Evidence for God from Science

PaulB007 wrote:This might be a loaded question, but how do we know with certainty that the gospel writers didn't just make this up? Is there records outside of the gospel that mention Paul?

Paul: in the current issue of Biblical Archæology Review (Jan/Feb 2010) Vatican archæologists have discovered wall frescoes of Paul's likeness.

Christians: Roman historian Tacitus mentioned both Christians and Jesus in Book XV of The Annals, point 44.

Jesus: Jewish historian Josephus mentions Jesus in various places, the most famous being in Antiquities XVIII, 63.

There is parallel (non-biblical) evidence of Jesus' existence. Anyone who tells you that this whole story is a fabrication is not rational or just plain ignorant. As historian Will Durant said so well,

...no one reading these scenes [gospel accounts] can doubt the reality of the figure behind them. That a few simple men should in one generation have invented so powerful a personality, so lofty an ethic and so inspiring a vision of human brotherhood, would be a miracle far more incredible than any recorded in the Gospels.*

FL

*Cæsar and Christ, Chapter XXVI, p.557

Saying that Paul or Jesus were not historical figures is worse than saying that Alexander the Great, and Julius Ceasar are not historical figures.

There are ample sources to study the historical veracity of the bible and the people in it. And it sounds like you are preparing for just that thing.

There are so many resources to study to help answer questions. Obviously, Mere Christianity has been mentioned. Poster Jac could easily reference some philisophical arguments. Lee Strobel's books seem to be well researched. Also he comes from one who was converted when he undertook a skeptical look at the bible and Jesus.

Will it strengthen your faith? Arguments do not strengthen faith. They simply push aside barriers, so that faith can take root and grow.

PaulB007 wrote:This might be a loaded question, but how do we know with certainty that the gospel writers didn't just make this up? Is there records outside of the gospel that mention Paul?

I could give you link after link describing the authority of the Gospels. I, also, could probably find link after link calling this authority in to question. What I'm going to do now is give you the words of Bart D Ehrman, a scholar in Christianity but also a sceptic. This would be the fairest thing to do seeing as you are sceptical. This is taken from his book The Truth and Fiction of The Divinci Code, not a book devoted to the Gospels by any means but a book that frequently alludes to to early Christianity and beyond...

"The oldest and best sources for knowing about Jesus are the four Gospels of the New Testament. This is the view of all serious historians, even those atheist historians. Scholars- serious scholars- of the life of Jesus have learned Greek and Hebrew, Latin, Syriac and Coptic. These scholars have studied the sources inside and out."

This is from a sceptical scholar. Yet he verifies the historicity of the Gospels. If you research this you can find whichever view you wish to support a preconceived stance. Be careful and choose a reliable source.

Oh no, my problem isn't doubting Jesus existed. I have read the Ancient Evidence for Jesus and The Case for the Ressurection of Jesus both by Gary Habermas, as well as Strobel's case for Christ. Both are good reads, and I have read all of the secular historical documents from ancient rome and the like regarding Jesus and early Christian persecution. I don't doubt that at all.

What I can't grasp is the ressurection. How can we say for sure if that part wasn't made up? Is there any secular sources that help confirm Paul was a former Christian persecutor who turned Christian, or do we just go off of what the Bible said? What of James the brother of Jesus? He was a skeptic also turned believer after claiming to see Jesus. Do we have any other church documents showing early ressurection beliefs? I know Paul's letter to the Corinthian church is dated pretty early, before the gospels, but how do we know that for sure?

PaulB007 wrote:What I can't grasp is the ressurection. How can we say for sure if that part wasn't made up? Is there any secular sources that help confirm Paul was a former Christian persecutor who turned Christian, or do we just go off of what the Bible said? What of James the brother of Jesus? He was a skeptic also turned believer after claiming to see Jesus. Do we have any other church documents showing early ressurection beliefs? I know Paul's letter to the Corinthian church is dated pretty early, before the gospels, but how do we know that for sure?

Okay so how do you account for the reappearance of Jesus? How do you account for the fact that the Gospels (which are historically verified) record Jesus's reappearance? Paul? Okay, how do you account for the fact that Paul was articulate and could read and write? Aside from Mattwew, the disciples were an illiterate grab-bag of followers of Jesus- Historically, Paul has been shown to be utterly independent from the disciples. Paul is also a historically-recorded figure- so what do you make of HIS OWN admission that he once persecuted followers of Christ as a pharisee? Read Acts 26 whole and get a first-hand account from Paul...

Do we have any records of Paul's existance outside of the New Testement?

PaulB007 wrote:Do we have any records of Paul's existance outside of the New Testement?

From "The Apostolic Fathers: Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp, Second Edition" by J. B. Lightfoot

Clement of Alexandria, The Epistle of S. Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 5 (AD 94,95)
"Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles. ...By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and West, we won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith, having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance."

Ignatius of Antioch, To the Romans, Chapter 4 (August 23, 97 AD)
"I do not enjoin you as Peter and Paul did. They were Apostles, I am a convict; they were free, but I am a slave to this very hour."

Polycarp, Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians, Chapter 3
"For neither am I, nor is any other like unto me, able to follow the wisdom of the blessed and glorious Paul, who when he came among you taught face to face with the men of that day the word which concerneth truly carefully and surely; who also, when he was absent, wrote a letter unto you, into the which if ye look diligently, ye shall be able to be builded up unto the faith given to you, which is the mother of us all, while hope followeth after and love goeth before--love toward God and Christ and toward our neighbor. For if any man be occupied with these, he hath fulfilled the commandment of righteousness; for he that hath love is far from all sin."

In the part about Clement, Lightfoot argues that Clement probably knew the apostles, including Paul, personally.

There is also reference to Paul in "The Acts of Paul and Thecla" (http://wesley.nnu.edu/biblical_studies/ ... lnthec.htm), and of course in 2 Peter 3:15.

PaulB007 wrote:Do we have any records of Paul's existance outside of the New Testement?

That's like asking for evidence of history outside of the recordings of history. Before the NT officially became the NT it was an eyewitness account, a recording of history.

You can also choose to believe or not believe the pope when he said last year that the Tomb of Saint Paul in the Vatican contained the mortal remains of Paul. They dated the remains to the first/second century bone fragments. The tomb markers date from 5th century.

Interesting, thanks for digging up those documents for me. I do have a few other questions though. That we know of of the original people who claimed to see the ressurection of Christ, how many died as martyrs saying that they believed in what they had seen?

PaulB007 wrote:Interesting, thanks for digging up those documents for me. I do have a few other questions though. That we know of of the original people who claimed to see the ressurection of Christ, how many died as martyrs saying that they believed in what they had seen?

I think that question is impossible to answer, since we don't have a list of names of all those that saw the resurrected Christ. The Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches document 41 first century martyrs. Whether they all saw a resurrected Christ I don't know. And whether the list is complete is also not known. What is true is that they all died for their Christian faith.

So from an outsiders perspective, looking at the bible and the non new testement accounts of Jesus, do you truly believe there is enough evidence to conclude this is God's son who was resurrected?

I'd bet my life on it.

jlay wrote:I'd bet my life on it.

Literally.

Thanks, if you'd be so kind, would you provide me a brief explanation at to why your faith is so strong and what has made it that way?