Evidence for God from Science

I can and have named specific organizations and denominations where OEC proponents have been defrocked and removed from jobs that are well documented and easily looked up.

I'll take your word that you know of YECs being removed by OECs in Christian Organizations I have to note however, that you're not naming them even generally and so it remains difficult for me to see it as anything other than isolated instances and not matters of broad stated organizational policy. If you can be more specific I'll gladly consider what you're saying and look closer at it. In the absence of that there's not much further we can go than to leave it at this.

blessings,

bart

Jac3510 wrote:I'm just asking you to recognize, or at least entertain the possibility, that YEC is no more divisive than OEC is.

Nice.

As far as the Catholic Church is concerned (I think Bart was asking) I've stated many times that the church has no official policy one way or the other. Although many Catholics tend to go the way of theistic evolution, I find there's a mix from all sides. In Catholic organizations, however, schools in particular, that's a very interesting question to which I have no answer (whether or not they would exclude science teachers who are openly YEC for example). My younger son attends a Catholic school so I will have to do some investigative prodding to find out.

Bart,

You can take this as a dodge if you like, but I'm not going to offer a list of "offenders." It wouldn't be difficult, but I don't think that would be very constructive, especially given that I don't hold such actions against the people in question. It would be rather hypocritical of me to ask OECs to be less harsh on what they perceive to be YEC exclusivism and then turn around and post a list of exclusive OEC organizations.

Like I said, take it as a dodge if you like. I'm just trying to be consistent and ethical. My appeal is to your rational side, nor to your emotions. I am completely aware that your personal experience has made it difficult for you to see it from the other side. I am, then, asking you to step outside of yourself and just recognize the possibility that your experience, though common, is not universal, and could easily be echoed from people on my side of the fence. The sooner both sides do that, the sooner we can get past this completely unnecessary schism.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Michael Spenser is often referred to as the Internet Monk and is one of the leading blogger voices in what is often referred to as the post-evangelical movement.

I happened to come across this post of his in his blog in which he declares himself OEC and why.

I thought it might be of interest for some here.

http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/C/creation.html

Where does he say he's an OEC? It seems to me he believes in some sort of Theistic Evolution. In many areas he talks about creationists or creationism, lumping yec's and oec's together. Did he actually say he is an OEC? If he did , I missed it. Thanks

Jac3510 wrote:Bart,

You can take this as a dodge if you like, but I'm not going to offer a list of "offenders." It wouldn't be difficult, but I don't think that would be very constructive, especially given that I don't hold such actions against the people in question. It would be rather hypocritical of me to ask OECs to be less harsh on what they perceive to be YEC exclusivism and then turn around and post a list of exclusive OEC organizations.

Like I said, take it as a dodge if you like. I'm just trying to be consistent and ethical. My appeal is to your rational side, nor to your emotions. I am completely aware that your personal experience has made it difficult for you to see it from the other side. I am, then, asking you to step outside of yourself and just recognize the possibility that your experience, though common, is not universal, and could easily be echoed from people on my side of the fence. The sooner both sides do that, the sooner we can get past this completely unnecessary schism.

Jac,

I don't see it as a dodge. I respect your motives.

While saying that, I also have to say that anyone can do some simple google searches and very easily find the recent history of the Southern Baptist denomination for example with regard to linking a YEC position to inerrancy and the long list of heads that have rolled because of that. The recent issues in the PCA are a matter of public record.

These are matters of broad stated policy and public actions taken by Christian organizations that can be seen without broaching anyone's confidentiality.

So, again, I know you well enough and respect you highly enough that I accept that you've personally experienced or seen discriminatory action toward a YEC position within Christian organizations and that you do not wish to be more specific that that. If it's not possible to illustrate that on the same level as what I've just stated and which anyone can verify independently through the use of independent media sources etc. then I'm left with the conclusion that it is not unreasonable to continue to make the assertion that there is more evidence of such exclusivism on the part of YEC organizations than OEC. Or at the least that it has not risen to the level of organization wide policy that it clearly has within some YEC organizations.

But I accept your caution that that doesn't mean it doesn't go in the other direction. I still maintain however that in terms of frequency and degrees there's more evidence of it from YEC and in the absence of your providing more support than you're willing to do, it's difficult for me to modify my statements any more than that.

I hope you understand as well and don't hear any desire on my part to unecessarily contribute to the general negative tenor that that can be.

blessings,

bart

RickD wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:Michael Spenser is often referred to as the Internet Monk and is one of the leading blogger voices in what is often referred to as the post-evangelical movement.

I happened to come across this post of his in his blog in which he declares himself OEC and why.

I thought it might be of interest for some here.

http://www.internetmonk.com/articles/C/creation.html

Where does he say he's an OEC? It seems to me he believes in some sort of Theistic Evolution. In many areas he talks about creationists or creationism, lumping yec's and oec's together. Did he actually say he is an OEC? If he did , I missed it. Thanks

The header on the article says, "Everyone thinks I should be a young earth creationist, I'm not".

He also says he's speaking on a high level and not a scientific one.

Theistic Evolution technically is an OEC position although most people mean Progressive Creationism or Day-Age when they talk about OEC. Spenser is speaking more about why he rejects the YEC position and sees the broader spectrum of OEC as more in line with how he sees things. He's not trying in his article to build a case for a specific OEC position.

bart

OK Bart, I guess since I'm not too familiar with Theistic Evolution, I didn't think It was similar to OEC. When I hear Evolution associated with Creation, I think of Darwinian Evolution. I guess I should see what a TE believes.

I just did a search on theistic evolution. The article I found is from a YEC site. The article states that OEC's are the same as theistic evolutionists. Its also assumes if someone is a Creationist, he must be a YEC. Do YEC's really assume all OEC's must believe in evolution? That seems to be a pretty bad assumption. The article I found is on Gotquestions.org

RickD wrote:OK Bart, I guess since I'm not too familiar with Theistic Evolution, I didn't think It was similar to OEC. When I hear Evolution associated with Creation, I think of Darwinian Evolution. I guess I should see what a TE believes.

RickD,

Francis Collins would be an example of a TE position. CS Lewis also has some passages in his writings that indicate he generally fell into that category as well.

How you categorize something is a matter of preference and thought structure. Some might not consider Theistic Evolution to fall into OEC, but I think at a high level it does. It sees the earth as old and then sees God working though or by the process of evolution to accomplish designed ends. I see it as a possibility but I don't believe it is a necessary position to assume.

blessings,

bart

RickD wrote:I just did a search on theistic evolution. The article I found is from a YEC site. The article states that OEC's are the same as theistic evolutionists. Its also assumes if someone is a Creationist, he must be a YEC. Do YEC's really assume all OEC's must believe in evolution? That seems to be a pretty bad assumption. The article I found is on Gotquestions.org

Some Young Earth Creationists lump anyone that doesn't agree with them into one category and equates them all as evolutionists, nevermind putting "theistic" in front of it. I can't speak for Gotquestions.org but I've certainly seen a great deal of YEC proponents demonstrate that kind of stereotyping.

It's generally better to see how a position defines itself, than to rely upon opponents to do that accurately. That's true of the YEC position too by the way. Don't take my, or this board's word for what YEC proponents believe. Look at their sites and literature and let them speak for themselves. Then see if we've represented them accurately.

blessings,

bart

Canuckster, I absolutely agree. Any yec site that I have seen seems to say that if someone doesn't hold to their yec beliefs, he is wrong. From my experiences with yec's, they don't seem to be open to anything but their dogmatic view. That is just my experience. And my experience is recent and fairly limited. I would like to see one well known yec advocate who believes an oec model is also a legitimate translation. The loudest an best known yec's that I've seen are too narrow minded in this regard. I just think the way people react to a differing opinion than their own, says a lot more about them than just the subject being discussed. Thanks