Evidence for God from Science

Gman wrote:

It's a bit tricky, but for me I believe He can talk to me through imagery and music as well. I remember once when I was pulling out of a church parking lot that I was attending, when an image of a bright cross with a bunch of lights appeared in front of me. I guess this was a way God was putting His stamp on it... Anyways, about a year later, this pastor turned into the president of the "Walking through the Bible" .org.

I'm also a firm believer in music as God's catalyst. I believe that God can talk to me via songs as strange as that may sound. But mostly I believe He can talk to us through others Matthew 25:35-37, or a small still voice I Kings 19:11-13.

Yes, I agree with this. If you think about it, God does talk to us through others. Take the example of the many, many Christians in far off lands, there purely to help the poor and the famished; these Christians are doing God's will. So isn't this an example God “speaking,” via his earthly Christians, who are doing his will?

DannyM wrote:Gman,
As regards prayer, for me this is a personal thing between God and me — as it should be for EVERYONE. That's not to decry the group prayer in a church among the community. But, by and large, prayer is a personal thing for the Christian, which is between himself and God. I was with an ex-girlfriend once at a family (her family) dinner, all very nice and all very sweet. But my girlfriend's dad insisted on joining hands and praying thanks to God…Well, I had never felt so uncomfortable in my life: I thought it was absolutely absurd.

“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.”

Matthew 6: 5-8

God bless.

P.S. Thanks for the message, Gman.

Gosh, I want to measure my words carefully, but I am greatly grieved that a Christian would say such a thing about family prayer. To try and apply this scripture to a family praying together in the privacy of their own home seems altogether wrong. Here in the South, many if not most Christian families pray before a meal. If the family walked out on the front lawn and began to pray loudly with the intention of being seen, I could see your issue. Otherwise, I fail to see how Matt 6: 5-8 applies at all.

jlay wrote:
Gosh, I want to measure my words carefully, but I am greatly grieved that a Christian would say such a thing about family prayer. To try and apply this scripture to a family praying together in the privacy of their own home seems altogether wrong. Here in the South, many if not most Christian families pray before a meal. If the family walked out on the front lawn and began to pray loudly with the intention of being seen, I could see your issue. Otherwise, I fail to see how Matt 6: 5-8 applies at all.

Jlay, I wasn't applying Matthew 6:5-8 to the family gathering alone. But I won't hide from the fact that I find the whole thing uncomfortable. If you pray with your wife and child, or your mother and father (immediate family) then great! I wouldn't call this praying for show and so apologise if that's what I appeared to imply. However, you wouldn't feel comfortable joining hands with your sister's latest boyfriend and praying to God, would you? Now I'm very close to my mum; we are not distant or anything, but neither of us would feel comfortable joining hands in prayer; it's utterly alien to us. But I would have to say that if you and your *immediate* family are comfortable in this then that is good. But if you do it no matter who sits at your table then I find that odd. By and large the Christian is to pray alone with Christ Jesus. This to me is a whole lot more natural and comfortable. I find joining hands around a table of people a little impersonal and, to be frank, a little bizarre.

God bless

Danny,

There are a lot of things I don't feel comfortable doing.
I don't feel comfortable confessing my sins. I don't feel comfortable being corrected when I am wrong. I can give you a long list of things contained within the word of God that make me and every other Christian uncomfortable. Do you think the people on the day of pentecost viewed the disciples behavior as a little bizzare?
I don't think that comfort has anything to do with whether something is wrong or not.

You were in THEIR home. I had a friend as a child, and their family took off their shoes when they entered the home. Guess what I did when I entered their home. I took off my shoes. Was I comfortable doing this? No, I thought it was a little strange. But I certainly wouldn't try to condemn it as wrong. It is very difficult based on your words to not conclude that you are condeming this families tradition of praying before a meal.

I wouldconsider the whole counsel of God. Acts 1:14 "They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."

Were the disciples in disobedience to Christ's guidance on prayer? I think you and I both can discern that they were not. Group prayer is not what is being condemned by Christ in Matt 6. In fact the early church was essentially based around meeting in believers homes, having a meal, and worshipping and praying together.

Jlay,

I feel totally comfortable being corrected when I'm wrong. After all, I'm wrong, so am happy on two counts: one, being shown an error, and two, learning something new. I also feel comfortable confessing my sins.

I *did* respect the ex's family and home by participating in the prayer; I merely said to Gman that I'd never felt so uncomfortable doing so.

I have to say I don't find taking my shoes off in another person's home strange at all; I find it appropriate (for the sake of a nice carpet, for example), I find it welcoming, and I find it comfortable. All this excludes the possible embarrassment of having smelly feet or holes in socks…

But to get back to my point, I think it would actually be inappropriate and offensive to the act of Christian prayer if I *did* go about praying in these circumstances you mention, as I wouldn't be truly praying at all; I'd be praying half-heartedly. I would deem this an offense to prayer. Personal faith is a big part of Christianity, and prayer should by and large be a personal thing between the Christian and Christ. But, like I have said, I don't really intend to criticise your family prayers; if it makes you comfortable then great. But I would hope you take time to pray on your own to Christ.

God bless

Danny,
Comfort is a matter of opinion. It doesn't matter that you are comfortable doing something I am not. The point is my lack of comfort or yours, does NOT determine the biblical legitimacy of a matter. Period. I assure you I can point out practices in the Christian faith, that would make anyone uncomfortable. Peter having his feet washed by Jesus comes to mind.

I would also point out that my defense of the biblical example of group prayer is by no means an attempt to lift group prayer above private prayer. I practice both. I've been comfortable and uncomfortable in both, and don't see how my 'comfort' or anyone elses has any bearing on whether it is correct or biblically faithful.

But to get back to my point, I think it would actually be inappropriate and offensive to the act of Christian prayer if I *did* go about praying in these circumstances you mention, as I wouldn't be truly praying at all; I'd be praying half-heartedly. I would deem this an offense to prayer. Personal faith is a big part of Christianity, and prayer should by and large be a personal thing between the Christian and Christ. But, like I have said, I don't really intend to criticise your family prayers; if it makes you comfortable then great. But I would hope you take time to pray on your own to Christ.

I'd be real careful on how you judge. You are now claiming to know the intentions of this person's heart. You are insinuating that because you can't be sincere in a group prayer, that the others involved can not as well. Are you prepared to say that all group prayer is not genuine and sincere?? I don't think you are, but this is where you are tip toeing.

How I pray or don't pray is not the issue. The issue, is are your being biblically correct to criticize and judge this family for including you in their pre-meal blessing. You say you are comfortable being corrected when you are wrong. I guess the proof is in the pudding.

It is interesting to point out the model of prayer Christ modeled to us, after the warning not to pray to be seen, is worded from a group perspective.
"OUR Father who art in heaven......."

Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. James 5:14

Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective. James 5:16

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.0For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." Matt 18: 19-20


Before I criticized anyone's prayer or lack thereof, I would heed the warnings of scripture. To not judge someone unless I am prepared to be judged in such manner. There are a lot of instructions on prayer in the bible, and I would dare say that none of us have faithfully fulfilled the call. So, if you are being completely biblically faithful in your prayer life, then criticize away. Otherwise, "examine yourself you see if you are in the faith." (2 cor 13:5)

jlay wrote:
Danny,

Comfort is a matter of opinion. It doesn't matter that you are comfortable doing something I am not. The point is my lack of comfort or yours, does NOT determine the biblical legitimacy of a matter. Period. I assure you I can point out practices in the Christian faith, that would make anyone uncomfortable. Peter having his feet washed by Jesus comes to mind.

I would also point out that my defense of the biblical example of group prayer is by no means an attempt to lift group prayer above private prayer. I practice both. I've been comfortable and uncomfortable in both, and don't see how my 'comfort' or anyone elses has any bearing on whether it is correct or biblically faithful.

I'd be real careful on how you judge. You are now claiming to know the intentions of this person's heart. You are insinuating that because you can't be sincere in a group prayer, that the others involved can not as well. Are you prepared to say that all group prayer is not genuine and sincere?? I don't think you are, but this is where you are tip toeing.

How I pray or don't pray is not the issue. The issue, is are your being biblically correct to criticize and judge this family for including you in their pre-meal blessing. You say you are comfortable being corrected when you are wrong. I guess the proof is in the pudding.

Jlay,

Biblical legitimacy has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying for me to place myself in a form of prayer that made me uncomfortable would be wrong as I would not be praying a genuine prayer. Hence I would not place myself in such a position.

You are reading me wrong as I am not insinuating that my ex-girlfriends family was not sincere at all; I was merely talking from a personal perspective. And I did ask you the question of whether or not you would feel comfortable praying with your sister's latest boyfriend at your family dinner table…? It was a genuine question. I maintain that prayer should be from the heart and for this to be possible one must feel comfortable in prayer. I am, now for the third time, stating that, if you and your immediate family feel at ease in such prayer then I think that is*good*. I have repeated that I would not consider this to be for show.

And as far as “judging anyone” is concerned, I believe we are entitled to judge. Jesus set the standard and was not afraid to judge. After all, we all have a standard we try to aspire to, and when you have a standard, it is natural to judge oneself and others who fall short of or wantonly neglect such a standard. It is built within human nature. Jesus had a human (as well as a divine) nature.
My objections are merely based on my own beliefs, and I don't think I have done anything more than give you my own take on this.

God bless

First, I want to try and tie this back to the original point of the thread. Danny my goal is not to get in an argument with you. Your statement just caught me that off guard. To be candid, I am shocked that a Christian would say such a thing. It truly boggles my mind.

In this thread we are talking about experiencing God. Let us suppose you were a non-believer. And the family decided to open with a blessing before mealtime. A non-believer might be inclined to inquire about prayer, or matters related to the Faith. Which in turn opens up a door to share the gospel. Which, BTW we are commanded to do. Having ministered and shared the gospel, I can attest that the Gospel makes people UNCOMFORTABLE. Period. But we are to share. That is to bring our personal, private EXPERIENCE out of the closet (pardon the term) and into the World. As Jesus said, "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:16. I totally fail to see how a family in the confines of their own home including you in a prayer could be seen as absurd. The claim you make is what I see as absurd.

Jlay,

Biblical legitimacy has nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying for me to place myself in a form of prayer that made me uncomfortable would be wrong as I would not be praying a genuine prayer. Hence I would not place myself in such a position.

It has everything to do with it. You quoted Jesus from Matthew in your original complaint. That makes a pretty clear statement that you are making a biblical argument against what they did. No?

You are reading me wrong as I am not insinuating that my ex-girlfriends family was not sincere at all; I was merely talking from a personal perspective.

I don't see how I am reading you wrong.

And I did ask you the question of whether or not you would feel comfortable praying with your sister's latest boyfriend at your family dinner table…?

I've never felt uncomfortable bowing my head in prayer before a meal. Not in the least. But so what. What does my comfort have to do with it?

I maintain that prayer should be from the heart and for this to be possible one must feel comfortable in prayer.

Scripturally, How would you defend that one must feel comfortable in prayer? If you can not defend this scripturally I suggest you repent of this thinking.

And as far as “judging anyone” is concerned, I believe we are entitled to judge.

I agree. I am making judgments on your post. And yes, there is a right way to judge and a wrong way. It seems pretty clear in your post that you made a judgment that this family including you in their pre-meal blessing was wrong. You provided a scripture to try and make your case. I am pointing out that you are in error to use this scripture to defend this position. In this thread we are talking about experiencing God, and you apparently have a problem with how this family experiences God in their home. Seems incredibly odd too me.

jlay wrote:First, I want to try and tie this back to the original point of the thread. Danny my goal is not to get in an argument with you. Your statement just caught me that off guard. To be candid, I can't beleive a Christian would say such a thing. It truly boggles my mind. .

Jlay, I know you are not trying to argue with me. It's fine. If there is an error in my thinking then I'm happy to be challenged.

jlay wrote: Having ministered and shared the gospel, I can attest that the Gospel makes people UNCOMFORTABLE. Period. But we are to share. That is to bring our personal, private EXPERIENCE out of the closet (pardon the term) and into the World. As Jesus said, "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." Matthew 5:16. I totally fail to see how a family in the confines of their own home including you in a prayer could be seen as absurd. The claim you make is what I see as absurd. .

I said I found it absurd. I probably should have said “bizarre” as that would have been a more precise description of my feelings at the time. But I think you should realise that I wasn't calling the family absurd but was calling the whole thing absurd. I didn't come away thinking “that family is absurd/bizarre for praying like that”; no, I just came away think *the experience* was absurd/bizarre. (I now wish to continue with term “bizarre” only from here on.)

jlay wrote:It has everything to do with it. You quoted Jesus from Matthew in your original complaint. That makes a pretty clear statement that you are making a biblical argument against what they did. No? .

Yes but my Matthew 6:5-8 quote was mainly to point out that we are to pray in our closet (or place of solitude) and not among men. Matthew 26:36-46 you see Jesus going away to pray alone, even though the disciples are with him. Prayer is between man and God. Also see Luke 22:39-42. The LORD is our God, our Father, and our prayers to him should be easy and natural.

You are reading me wrong as I am not insinuating that my ex-girlfriends family was not sincere at all; I was merely talking from a personal perspective.

jlay wrote:I don't see how I am reading you wrong. .

They may well have been sincere; I just find it a bizarre thing to do from a personal perspective. However, I joined in as a guest in their home. I fail to see how you fail to see that you are reading me wrong…

jlay wrote:I've never felt uncomfortable bowing my head in prayer before a meal. Not in the least. But so what. What does my comfort have to do with it? .

Like I said, praying to our LORD should be an easy, natural and comfortable thing. I'm a little worried that you do not have this comfort, Jlay.

jlay wrote:Scripturally, How would you defend that one must feel comfortable in prayer? If you can not defend this scripturally I suggest you repent of this thinking. .

How do I defend this scripturally? Everywhere! The whole of scriptures are filled with God's love for his creation. Why on earth would you feel uncomfortable in your personal prayer with God? Scripturally, how do you defend being *uncomfortable* in prayer to such a wonderful, loving God?

jlay wrote:I agree. I am making judgments on your post. And yes, there is a right way to judge and a wrong way. It seems pretty clear in your post that you made a judgment that this family including you in their pre-meal blessing was wrong. You provided a scripture to try and make your case. I am pointing out that you are in error to use this scripture to defend this position. In this thread we are talking about experiencing God, and you apparently have a problem with how this family experiences God in their home. Seems incredibly odd too me.

I believe I am totally correct in providing that scripture as it highlights the personal, private prayer between man and God. I think it is a wonderful verse. Admittedly it appeared I was equating the family with the hypocrites in and out of the synagogues, but that was not the aim. The aim was mainly to highlight entering one's closet (place of solitude) to pray with our Father.

I do not have any problem with the family; I merely presented this example to Gman. Please do not think I have lived day and night since bearing some problem with the family. My problem at the time was having to sit through such an unnatural prayer; unnatural for me. And yes I did find it bizarre that they would have me pray with them.

God bless

cslewislover wrote:For what it's worth, when I was young in Christ I had a real hard time with praying with others. As I grew in Christ and got used to what He wanted, I got more comfortable. Part of it is, I was always shy anyway, so . . . I don't think we're required to hold hands, so if physical contact is part of the problem, I don't think it's worth arguing about. Some are comfortable with that, some may not be; I really don't think it's required! (And I'm not talking about the "laying on of hands" - different subject.)

I don't think Jlay and I are arguing, CS L. But can I just throw another example at you and see what you think? One of my best friends was a heroin addict who reformed at a Christian rehab out in the sticks. He did really well and became a born-again Christian. Every year the rehab manor (and it *was* a manor) had an event, like a fun day. But near the end there would be Christian bands singing songs and everyone singing along. I was fine with this, I guess, but then all of a sudden many of those in the audience/crowd starting raising their hands in the air, eyes closed, and seemingly in some sort of trance, singing along with huge gusto. Now I didn't have to join in, and of course I *did not*, but this is another occasion I found completely bizarre. Have you ever experienced this? I understand it is a connection with God that they felt, but it is just this whole public outpouring that just seemed, well, weird...?

God bless

DannyM wrote:

cslewislover wrote:For what it's worth, when I was young in Christ I had a real hard time with praying with others. As I grew in Christ and got used to what He wanted, I got more comfortable. Part of it is, I was always shy anyway, so . . . I don't think we're required to hold hands, so if physical contact is part of the problem, I don't think it's worth arguing about. Some are comfortable with that, some may not be; I really don't think it's required! (And I'm not talking about the "laying on of hands" - different subject.)

I don't think Jlay and I are arguing, CS L. But can I just throw another example at you and see what you think? One of my best friends was a heroin addict who reformed at a Christian rehab out in the sticks. He did really well and became a born-again Christian. Every year the rehab manor (and it *was* a manor) had an event, like a fun day. But near the end there would be Christian bands singing songs and everyone singing along. I was fine with this, I guess, but then all of a sudden many of those in the audience/crowd starting raising their hands in the air, eyes closed, and seemingly in some sort of trance, singing along with huge gusto. Now I didn't have to join in, and of course I *did not*, but this is another occasion I found completely bizarre. Have you ever experienced this? I understand it is a connection with God that they felt, but it is just this whole public outpouring that just seemed, well, weird...?

God bless

Ok, I didn't mean to quash a conversation.

I find that odd too, and a bit scary. *coughs* Some of the churches here - it's common - but actually not as much as it used to be. I'm personally demonstrative, but I just have a hard time with groups of people all doing the same thing at once. It seems like a lot of people must be doing it because the other people are doing it. If I feel like doing that in private, during my personal prayer and devotion, then I do it. But I don't do that in public. The most I'll do is raise my hands partly, with my palms up. That's my public demonstration.

cslewislover wrote:

DannyM wrote:

cslewislover wrote:For what it's worth, when I was young in Christ I had a real hard time with praying with others. As I grew in Christ and got used to what He wanted, I got more comfortable. Part of it is, I was always shy anyway, so . . . I don't think we're required to hold hands, so if physical contact is part of the problem, I don't think it's worth arguing about. Some are comfortable with that, some may not be; I really don't think it's required! (And I'm not talking about the "laying on of hands" - different subject.)

I don't think Jlay and I are arguing, CS L. But can I just throw another example at you and see what you think? One of my best friends was a heroin addict who reformed at a Christian rehab out in the sticks. He did really well and became a born-again Christian. Every year the rehab manor (and it *was* a manor) had an event, like a fun day. But near the end there would be Christian bands singing songs and everyone singing along. I was fine with this, I guess, but then all of a sudden many of those in the audience/crowd starting raising their hands in the air, eyes closed, and seemingly in some sort of trance, singing along with huge gusto. Now I didn't have to join in, and of course I *did not*, but this is another occasion I found completely bizarre. Have you ever experienced this? I understand it is a connection with God that they felt, but it is just this whole public outpouring that just seemed, well, weird...?

God bless

Ok, I didn't mean to quash a conversation.

I find that odd too, and a bit scary. *coughs* Some of the churches here - it's common - but actually not as much as it used to be. I'm personally demonstrative, but I just have a hard time with groups of people all doing the same thing at once. It seems like a lot of people must be doing it because the other people are doing it. If I feel like doing that in private, during my personal prayer and devotion, then I do it. But I don't do that in public. The most I'll do is raise my hands partly, with my palms up. That's my public demonstration.

Hey I didn't think you quashed anything CS L.

Yeah, well when I noticed all this going on I thought I gotta get outta here so had to weave politely in and out of all these transfixed Christians, but they were all oblivious to me. My friend, who'd obviously seen the look on my face, came out afterwards and just said with a smile, "Yeah, weird 'aint it?" But he was used to it and didn't seem that shocked. Each to their own, I guess, and the more Christians in the world the better. Perhaps I'm just too conservative when it comes to all that. I'm now a little worried that Jlay does this and that I've offended him again. Hope not Jlay

God bless

How do I defend this scripturally? Everywhere! The whole of scriptures are filled with God's love for his creation. Why on earth would you feel uncomfortable in your personal prayer with God? Scripturally, how do you defend being *uncomfortable* in prayer to such a wonderful, loving God?

Danny. there is absolutely NO scriptural backing the fact that prayer is a matter of comfort. There are a lot of reasons a person might feel uncomfortable in prayer. Every Christian goes through ebbs and tides in regards to their prayer life. There are times where one might be experiencing tremendous shame for a sin they committed. In such, they might 'hide' themselves from God and avoid prayer. Having lead a prayer group I have been around several Christians who confessed they were uncomfortable in prayer. Not because they didn't want to, but because they had not been discipled and nutured in this area. They felt incompetent in this area, and thus uncomfortable.

Danny, i can assure you, as one who ministers the gospel, I am huge fan of prayer. It is an intimate part of my life both privately and corporately. I have shown you that Jesus examples on prayer are not a condemnation of group prayer, but of hypocritcal prayer. (Praying to be seen)

Danny, regarding the singing. I have been at many events where the actions of other believers seemed bizarre too me. And made me uncomfortable. Does that mean their actions are wrong? No. Just because Bob is so moved by worship that he raises his hands doesn't mean I will be. I have a friend who is the ten time gospel song writer of the year. Many times tears stream down his face as he sings. It would certainly seem bizarre to some. Especially those who don't know Christ. I can give you a number of examples of worship in the bible that would make you uncomfortable if you were involved in them.

jlay wrote:Danny. there is absolutely NO scriptural backing the fact that prayer is a matter of comfort. There are a lot of reasons a person might feel uncomfortable in prayer. Every Christian goes through ebbs and tides in regards to their prayer life. There are times where one might be experiencing tremendous shame for a sin they committed. In such, they might 'hide' themselves from God and avoid prayer. Having lead a prayer group I have been around several Christians who confessed they were uncomfortable in prayer. Not because they didn't want to, but because they had not been discipled and nutured in this area. They felt incompetent in this area, and thus uncomfortable.

Danny, i can assure you, as one who ministers the gospel, I am huge fan of prayer. It is an intimate part of my life both privately and corporately. I have shown you that Jesus examples on prayer are not a condemnation of group prayer, but of hypocritcal prayer. (Praying to be seen)

Danny, regarding the singing. I have been at many events where the actions of other believers seemed bizarre too me. And made me uncomfortable. Does that mean their actions are wrong? No. Just because Bob is so moved by worship that he raises his hands doesn't mean I will be. I have a friend who is the ten time gospel song writer of the year. Many times tears stream down his face as he sings. It would certainly seem bizarre to some. Especially those who don't know Christ. I can give you a number of examples of worship in the bible that would make you uncomfortable if you were involved in them.

Jlay, I would say that the scriptural evidence is immense in that God is Love, hence our personal prayer to God should be easy and comforting. But of course there is no scripture telling us this; just as there is none telling us or even indicating that prayer should be uncomfortable. However, I think my position holds the weight because God is clearly full of love and prayer to our Father should also be that of ease in his love.

Having said all of that, I'm not trying to damn any Christian/s who feel uncomfortable or who indulge in prayer that I would find uncomfortable and bizarre. I was merely making a personal observation and not trying to be judgemental. I do hope you can see the difference here, brother, as the last person/s I would wish to offend are my fellow Christians.