Walking with Dinosaurs

[robyn hill]

Touchingcloth, sometimes you kill me, reciting sonnets and whistling rainbows?! Funny stuff.

[McMurdo]

Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.

Crocodile??

His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

Crocodile??

He makes the depths churn like a boiling cauldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

[Fresh Water] Crocodile??

All I am saying is that the biblical descriptions fit better with the thousands of stories, illustrations and sober descriptions that exist throughout the world describing large serpent like and in some cases fire-breathing dragons than with anything we know now.

McM

[Gabrielman]

All I am saying is that the biblical descriptions fit better with the thousands of stories, illustrations and sober descriptions that exist throughout the world describing large serpent like and in some cases fire-breathing dragons than with anything we know now.

Those are all over capitol hill! They are not extinct!!! LOL just look for them there and you will find them!!!!!! (I couldn't help it!!!!! I have nothing useful to add here!!!)
However look at the world culture, everywhere there are descriptions of dragons of many types in all cutlers around the world, so it is a little fishy! Perhaps at some time there were creatures that were like this, not dinosaurs, but maybe something else entirely! This thread is interesting....

[Telstra Robs]

My bible (NIV version) has notes for certain words at the bottom of the page if the word might be meaning something else.

In Job 40, it says that the Behemoth is possibly the elephant or the hippopotamus and the leviathan is possibly the crocodile.

[Canuckster1127]

Look at the behemoth, which I made along with you and which feeds on grass like an ox.

Crocodile??

His snorting throws out flashes of light; his eyes are like the rays of dawn.
Firebrands stream from his mouth; sparks of fire shoot out.
Smoke pours from his nostrils as from a boiling pot over a fire of reeds.
His breath sets coals ablaze, and flames dart from his mouth.

Crocodile??

He makes the depths churn like a boiling cauldron and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.

[Fresh Water] Crocodile??

All I am saying is that the biblical descriptions fit better with the thousands of stories, illustrations and sober descriptions that exist throughout the world describing large serpent like and in some cases fire-breathing dragons than with anything we know now.

McM

What makes you believe that such descriptions are literal and not poetic metaphors?

Your quoting of the biblical verses, which I assume you realize, are laid out even in English in a manner reflective of poetry and there is a great deal of parallelism present.

Apart from attempting to connect Job and Beowulf literarily across how many years, language and cultural barriers, what physical evidence do you have to offer as to the presence of dragons/dinosaurs. Shouldn't there be common strata fossil beds to support your claim? Have we just not found them?

There's about as much literary themes for centaurs, mermaids, satyrs, fauns etc. as there is for dragons. Human imagination and myth may tie to something in terms of a collective memory for which the original is no longer directly known, but not necessarily and the more tenuous the connections you draw, the less literal you must be in making those connections. It appears to me that this line of connection is moving counter-intuitively and seeking to become more literal in direct contradiction to the literary forms you're dealing with.

I think the idea of the hippopotumus and crocodile are quite plausible given the type of literature and the literary forms present. It could certainly be something else, maybe even some form of dinosaur (of which there are many modern day specimins present on a smaller scale that require very little imagination to make bigger.) It's quite a stretch however to make the connections I see here being attempted.

blessings,

bart

[jlay]

There's about as much literary themes for centaurs, mermaids, satyrs, fauns etc. as there is for dragons.

You think so? I don't think that is accruate at all. The dragon spans different cultures and continents.

Maybe Job was just speaking in poetic metaphor when he said, ""I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."

Why then are these animals referred to literally just prior, in Job 39
26"Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south?

27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?

28 He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.

29 From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar.

[touchingcloth]

There's about as much literary themes for centaurs, mermaids, satyrs, fauns etc. as there is for dragons.

You think so? I don't think that is accruate at all. The dragon spans different cultures and continents.

Depends what you class as dragons really. Certainly the "western dragon" that's winged and scaley and breathes fire isn't as widespread as general myths about large reptilian/serpentine critters that English speakers have come to call dragons alongside more traditional western myths.

Don't forget that dinosaurs spanned continents, just as lizards are found the world over today; it's quite possible that ancient finds of dinosaur fossils sparked dragon myths in entirely separate areas.

[Telstra Robs]

There's about as much literary themes for centaurs, mermaids, satyrs, fauns etc. as there is for dragons.

You think so? I don't think that is accruate at all. The dragon spans different cultures and continents.

Depends what you class as dragons really. Certainly the "western dragon" that's winged and scaley and breathes fire isn't as widespread as general myths about large reptilian/serpentine critters that English speakers have come to call dragons alongside more traditional western myths.

Don't forget that dinosaurs spanned continents, just as lizards are found the world over today; it's quite possible that ancient finds of dinosaur fossils sparked dragon myths in entirely separate areas.

Not to mention that the characteristics of the "dragon" are completely different in different areas. The most noticeable being that in the West, the dragon is believed to be malevolent , whereas it is believed to be benevolent in Asia.

[Canuckster1127]

There's about as much literary themes for centaurs, mermaids, satyrs, fauns etc. as there is for dragons.

You think so? I don't think that is accruate at all. The dragon spans different cultures and continents.

Maybe Job was just speaking in poetic metaphor when he said, ""I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted."

Why then are these animals referred to literally just prior, in Job 39
26"Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread his wings toward the south?

27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build his nest on high?

28 He dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is his stronghold.

29 From there he seeks out his food;
his eyes detect it from afar.

You apply the same hermeneutic to an entire book?

Look at the form of the passage you give above. It's laid out in poetic form and employs metaphor. The word in the passage following speaks of something that is contemporary to the hawk and the eagle and known to Job and the readers of that time. There's fossil evidence for those animals being contemporary with humans. Why would there not be fossil evidence for dinosaurs with man? What makes more sense in this context? The text is speaking of something other than a dinosaur, which by the original poster's own admission is a stretch for the word employed here, or the fossil record for dinosaurs as contemporary with humans has just happened to not be discovered? I'll admit either scenario is possible. Which is more plausible?

Attempting to connect Job to Beowulf and appealing to dragons is a pretty remarkable stretch. The issue for me isn't the reliability of the Bible; it's the hermeneutic of those attempting from a YEC position to reverse engineer support for an already espoused position that appears to equate their hermeneutic in this instance with the scripture itself. It doesn't measure up for me on either the physical evidence or the interpretive evidence textually.

[McMurdo]

St John Damascene, 8th CenturyAD
"Some people contrive that dragons can both take the human form and turn into serpents, sometimes small, sometimes huge, differing in body length and size, and sometimes, as was already stated above, having turned into people, start to associate with them, appear to steal women and consort with them; so we would ask [those who tell such stories]: how many intelligent natures did God create? And if they do not know the answer, we will respond: two - I mean angels and humans... So He created the two intelligent natures; but if a dragon changes its form while associating with people, becoming at one moment a serpent, at another a man... so it follows with all possible clarity that dragons are intelligent beings exceeding men greatly, which has not [ever] been true, and never will be."
"Let them also say who in particular tells about it [a dragon]? For we trust the teaching of Moses, and, more exactly, the Holy Spirit, having spoken through [the prophet]. This [teaching] reads: And God brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever [Adam] called every living creature, that was the name thereof (cf. Gen. 2:19). Hence, a dragon was one of the animals. I am not telling you, after all, that there are no dragons; dragons exist but they are serpents borne of other serpents. Being just born and young, they are small; but when they grow up and get mature, they become big and fat so that exceed the other serpents in length and size. It is said they grow up more than thirty cubits; as for their thickness, they get as thick as a big log. Dio the Roman who wrote the history of Roman empire and republic, reports the following: one day, when Regulus, a Roman consul, was fighting against Carthage, a dragon suddenly crept up and settled behind the wall of the Roman army. The Romans killed it by order of Regulus, excoriated it and sent the hide to the Roman senate. When the dragon's hide, as Dio says, was measured up by order of the senate, it happened to be, amazing, one hundred and twenty feet long, and the thickness was fitting to the length."
"There is one more kind of dragons; those have wide head, goldish eyes and horny protuberances on the back of the head. They also have a beard [protruding] out of the throat; this kind of dragons is called "agaphodemons" and it is said they have no faces. This dragon is a sort of beasts, like the rest of the animals, for it has a beard, like a goat, and horn at the back of its head. Its eyes are big and goldish. These dragons can be both big and small. All serpent kinds are poisonous, except dragons, for they do not emit poison."

Pliny the Elder (1st century AD)
Africa produces elephants, beyond the deserts of the Syrtes, and in Mauritania; they are found also in the. countries of the Æthiopians and the Troglodytæ as mentioned above. But it is India that produces the largest, as well as the dragon, which is perpetually at war with the elephant, and is itself of so enormous a size, as easily to envelope the elephants with its folds, and encircle them in its coils. The contest is equally fatal to both; the elephant, vanquished, falls to the earth, and by its weight, crushes the dragon which is entwined around it.
The sagacity which every animal exhibits in its own behalf is wonderful, but in these it is remarkably so. The dragon has much difficulty in climbing up to so great a height, and therefore, watching the road, which bears marks of their footsteps when going to feed, it darts down upon them from a lofty tree. The elephant knows that it is quite unable to struggle against the folds of the serpent, and so seeks for trees or rocks against which to rub itself. The dragon is on its guard against this, and tries to prevent it, by first of all confining the legs of the elephant with the folds of its tail; while the elephant, on the other hand, endeavours to disengage itself with its trunk. The dragon, however, thrusts its head into its nostrils, and thus, at the same moment, stops the breath and wounds the most tender parts. When it is met unexpectedly, the dragon raises itself up, faces its opponent, and flies more especially at the eyes; this is the reason why elephants are so often found blind, and worn to a skeleton with hunger and misery. What other cause can one assign for such mighty strifes as these, except that Nature is desirous, as it were, to make an exhibition for herself, in pitting such opponents against each other?
There is another story, too, told in relation to these combats --the blood of the elephant, it is said, is remarkably cold; for which reason, in the parching heats of summer, it is sought by the dragon with remarkable avidity. It lies, therefore, coiled up and concealed in the rivers, in wait for the elephants, when they come to drink; upon which it darts out, fastens itself around the trunk, and then fixes its teeth behind the ear, that being the only place which the elephant cannot protect with the trunk. The dragons, it is said, are of such vast size, that they can swallow the whole of the blood; consequently, the elephant, being thus drained of its blood, falls to the earth exhausted; while the dragon, intoxicated with the draught, is crushed beneath it, and so shares its fate.
Æthiopia produces dragons, not so large as those of India, but still, twenty cubits in length. The only thing that surprises me is, how Juba came to believe that they have crests. The Æthiopians are known as the Asachæi, among whom they most abound; and we are told, that on those coasts four or five of them are found twisted and interlaced together like so many osiers in a hurdle, and thus setting sail, with their heads erect, they are borne along upon the waves, to find better sources of nourishment in Arabia.

St Isidore of Seville (7th century AD)

The dragon is the largest serpent, and in fact the largest animal on earth. Its name in Latin is draco, derived from the Greek name drakon. When it comes out of its cave, it disturbs the air. It has a crest, a small mouth, and a narrow throat. Its strength is in its tail rather than its teeth; it does harm by beating, not by biting. It has no poison and needs none to kill, because it kills by entangling. Not even the elephant is safe from the dragon; hiding where elephants travel, the dragon tangles their feet with its tail and kills the elephant by suffocating it. Dragons live in the burning heat of India and Ethiopia. (St Isidore of Seville, Etymologies, Book 12, 4:4-5

I think I need to go full circle and get back to my original quotes. These are not poetic, not fanciful, not stories, but they are sober descriptions. The first account actually refutes some of the more fanciful accounts. Were these people just making up stories?

And the descriptions in Job of eagles, horses, ostriches etc, whilst using plenty of poetic language, actually sound like the creatures they describe. Do Crocs feed on grass like an ox? Is this good poetry?

[touchingcloth]

Poetically you could certainly say that a crocodile "feeds on the grass" because of their low stature. Poetically I guess you could also say that giraffes "drink the sky" because of their lofty necks. If the latter had been in Job, what - hypothetically - would your interpretation of it be?

[Canuckster1127]

The greek word "drakon" means snake. The Latin word Draco transliterates from the greek. Many of the quotes you provide here are simply speaking of serpents and not "dragons' in the sense you're hoping equates with dinosaurs.

I've asked several times already, but it appears to be being passed over. Is there any physical evidence you can offer of men and dinosaurs coexisting?

[touchingcloth]

Is there any physical evidence you can offer of men and dinosaurs coexisting?

Come on Canuckster...have you never heard of the Paluxy river??

[Canuckster1127]

Is there any physical evidence you can offer of men and dinosaurs coexisting?

Come on Canuckster...have you never heard of the Paluxy river??

I certainly have and am prepared to address it if necessary. I'd be interested in McMurdo's response however.

[dayage]

Job traded goods in locations such as Ethiopia (Job 28:14-19). This means that he was probably familiar with the animals along the Nile.

Leviathan,
William Bartram described alligators much the same way in 1791. He even said that smoke came from the nostrils. He mentioned that the smoke was water vapor. The other descriptions of where it lived and what it looked like fit the crocodile perfectly. The heart as hard as stone and the fire are symbolic of its fierceness. That literal heart would mean it was fossilized. Fire may also refer to the color of the inside of the mouth. His rows of shields are scales. The doors of his face are his jaws. A crocodiles eyes reflect light and open in a rising motion, like the sun.

Behemoth,
Sounds like an elephant. The tail moves like a cedar, it is not the size of a cedar. Cedars are stiff and move in a swaying fashion. If Job was even thinking about size, the African elephant has a tail about as long as its trunk.