Discussion about death, immortal soul vs. soul sleep...

[cslewislover]

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I can't find the other discussion.

I am interested in hearing where, the side that holds to 'alive in heaven immediately at the moment of earthly death', says Lazarus was those 4 days he was dead? Also how is death an enemy if the dead go to heaven immediately? Just wondering how these simple points are reconciled through this view. Thx.
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I hadn't thought about Lazarus too much before - where he was - except in thinking how the poor guy had to die twice. But it would be my understanding that he went to Sheol or Abraham's Bosom, since Jesus had not died and been resurrected yet. Once Jesus did his work, heaven was opened to believers. I don't have the verse off-hand, but it says somewhere that while he was dead, Jesus went down to the captives (in Sheol or Abraham's Bosom). He gave them the gospel so that they'd have the opportunity to accept Him and go to heaven as well. So Lazarus simply went there, and came back from there.

I think death is considered an enemy because it wasn't meant to be, originally. Besides causing us so much pain for our loved ones, which wasn't meant to be either. In the new heaven and new earth, there will be no more tears . . .

[cslewislover]

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6. In my Hard Sayings of the Bible (pp 222-223), this doesn't get it's own entry, but is found within the discussion of 2 Samuel 12:21-23, about what happened to David and Bathsheba's son. There, the commentator says that the dead "know nothing" from only our point of view here on earth, since it was written as the perspective from "under the sun." But David, in speaking of his son, took the eternal perspective, not the 'here and now" perspective of Ecclesiastes. The commentator refers the reader to Jn 9:4, where Jesus himself seems to say something regarding "no further reward" for the dead--that when it is night no one will be able to work--our work for Him on this earth will be over once our physical bodies die. If I find anything different, I will post again.

John 5:28 is about the resurrection of the dead. By itself, without the rest of scripture, it could be taken either way. But it is seen as the bodily resurrection at the day of judgment by most. Obviously, our bodies are left after we die. There have been very few that have been transported to heaven with their physical bodies. You can't prove by this verse that our souls are still in our bodies, or that our bodies and souls are kind-of the same (or not). Those ideas would depend on other verses. In the book I mention above, it does have a section on these verses, but in discussing works, not possible soul sleep.

[B. W.]

Let me expound a bit more on cslewislover's post concerning Ecc 9 and John 5 and add more info...

ECC 9:1-6 a brief Bible study verse by verse

Ecclesiastes 9:3, “This is an evil in all that is done under the sun that the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.” ESV

Notice the phrase — they go to the Dead. Now look at Ezekiel 26:20 and then note Numbers 16:32-33. The principles are clear — when one dies they do go somewhere other than the physical grave where their mortal suit resides.

Proverbs 9:18 also hints at this too and Proverbs 7:27 gives more clues. Ezekiel 31:17, 18 describe the principle that a multitude inhabits the realm of the dead together and are gathered there.

Ezekiel 32:18, 22, 23 - then describes this part of this realm as being a round pit. Embedded within the walls are literally chamber sepulchers. Notice that ALL those that share a common offense were placed individually inside these cells but are all together in the same location in this round pit also known as sheol / hell.

They reside and are gathered together how Proverbs 9:18 reveals: “But he knoweth not that the shades are there; that her guests are in the depths of the nether-world.” JPS

Ezekiel 32 also brings about this principle of gathering and they are not sleeping either just as Ezekiel 32:21 states: someone will be speaking to those that reside there and in Ezekiel 32:31 it mentions one named Pharaoh who sees as well as can feel. A soul sleeper cannot see not feel. Seeing and feeling as well as hearing denote cognizance. This is also in line with what Job 26:5, 6 brings about how the shades (the Dead) tremble.

Again note that Proverbs 7:27 described the dead residing in chambers - cheder (2315 strong) which word meaning indicates various types of rooms, spaces, enclosures per context it is used in the bible just as Ezekiel tells of.

Therefore the place of the dead is a place where the departed leave their physical bodies behind to rot while their shade / spiritual parts are gathered with others of like mind in a holding area — a prison just as Isaiah 24:22 reveals.

So a biblical principle is established: When one dies their spirit / shade part lives on and is gathered with others of like mind and placed in cells or rooms. They are still alive and cognizant and not asleep.

Next Verse

Ecclesiastes 9:4, “But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion."

This verse reveals the following principles:

He who is joined to the living Lord has hope. Though we are classed as dogs (sinners) God transforms those that have joined themselves to the Lord into kings and priest in this mortal life. We are remembered in the book of life where our names are inscribed. These that believe in the Lord Jesus Christ have joined themselves with the living as Christ himself teaches.

Satan roars like a lion seeking whom to devour (1 Peter 5:8). Those that join death's lion and share its pride have no hope are banished from the Lord along with this devouring loin. Matthew 25:41 and 2 Thessalonians 1:9

Principle being spoken in Ecclesiastes is this: join your self to the living Lord and forsake the pride of the dead lion. In fact the author continues the theme of being aware that God will bring one to account so beware how you live before God!

Next,

Ecclesiastes 9:5, “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten.”

Why — because: Ecclesiastes 9:6, “Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.” ESV

Below revived from older postings on this subject on his forum:

They have no more share in the land of mortals and this means they have been cut of from mortal life, separated from it, and no more share in it. Instead they found a place where the wicked have no rest, a place where the dead lion devours, where they are banished from God and hope forever. Where they are held in punishment awaiting the resurrection of the dead which raises the existing spiritual body of a person to his/her final domain along with their revived body.

Look again at Ecclesiastes 9:6 explains what is forgotten and why no memory on earth will remain of such persons mentioned as they have no more share in anything done under the sun — in other words they do not come back to this planet — this mortal life under the sun they'll no nothing about any more and be forgotten by those living years, centuries, eons later.

I do not want to sound rude but go to a graveyard and read these verses out loud and you may get a better understanding of what these verses mean and note which graves have the most flowers compared with those that do not. How many people lived in ancient times or even 200 years ago? Are not their thoughts and dreams forgotten? No memory of them remains. Unless there were famous and even then, time moves on and their history will fade too.

Please note that the doctrine of the Resurrection of the dead involves the natural body dying and the spiritual waiting to be raised either to glorification to live with God forever without sin or everlasting contempt — recompense in the lake of fire. The Resurrection of the dead, you could say, seals the deal. 1 Corinthians 15:42-58

Many mistakenly confuse the event of physical death and its immediate judgment with the resurrection of the dead and the final sentencing of judgment. Doing so, they mistakenly combine the two events into some kind of sleep state nonsense and or annihilationism.

The bible uses images that people can relate too. For example, the dead look asleep. To awake means arise from slumber. When you slumber, are you dead or still alive? Do you dream? How the bible describes when one goes to sleep with their ancestors, or the sleep of death, simply means they have passed on and now reside elsewhere with others who have passed on i.e. gather where the shades reside.

The dead will never know this mortal life again — they will awake first to judgment and wait for the final sentencing. Immediately after death they experience in the prison, pit, Sheol, grave, Hades their own living nightmares reaping what they have sown until the final sentencing takes them to a new living reality forever in the lake of fire.

Do not believe this? What of Hebrews 9:27 then it states: “ And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment…” ESV -- Notice It does not say — soul sleep but judgment. To be judge requires cognizance — not slumber and the experience of that judgment as well…

Immediately after death comes what? The word 'Judgment' translated here means trial, separation process, selection process; a verdict arrived at, a sentence commuted. One can correlate that the prison, pit, Sheol described in the bible is liken to a holding center, or intake area, where inmates are temporarily housed till final sentence is decreed and then they go serve their sentence elsewhere.

After all, 'there is no rest for the wicked!' 'And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment!' This is a true statement: “the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment.”

The doctrines of soul sleep and annihilationism's 'when your dead you are dead' are based on false assumptions and not on biblical principles founded firmly by the solid truth of the bible pertaining to the very subject.

Now onto John 5 and few points…

Look at John 5:24-29: “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.” ESV

Notice that Jesus said the hour is now here when the dead will hear. How can they hear if they can't due to being in a state of non-existent bliss or sleep indicted by knowing nothing? Think about it…

Check Ecclesiastes 9:4 again and see how it begins to make more sense placed where it is in that text and in the light of John 5:24-29.

2 Timothy 3:16

Now let's look further into 2 Samuel 14:14

Let's look at the principle that the wise woman spoke in 2 Samuel 14:2. Her words have more prophetic depth to them than I think she may have realized but again - she was wise! In a few words she describes the basic tenants of scripture tied to solid principles found from Genesis thru Revelations.

2 Samuel 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away life, but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him…” NASB

Let me break it apart for you in brief:

2 Samuel 14:14, "For we will surely die and are like water spilled on the ground which cannot be gathered up again…” NASB

Genesis 2:17 is brought out here and confirmed in Romans 5:12. Water spilled on ground signifies what the writer of Ecclesiastes laments — life is short - vanity and grasping for the wind — Ecclesiastes 8:10, 11, 12, 13 — Judgment awaits.- Ecclesiastes 8:7, 8 and Ecclesiastes 12:14 - The one who made known what happens after one dies was Jesus Christ! Read what he said on the subject.

2 Samuel 14:14: “Yet God does not take away life…” NASB

This reveals the principle of God character: God is a God of the living — not the dead as Luke 20:38 uncovers and Ecclesiastes 3:11 solidifies as well as Ecclesiastes 3:14 confirms.

God does not take away life; yet, he can slay mortal life (flesh) in order to bring one into judgment --
1 Samuel 2:6. Since we live on in that shade / spiritual state, life is not taken away. Why — because the Gifts and callings of God are without repentance is another principle that is established here as well. There is no such thing as annihilationism or soul sleep as these violate God's character and dares him to deny himself to do so.

2 Samuel 14:14, “…but plans ways so that the banished one will not be cast out from him…” NASB

God plans ways so that the banished one (a sinner) will not be cast out from him… implies what Romans 5:8, 9, 10, 11 teaches. What Jesus himself taught John 3:15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21 - Jesus is the fulfillment of that plan and the only way a person will not be banished away from God. If one does not enter by God's plan (the gospel) they are banished away forever from the Lord.

Very profound are the words of that wise woman in more ways than just one! 2 Samuel 14:2
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[cslewislover]

Derrick, BW and I just posted on a couple of verses that you were concerned about (I will see if I can find out more about the others, too). I had also posted more of 1 Corinthians earlier, that makes it very clear to me that to try and support the soul-sleep verses is just not tenable. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. A verse you left out of those supporting being in heaven right after death, and not soul sleep, is that concerning the thief on the cross. I'm very surprised you didn't include this, Luke 23:43. "Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'"

[BavarianWheels]

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I can't find the other discussion.

I am interested in hearing where, the side that holds to 'alive in heaven immediately at the moment of earthly death', says Lazarus was those 4 days he was dead? Also how is death an enemy if the dead go to heaven immediately? Just wondering how these simple points are reconciled through this view. Thx.
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I hadn't thought about Lazarus too much before - where he was - except in thinking how the poor guy had to die twice. But it would be my understanding that he went to Sheol or Abraham's Bosom, since Jesus had not died and been resurrected yet. Once Jesus did his work, heaven was opened to believers. I don't have the verse off-hand, but it says somewhere that while he was dead, Jesus went down to the captives (in Sheol or Abraham's Bosom). He gave them the gospel so that they'd have the opportunity to accept Him and go to heaven as well. So Lazarus simply went there, and came back from there.

I think death is considered an enemy because it wasn't meant to be, originally. Besides causing us so much pain for our loved ones, which wasn't meant to be either. In the new heaven and new earth, there will be no more tears . . .

This doesn't clear the cruel joke played on Lazarus. If he was in "Abe's Bosom"...then he was safe and "alive"...happy, in bliss. His next stop was heaven. But in this belief, Lazarus was yanked out of this bliss to restart again...and even the words of Jesus are clear, "Lazarus is dead...but let us go to him." Let us go to him? Do we have access to Abe's bosom? No, Jesus clearly states here that Lazarus was in the tomb...and in the condition he already mentioned...dead.

Abe's bosom is not a literal place, but a metaphor for being secure in Christ...or in God as they didn't know the name of "Christ". Much like "the dead in Christ."

1 Thessalonians 4:16 - The dead in Christ will rise first? How can anyone rise "first" if they've already been there, come back down into their body, then resurrect to go BACK to heaven? This is one of the points that is the killer for me on this subject. I trust God is logical. It is not logical for the sequence to go like this:

1. Person in spirit/soul with God in heaven. Has been there already "eternally". Yay!
2. Person's spirit/soul put into a corrupted/sinful body. Boo.
3. Find Christ, put faith in Him...luckily. Yay! (not all that are thrown down to earth find Christ obviously)
4. Die mortal death. Boo, but Yay! at the same time.
5. Disembodied spirit/soul goes to live with Christ in heaven. Yay!
6. Disembodied spirit/soul returns to dead corrupted body. Boo. I'm thinking, "Again? What now?"
7. Disembodied spirit and corrupted body changed in a twinkling of an eye. Yay!
8. New body and same spirit/soul back with God for the third time. Yay!, but not sure if I may be thrown down again to roll the dice once more.

This just doesn't make sense, does it? Prior to being born human, the spirit/soul was with God already...eternally. Next God decides, "You there, you're going down to earth to live and if you find Me, you get to come back when you die. But then you'll go back to your old body, to be changed and then you get to come back to live with Me eternally." Then I would say, "But Lord, I'm here already. Why must I be thrown down to maybe be brought up again, taken BACK down, and brought up again?"

It just doesn't make sense.

However this does:

a. God plans salvation
1. God creates Man
2. Man sins and needs saving.
3. Man finds and puts faith in God/Jesus. Never having seen God.
4. Man dies/knows nothing more.
5. Man is resurrected.
6. Man is changed from corruptible to incorruptible
7. Man meets his Maker and Savior
8. Man goes to heaven which no Man has seen (except a handful of special men)
9. Man lives with his Maker and Savior for eternity

It's clean and this is my belief.
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[cslewislover]

Well, Bav, as part of the cruel part, I don't know. There are a lot of things in the Bible that I don't personally like, right off anyway, that God did or allowed. Like where that one guy, was his name Uzzah? Something like that. Anyway, that one guy who dropped dead when he touched the Ark of the Covenant because he thought it would fall from the cart that David had it transported on. It was David's fault for not transporting it in the manner that was required. And that guy was just trying to do good, and had a wife (and children, I believe), and David himself was mad with God about it too. And God allowed Urriah, Bathsheba's husband, to be killed as David planned; and Urriah seemed to be such a great guy.

But I still trust God, and I don't believe that Lazarus suffered anymore than any of us do. He was sick before he died, like we all get sick. I doubt if his death was hard and I'm sure God blessed him. Did you read of that lady you died for four minutes and came back to life, after Christmas, that BW posted about? In one article she described her death as just feeling like she fell to sleep. Now I find that interesting because I've thought of that . . . that if your heart stops you'd know it and it would be very very distressing, before you lost consciousness. But she said she felt like she went to sleep.

[BavarianWheels]

Well, Bav, as part of the cruel part, I don't know. There are a lot of things in the Bible that I don't personally like, right off anyway, that God did or allowed. Like where that one guy, was his name Uzzah? Something like that. Anyway, that one guy who dropped dead when he touched the Ark of the Covenant because he thought it would fall from the cart that David had it transported on. It was David's fault for not transporting it in the manner that was required. And that guy was just trying to do good, and had a wife (and children, I believe), and David himself was mad with God about it too. And God allowed Urriah, Bathsheba's husband, to be killed as David planned; and Urriah seemed to be such a great guy.

With all due respect, how can you feel sorry for Uzzah at all? If everyone goes immediately to heaven, then God did Uzzah a favor. Let's look at this as something today. Let's say this same exact scenario would happen today. Would you still feel sorry for Uzzah/ What I'm saying is that if YOU (a general 'you' at all that hold this belief) REALLY believe that the bible teaches that the moment you die, you go to heaven, then there's no reason what so ever to pitty those or mourn for your loved ones in the least! I mean there should be ZERO tears. When was the last time you cried tears of happiness at a funeral of a loved on who was a Christian? Death should be a celebration of life if one really believes this lie (as I see it). Cry at the suffering prior to death, but when death comes, it should be the happiest time for anyone knowing their loved one is IMMEDIATELY standing next to Christ.

I realize that in 1 Cor. 5:8, the writer seems to imply this, but then in 1 Cor. 5:14 the writer tells us we are already dead! The reward is not at death. This is clear in the scriptures. Isa. 40:10, Isa. 62:11 and especially Rev. 22:12. Death is the enemy...from the beginning and to the end. If at death we go to heaven, death is a friend, not an enemy. Rev. 20:6 - This begs the question, "What power does the first death have on them?

But I still trust God, and I don't believe that Lazarus suffered anymore than any of us do. He was sick before he died, like we all get sick. I doubt if his death was hard and I'm sure God blessed him. Did you read of that lady you died for four minutes and came back to life, after Christmas, that BW posted about? In one article she described her death as just feeling like she fell to sleep. Now I find that interesting because I've thought of that . . . that if your heart stops you'd know it and it would be very very distressing, before you lost consciousness. But she said she felt like she went to sleep.

The point is not whether he suffered more, the point I'm attempting to make is that Lazarus was dead, but "alive" in Abe's bosom, frolicking outside the gates of heaven, as it were.

Question(s): Why didn't Lazarus have anything to say about where he was, be it heaven or Abe's bosom? Did Jesus erase his memory for fear of Lazarus confirming the existence of an afterlife prior to the 2nd Coming? Could Lazarus not have been allowed to simply acknowledge being with Abe? And if he was somewhere nice, why did he come back still wrapped in

Question: If Abe's bosom is one step from heaven and life on earth is two steps from heaven, where would anyone rather be? Logic.

Question: If Lazarus was alive in Abe's bosom, why did Jesus weep seeing the tomb?
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[cslewislover]

With all due respect, how can you feel sorry for Uzzah at all? If everyone goes immediately to heaven, then God did Uzzah a favor. Let's look at this as something today. Let's say this same exact scenario would happen today. Would you still feel sorry for Uzzah/ What I'm saying is that if YOU (a general 'you' at all that hold this belief) REALLY believe that the bible teaches that the moment you die, you go to heaven, then there's no reason what so ever to pitty those or mourn for your loved ones in the least! I mean there should be ZERO tears. When was the last time you cried tears of happiness at a funeral of a loved on who was a Christian? Death should be a celebration of life if one really believes this lie (as I see it). Cry at the suffering prior to death, but when death comes, it should be the happiest time for anyone knowing their loved one is IMMEDIATELY standing next to Christ.

Bav, I don't know about how you feel, really, because I don't feel that way. I am happy for believers to be in heaven when they die, but I still cry out of sadness for things. We live in the physical world, and that person is taken away from us, so it's sad. That wasn't what was supposed to be, originally. It's so awful when we can't feel a loved one anymore, or see them smile, whether they are happily in heaven or not.

I realize that in 1 Cor. 5:8, the writer seems to imply this, but then in 1 Cor. 5:14 the writer tells us we are already dead! The reward is not at death. This is clear in the scriptures. Isa. 40:10, Isa. 62:11 and especially Rev. 22:12. Death is the enemy...from the beginning and to the end. If at death we go to heaven, death is a friend, not an enemy. Rev. 20:6 - This begs the question, "What power does the first death have on them?

As I said above, death is an enemy in that it feels so awful to us, to be separated from our loved ones, and to see their lifeless bodies. Besides it being sad, it seems very unnatural, and where does that come from? That unnatural feeling? If it were so natural, then why do we have that feeling? CS Lewis, in one of his arguments for the faith, talked of time. Why do we feel that time goes by too quickly, if it is just a natural part of us and our lives? Why should that idea even pop into our heads? Because we were made for eternity, so it is in fact "unnatural" for us to have to deal with the limits of time. The same could be said for death, in my view.

But I still trust God, and I don't believe that Lazarus suffered anymore than any of us do. He was sick before he died, like we all get sick. I doubt if his death was hard and I'm sure God blessed him. Did you read of that lady you died for four minutes and came back to life, after Christmas, that BW posted about? In one article she described her death as just feeling like she fell to sleep. Now I find that interesting because I've thought of that . . . that if your heart stops you'd know it and it would be very very distressing, before you lost consciousness. But she said she felt like she went to sleep.

The point is not whether he suffered more, the point I'm attempting to make is that Lazarus was dead, but "alive" in Abe's bosom, frolicking outside the gates of heaven, as it were.

Question(s): Why didn't Lazarus have anything to say about where he was, be it heaven or Abe's bosom? Did Jesus erase his memory for fear of Lazarus confirming the existence of an afterlife prior to the 2nd Coming? Could Lazarus not have been allowed to simply acknowledge being with Abe? And if he was somewhere nice, why did he come back still wrapped in

Question: If Abe's bosom is one step from heaven and life on earth is two steps from heaven, where would anyone rather be? Logic.

Question: If Lazarus was alive in Abe's bosom, why did Jesus weep seeing the tomb?

Lol, frolicking. Hmmm. Ha ha ha. Well, for one thing, there is a lot not recorded in the Bible. So who knows??? Maybe God let Lazarus know that his experience was not allowed to be generally known. That happened with Paul, who was transported to heaven, yet he felt he was not allowed to give an account of what he saw there. So I have no problem with this at all.

And as for Abe's bosom and how close one is to heaven, it's not anyone's choice. If God made that place and you couldn't get to heaven by it, even though you were closer somehow in a physical sense, it wouldn't matter. If God blocks the way, the distance has no relevance.

Jesus wept because he was also human and empathizes with us, and that's how we know that he understands us, too. It's an example of this. People were crying, they wanted their Lazarus back. If I were there, I'd cry too just because I'd feel for these people. I have also read, though, that Jesus may have been crying out of pity because the people there didn't understand the resurrection yet, or did not have enough faith in it.

[BavarianWheels]

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I guess I'm just really hard-headed. If a person is taught his/her whole life that at death you go to heaven, why is it so sad?
Let me tell you why I think it remains a sad thing: It remains sad because no one has the conviction that it is true. If it is true that death = heaven, then who can rightly be sad over someone moving on to heaven. It's like being sad and crying that your friend has won the lottery, but you want them to return to their poverty so you can be happy?

I'm looking at it like this. Let's say that from birth a child is taught about death in this happy sense. Of course initially when the child is young and experiences death/separation for the first times, there is sadness and weeping. There is a longing to be with that which has died. At first it's small animals then pets, then grandma and grandpa, etc. But as the child grows and learns AND experiences the happiness that the older kids and adults are displaying at death, then it is believed and becomes second nature.

That's not the case at all. We cry and mourn over death because we know innately that death is just as it is defined, ceasing to exist, the end. These people are dead, gone, kaput, on their way back to dust. The Breath leaves and goes back to God and the dust remains. It is as God says it is...an enemy. Do we embrace an enemy? Who prays for death that isn't suffering?

The fact of the matter is that if we really believed this, we would never cry at death or because of death. Crying and mourning would be at suffering ONLY. We could feel a kind of sadness at being apart from a loved one, but it would be a REALLY selfish sadness knowing that their "dead" loved one wouldn't choose to come back from the "dead" if it is as is being promoted by the majority of Christianity.

I hope I'm not sounding argumentative, just speaking as if we were face to face in a discussion. =)
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[cslewislover]

That's not the case at all. We cry and mourn over death because we know innately that death is just as it is defined, ceasing to exist, the end. These people are dead, gone, kaput, on their way back to dust. The Breath leaves and goes back to God and the dust remains. It is as God says it is...an enemy. Do we embrace an enemy? Who prays for death that isn't suffering?

The fact of the matter is that if we really believed this, we would never cry at death or because of death. Crying and mourning would be at suffering ONLY. We could feel a kind of sadness at being apart from a loved one, but it would be a REALLY selfish sadness knowing that their "dead" loved one wouldn't choose to come back from the "dead" if it is as is being promoted by the majority of Christianity.

I hope I'm not sounding argumentative, just speaking as if we were face to face in a discussion. =)

Referrring to the earlier part of your post, I wasn't raised that way, so I'm not sure how I would feel, or how it would affect how I feel, I mean. But I honestly can say that I do believe that some people I know are in heaven. I don't know whether some others are or not. I'm not saying I'm perfect in my faith - I'm not. But I think I believe as much as is possible. Even John the Baptist, who saw Christ himself, and saw the Spirit of God descend on him, later had doubts! Yet Jesus called him the most blessed born of women thus far. It's OK if we question and have issues like that at times, God understands.

But anyway, I would concur that it's selfish to mourn and be sad. It is. But it could also be said that's it's selfish to have wanted their love in the first place, I mean of persons who died. If we so valued their love, then why wouldn't we be sad when it is taken from us temporarily? Every pastor or writer I have heard/read on the subject says it's just natural to grieve and mourn, it's OK. When my aunt (who was like a mom to me) had cancer and I realized she was going to die, I went through mourning then, before she even died. After she died, I was fine. I knew she went to heaven. Being sad and grieving is just a phase we go through when we know that person is no longer going to be available. For the Christian, it may not be much of anything - I mean the mourning - it depends on the person. For the person who is not a Christian, the grieving can last a life time. Anyway, that's my take on it. I don't mind you talking about it.

[Zebulon]

Well, Bav, as part of the cruel part, I don't know. There are a lot of things in the Bible that I don't personally like, right off anyway, that God did or allowed. Like where that one guy, was his name Uzzah? Something like that. Anyway, that one guy who dropped dead when he touched the Ark of the Covenant because he thought it would fall from the cart that David had it transported on. It was David's fault for not transporting it in the manner that was required. And that guy was just trying to do good, and had a wife (and children, I believe), and David himself was mad with God about it too. And God allowed Urriah, Bathsheba's husband, to be killed as David planned; and Urriah seemed to be such a great guy.

Note: In the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently).

This is why I don't stand the bible as Word of God. Jesus-Christ is the Word of the Father, not the bible.

Zebulon

[Byblos]

^

The most distorted view of the Bible if I ever saw one. Wow! I am speechless.

[Zebulon]

^

The most distorted view of the Bible if I ever saw one. Wow! I am speechless.

I somehow agree. Then if these passages are not reflecting the life and saying (Word) of Jesus-Christ, they could have been written by the scribes? (scribes and Pharasee that Jesus condemned) or am I missing something?

Zebulon

[cslewislover]

^

The most distorted view of the Bible if I ever saw one. Wow! I am speechless.

I know. Jesus IS the word, as John so beautifully puts it. It's living and beautiful, just like Jesus.

I'm not sure how to view the length of your post, either, Zeb. It's so almost absurdly long. It would seem better to list some things, then give a paragraph of more verse ref.s. I'm not sure what the other mods think of this. At a certain point, it's like spamming or something.

And Zeb, there's plenty of sources on reading how we got our bible. There is a lot of historical and archaeological proof for us to know that the bible is highly accurate.

About your original assertion, I don't know if that's even true! LOL. If you look at the words God said about himself, and not just the historical accounts, I think your count would be different.

[BavarianWheels]

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I'm not sure what Zeb's post is about...
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