 at Saddleback Church while attending a small group at a doctor's house. I basically deformed in front of the doctor who ran the small group fellowship and he never even cared enough to tell me that taking ibuprofen would help with the swelling that was destroying my joints right in front of his eyes though it was obvious I needed MUCH more than ibuprofen. No one else cared either. The doctor was scared of liablity and I'm sure talked to someone at the church that told him his responsibility ended with presenting the 40 Days of Love material and praying for me advice which he took. Everyone else followed along. The Christians today, as a rule, really don't care about suffering people enough to help them. Mostly these meetings are about intellectual and emotional fulfillment. So I sat there going over 40 days of Love while nobody practiced it where it counted most and after deforming told the good doctor I would take my problems elsewhere and left the church. I'm sure they breathed a sigh of relief and continued on seeking their happiness. Mine was gone.

That's exactly what I would expect at any small group fellowship anywhere in the country. Basically they are all the same. The parameters for these small group fellowships are pretty much standardized in practice and policy anywhere you go. Sure you can adjust your meeting schedules and choose your courses and mix up the format like Jac does but that's about the extent of it. If someone is actually starving to death or turning into a cripple, nobody's going to do anything about it. So it is what it is and that truth should be acknowledged.

ageofknowledge wrote:My experience is that even the small groups are superficial and transitory. I finished small group leadership training 1 and 2 at Saddleback Church while attending a small group at a doctor's house. I basically deformed in front of the doctor who ran the small group fellowship and he never even cared enough to tell me that taking ibuprofen would help with the swelling that was destroying my joints right in front of his eyes. No one else cared either. The doctor was scared of liablity and I'm sure talked to someone at the church that told him his responsibility ended with presenting the 40 Days of Love material and praying for me advice which he took. So I sat there going over 40 days of Love while nobody practiced it... lol. I left the church.

But they are all basically the same. I would expect nothing different anywhere else. The parameters for these small group fellowships are pretty much standardized in practice and policy anywhere you go. You can adjust your meeting schedules and choose your courses and mix up the format but that's the extent of it. If someone is actually starving to death or turning into a cripple, nobody's going to do anything. It is what it is.

I don't want someone to think I'm being picky, but people in S Cal are just not very friendly. You go to a church, and oftentimes you're not really greeted at the door or anything. People are very aloof. I simply think of it as urban boundaries. The last time I went back to Michigan, the difference was glaring. The people at the hotel were NICE. I had to stop for a minute and slow down and realize that they were being nice to me and that I needed to have a nice interchange. LOL. Then my aunt took me to her church, and all the people were so NICE. Now, my other aunt took me to her church, a much bigger one, and the people were more aloof there too. I think a lot of it is a matter of how urban a place is. The more crowded and urban, the more people tend to build a wall around themselves. However, your personal experience in that group with that doctor was absurd in any case. That's really sad to hear.

Zoegirl,

I think you make a good point about culture although I have a little different spin upon it. Every culture and time period has it's own pet elements that arise and the institutional church to varying degrees, depending upon the issue, has in it's many variations, had elements of thinking and practise introduced. Over time, they become accepted at a level beneath conscious thought and then, when the next generations or itenerations come along, and challenges some of those "sacred cows" then there is a tendency to begin to defend those things as if they have been part and parcel of the faith delivered once and for all to all the saints.

The same resistance that took place to modern elements in the institutional churches in the past is to some degree being applied to post-modernism and some of those modern elements are now assumed as normative when they were introduced or the emphasis changed on them in the past.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not suggesting all elements of Biblically understood truth extend to this or that there is no objective, orthodox, truth. I believe in that. The reality however is that in the area of ecclessiology, the institutional church as we see and understand it simply didn't exist for the first 300 years of Church History and much of what is done simply doesn't have a scriptural basis. That doesn't mean there isn't freedom to have those elements if believers so choose (although that may not be true in every instance where introduced elements actually violate scripture), but perhaps it would behoove us to recognize it then as choice and not attempt to defend scripturally what isn't found there.

I've heard some good sermons. I flatter myself that I may have even given some. The truth is if you go to scripture to look for any person or office described there that speaks weekly in a sermon to the same people week after week, who marries and buries people, who leads the church as a human extension of Christ's headship etc. etc. you just won't find it. That's just one example by the way.

That Jesus too was pretty regularly criticized for not being serious enough about sin and spending too much time with sinners. I don't discount the puritans or suggest there's no value in their contributions and understandings of truth. They're pretty recent overall relatively as well and much of their cultural outlook was accepted and implemented in the culture of their day as the norm.

Culture and tradition is very powerful and further it is very difficult and takes a great deal of critical thought and deliberate analysis to see and understand as we just tend to have those elements under our radar.

bart

Age,

I understand what your saying and in the context you're saying it I agree.

Organic church as Frank Viola has exegeted it however is not small groups or house churches. Most small groups and many house churches have a more intimate setting and allow for some level of relationship, but that doesn't make them organic by definition. Often times they're just smaller models of the what goes on Sunday morning. They're programmed, structured, with clear hierarchical leadership where participants are limited and controlled in what they can and cannot share.

It's more than changing the location and size of the group. It's a pretty powerful shift and truth be told, it doesn't just happen because people get together and say it's going to happen.

bart

Organic church doesn't deny that there are teachers, pastors, elders etc.

It sees those as primarily functions however, not offices. Elders and pastors are defined within the body by the manner in which they function in terms of their hearts and gifts. The body recognizes those functions in those who are already functioning in that manner and their function in the context of servant leadership under the headship of Christ is the basis of any authority, not an assigned office.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Organic church doesn't deny that there are teachers, pastors, elders etc.

It sees those as primarily functions however, not offices. Elders and pastors are defined within the body by the manner in which they function in terms of their hearts and gifts. The body recognizes those functions in those who are already functioning in that manner and their function in the context of servant leadership under the headship of Christ is the basis of any authority, not an assigned office.

Ok, sounds good. I'll try to read the book, but I'm not sure when I'll get to it. So many books, so little time . . .

ageofknowledge wrote:My experience is that even the small groups are superficial and transitory. I finished small group leadership training 1 and 2 at Saddleback Church while attending a small group at a doctor's house. I basically deformed in front of the doctor who ran the small group fellowship and he never even cared enough to tell me that taking ibuprofen would help with the swelling that was destroying my joints right in front of his eyes though it was obvious I needed MUCH more than ibuprofen. No one else cared either. The doctor was scared of liablity and I'm sure talked to someone at the church that told him his responsibility ended with presenting the 40 Days of Love material and praying for me advice which he took. Everyone else followed along. The Christians today, as a rule, really don't care about suffering people enough to help them. Mostly these meetings are about intellectual and emotional fulfillment. So I sat there going over 40 days of Love while nobody practiced it where it counted most and after deforming told the good doctor I would take my problems elsewhere and left the church. I'm sure they breathed a sigh of relief and continued on seeking their happiness. Mine was gone.

That's exactly what I would expect at any small group fellowship anywhere in the country. Basically they are all the same. The parameters for these small group fellowships are pretty much standardized in practice and policy anywhere you go. Sure you can adjust your meeting schedules and choose your courses and mix up the format like Jac does but that's about the extent of it. If someone is actually starving to death or turning into a cripple, nobody's going to do anything about it. So it is what it is and that truth should be acknowledged.

You see I have had the opposite experience. We've had several go through cancer and other illness, and I have seen people really demonstrate the love of Christ, getting their hands dirty with the problems of others.

Short of Rick Warren's daughter-in-law and the whole church reacting in support I haven't seen it. When Rick Warren's daughter-in-law had to have a surgery of the brain the whole church came together and built a fund and website for her and donated a lot of money and she had the best care in the world and came through everything and is doing fine. Rich people and high level people get the support and care in my experience. Everyone else is on their own or restricted to family and a couple of friends. Nobody cared about my situation I can tell you that. Neither the church, nor anyone in it did. But I'm not in Rick Warren's family.

A wonderful Jewish convert to Christ and friend of mine is almost dead by cancer. She won't make it through 2010 for sure. She's dying in squalor in a cabin in Big Bear and will be leaving behind a 4 year old son and distraught husband. No websites, no funds, no money, no support for her. But then she's not Rick Warren's daughter-in-law. This is what I see. This is what I observe. These are representative of my experiences.

ageofknowledge wrote:Short of Rick Warren's daughter-in-law and the whole church reacting in support I haven't seen it. When Rick Warren's daughter-in-law had to have a surgery of the brain the whole church came together and built a fund and website for her and donated a lot of money and she had the best care in the world and came through everything and is doing fine. Rich people and high level people get the support and care in my experience. Everyone else is on their own or restricted to family and a couple of friends. Nobody cared about my situation I can tell you that. Neither the church, nor anyone in it did. But I'm not in Rick Warren's family.

A wonderful Jewish convert to Christ and friend of mine is almost dead by cancer. She won't make it through 2010 for sure. She's dying in squalor in a cabin in Big Bear and will be leaving behind a 4 year old son and distraught husband. No websites, no funds, no money, no support for her. But then she's not Rick Warren's daughter-in-law. This is what I see. This is what I observe. These are representative of my experiences.

I can't argue with your experiences Age. I've had some similar. I had cancer when I was 24. My wife and I had our insurance carrier go bankrupt and then found it was not a proper insurer in the first place and so the state Insurance fund for the purpose of protecting those affected by carrier bankruptcies didn't kick in. After I went through surgery and radiation treatment, we were stuck with bills that represented more than 5 times what I was able to make working for churches following that. We received very little help directly from churches in that instance. However, we did have an attorney in one instance from a church I worked for but didn't attend, who helped us handle creditors and to have some of the bills eliminated or reduced because of our circumstances. It was a long and very hard process to pay those debts off.

In other instances, with other situations, there have been times when churches have been very generous helping financially, so I have to say that that experience hasn't characterized everything I've seen and experienced. I've even had some instances where help was extended out of a sense of seeming obligation and at the same time emotional contact and support from those within the church was cut off and I was effectively shunned. The message seemed to be that the financial help relieved them of the responsibility to be the church in other regards and so it came across at times, whether intended or not, as a message to take the support offered and leave.

Some of that has tied into my general observations that something is seriously broken and missing within institutional churches, and while this isn't the whole reason I've chosen to leave them, it certainly has tied in.

I won't tell you how to feel about your own experiences, but do you think it's possible that perhaps that there is more available out there that what you and I see at times and maybe the answer is first to accept and offer foregiveness and then seek in the love God gives us to first and foremost be extenders of the love and support we want to others and maybe that will lay the foundation for seeing the principle come back to us in some form as well? That's what I'm trying to learn to live and please don't take it as trying to elicit shame or guilt for you, because I'll be the first to admit that I'm not fully there yet. It is what I sense the spirit leading me in, today however and I'm moving on the path of organic fellowship as part of the solution to what I see as inherent flaws and failures in most institutional fellowships in this area.

Age,

I wouldn't think that is uncommon in the mega churches. We aren't a mega church, but there are probably people in our congregation that could get sick and no one would be the wiser. I'm sure we have missed the mark. But there are a lot of good testimonies. And not rich people. I can tell you just this past week one lady, (single mother) got an anonymous envelope through someone in the church. My in-laws who are members, just offered a car for someone else in our congregation in need.

Sounds like you were pretty plugged in. That is just a shame if the church just abandons a member. I would say it exposes the truth. I have my doubts about Saddleback anyway. I can remember a few years ago, our staff was going to Saddleback to learn their secret. I was skeptical, and rightly so. Since, they seem to have come to their senses.

I think size is a huge factor in what has been discussed. People can get lost in the sea of people. I dislike intensely the new mode of modern mega-churches that look more like concert halls, where the worship service is more like a concert, with people listening instead of singing, or worse, where people are actively talking during the songs, and where you can go for en entire year and not sit next to a familiar face.

Those churches are the churches where the fringe of society, the sick, the poor, the lonely, are already at risk from being ignored. These churches plan programs and the aforementioned are rarely actively pursued.

There is that unique "critical mass" of a church, yet I have found that the smaller the church the better. Less bureaucracy, people are almost forced to get to know each other, and people actually sing and worship.

Small groups can be good or bad, it all depends on the people involved. It takes a mature leader to bring people together and it takes growing Christians to build a sense of community.

That being said, small churches can also have a tendency to be insular and hard to break into.

I have seen the difference between the acceptance of the loner versus the young family many times. If you are married and have children, I don't know if it is easier for them to see the large group versus the individual, but they will actively seek them out, whereas the loner can sit by themselves and not be approached. Part of it is understandable I suppose, people want to talk to those that have common life situations, but it is tough.

I still maintain that much of the problems come from the post-modern, feel good society.

Age, I understand where you are coming from. I have noticed too that those with conditions that are curable have a different experience with those with chronic conditions. People unfortunately have a short attention span and while they are willing to give and pray for those with a short-term illness, they soon tire of someone having a condition that doesn't get better. It's almost as if they resent having to continue to pray ("What again? Havent' you been healed yet?"). They don't know how to handle a long-term illness, wanting a solution, a healing, and then are flummoxed when that doesn't happen.

Bottomline, whereas I don't see the issue being one of internal organization (I don't think there is anythingn inherently wrong with the ideas of pastors, a main speaker, etc), I do think there needs to be a paradigm shift in the thinking and the proactive encouragement of service. Some willingness to actually bring together people and their gifts and resources. Now that would be a refreshing thing to see, a position or willingness to bring together the needs of the congregation with those that can help.

Also, a renewal in the emphasis in confession and repentance. How many of the churches have some element of their worship be confessional prayer and repentance? The mega church near me does not focus on that. I remember a church i used to go to where the pastor thought through the worship service and included some element of focused confession and repentance. Now that was a service where my heart was quiet, listened, and worshipped.

I made an appointment and came in and talked to the staff and asked for prayer basically making them them group together most of the staff on hand to pray for me. The lady who was in charge of that said I had Saddleback's "A team" present. They all knew. I received my prayer and then was abandoned to deal with it myself which at that time meant watching my hands deformed when it could have been prevented. Of course, I called back asking for medical help but was told they didn't provide that. EOM. Not even a referral to MSI. Nothing. I had to figure out what MSI was to apply for it.

So the size of the church was not a factor in them not knowing because of how I handled it. I'm just pointing out this is normally how churches respond today to the average rank and file member. It is what it is and I share it because reality and truth, not denial and pretending, must be shared if we are to be authentic.

I suppose at least we deform and get kicked to the curb with Jesus rather than without Him and that's a benefit of these churches. Plus you can find intellectual and emotional stimulation there. And there is a spirituality, of course. So that's all good. Just don't get poor and sick there or you'll be kicked to the curb fast.