Trinity question: What does the word "person" mean?

[Christian2]

As for the Shema then politely point out and ask our Jewish friends: why, when, and by whom was it changed to read from the original Echad to Echid and what evidence from history from that point onward in time did tragedies occur to the Jewish people noting the injunction from Exodus 20:4-5…

There is no malice intent in this at all. Make that plain to our Jewish brethren. We hold no ill will toward them but the reality of the facts do call for an honest look to see whom was pierced and bruised for all our transgressions. Look at the signs and connect the dots.
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You meant echad to yachid above, right? Where did you get the idea that it had been changed?

The word "echad" is still in the text, BW.

[Jac3510]

This is really a misconception. There's no such thing as "compound unity." There is, however, such a thing as "set theory."

Basically, what I mean is that we mention "one" always as opposed to "plural." One never means more than one -- EVER. It is always singular, and the idea of "compound unity" is nonsense.

Here's how it works: I eat one grape, and I say that I've eaten one grape. The grape itself contains the fruit's flesh, skin and seed remains (in seedless grapes, anyway). When I say "one" I am referring to the "set" of the components that make up the grape. Thus, the combination of the pieces equals the whole ONE.

The same is true of a bunch of grapes. I say that I buy one bunch of grapes, though I'm talking about several individual grapes. The "one" is the bunch. It is the "set" of all the pieces that make a singular whole.

Unless it can be determined that God is a "set" of internal components, it makes no sense to refer to God as "one" in the same way that we refer to a bunch of grapes as "one."

Similarly, I can look at a chair and say that I have "one" chair, though the pieces are many. I could break it down into four legs, a seat, a frame and a back, but it all equals "one" chair. Can you break the Infine into component pieces that could possibly be combined to produce a singular "one"? Could you break down God's existence into such parts?

Surely you see the problem here.

The numbers {1, 2, 3... 14} are a set of positive intergers and as such compose ONE set. However, they could be recomposed and create a different set altogether or two or six sets. It is all about combinations, just as it is with grapes.

I could buy ten bunches of grapes and place them into one crate and resell them as "one crate" of grapes for a little profit. There is no comparison here to the concept of there being three that are really one that is really three. It's just a silly concept.

And this is why theologians developed classical theism.

I would suggest that you look into the doctrine of simplicity. Put simply, there are NO "parts" of any kind in God. He is not a composition of anything, be it parts, potential and actual, or essence and being. He is utterly single. I would suggest to your friend that he has a deficient view of God. If God really is "composed" of anything, then what are the parts that "make up" God? Are they more or less God than God? Would God be God without any of them? Who put them together, and how so? What was the cause of God's being this way instead of that?

The Trinity has no problem with simplicity. The article I recommended explains it pretty well, I think. Your friend, I think, has a deeper problem: his view of God makes God a caused being . . . that's hardly the Creator of the universe. :p

[B. W.]

[
I've had a discussion about the Shema and the use of Echad with several Jews over the years. Personally I think God inspired Moses to write Echad and not yachid. I believe Echad leaves room for a compound unity, whereas yachid does not.

I can post part of my discussion with one Jew. These are his comments:

******

This is really a misconception. There's no such thing as "compound unity." There is, however, such a thing as "set theory."

Basically, what I mean is that we mention "one" always as opposed to "plural." One never means more than one -- EVER. It is always singular, and the idea of "compound unity" is nonsense.

Here's how it works: I eat one grape, and I say that I've eaten one grape. The grape itself contains the fruit's flesh, skin and seed remains (in seedless grapes, anyway). When I say "one" I am referring to the "set" of the components that make up the grape. Thus, the combination of the pieces equals the whole ONE.

The same is true of a bunch of grapes. I say that I buy one bunch of grapes, though I'm talking about several individual grapes. The "one" is the bunch. It is the "set" of all the pieces that make a singular whole.

Unless it can be determined that God is a "set" of internal components, it makes no sense to refer to God as "one" in the same way that we refer to a bunch of grapes as "one."

Similarly, I can look at a chair and say that I have "one" chair, though the pieces are many. I could break it down into four legs, a seat, a frame and a back, but it all equals "one" chair. Can you break the Infine into component pieces that could possibly be combined to produce a singular "one"? Could you break down God's existence into such parts?

Surely you see the problem here.

The numbers {1, 2, 3... 14} are a set of positive intergers and as such compose ONE set. However, they could be recomposed and create a different set altogether or two or six sets. It is all about combinations, just as it is with grapes.

I could buy ten bunches of grapes and place them into one crate and resell them as "one crate" of grapes for a little profit. There is no comparison here to the concept of there being three that are really one that is really three. It's just a silly concept.

******
So, there you have it!

Ask him if God is a grape or a chair then read Exodus 20:4 to him and ask why does he make God into the same image of oneness as a grape or chair?
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[Christian2]

This is really a misconception. There's no such thing as "compound unity." There is, however, such a thing as "set theory."

Basically, what I mean is that we mention "one" always as opposed to "plural." One never means more than one -- EVER. It is always singular, and the idea of "compound unity" is nonsense.

Here's how it works: I eat one grape, and I say that I've eaten one grape. The grape itself contains the fruit's flesh, skin and seed remains (in seedless grapes, anyway). When I say "one" I am referring to the "set" of the components that make up the grape. Thus, the combination of the pieces equals the whole ONE.

The same is true of a bunch of grapes. I say that I buy one bunch of grapes, though I'm talking about several individual grapes. The "one" is the bunch. It is the "set" of all the pieces that make a singular whole.

Unless it can be determined that God is a "set" of internal components, it makes no sense to refer to God as "one" in the same way that we refer to a bunch of grapes as "one."

Similarly, I can look at a chair and say that I have "one" chair, though the pieces are many. I could break it down into four legs, a seat, a frame and a back, but it all equals "one" chair. Can you break the Infine into component pieces that could possibly be combined to produce a singular "one"? Could you break down God's existence into such parts?

Surely you see the problem here.

The numbers {1, 2, 3... 14} are a set of positive intergers and as such compose ONE set. However, they could be recomposed and create a different set altogether or two or six sets. It is all about combinations, just as it is with grapes.

I could buy ten bunches of grapes and place them into one crate and resell them as "one crate" of grapes for a little profit. There is no comparison here to the concept of there being three that are really one that is really three. It's just a silly concept.

And this is why theologians developed classical theism.

I would suggest that you look into the doctrine of simplicity. Put simply, there are NO "parts" of any kind in God. He is not a composition of anything, be it parts, potential and actual, or essence and being. He is utterly single. I would suggest to your friend that he has a deficient view of God. If God really is "composed" of anything, then what are the parts that "make up" God? Are they more or less God than God? Would God be God without any of them? Who put them together, and how so? What was the cause of God's being this way instead of that?

The Trinity has no problem with simplicity. The article I recommended explains it pretty well, I think. Your friend, I think, has a deeper problem: his view of God makes God a caused being . . . that's hardly the Creator of the universe. :p

I printed a lot of the article out this morning. I was out of ink before and had to wait until I got more ink put in my printer.

[Christian2]

[
I've had a discussion about the Shema and the use of Echad with several Jews over the years. Personally I think God inspired Moses to write Echad and not yachid. I believe Echad leaves room for a compound unity, whereas yachid does not.

I can post part of my discussion with one Jew. These are his comments:

******

This is really a misconception. There's no such thing as "compound unity." There is, however, such a thing as "set theory."

Basically, what I mean is that we mention "one" always as opposed to "plural." One never means more than one -- EVER. It is always singular, and the idea of "compound unity" is nonsense.

Here's how it works: I eat one grape, and I say that I've eaten one grape. The grape itself contains the fruit's flesh, skin and seed remains (in seedless grapes, anyway). When I say "one" I am referring to the "set" of the components that make up the grape. Thus, the combination of the pieces equals the whole ONE.

The same is true of a bunch of grapes. I say that I buy one bunch of grapes, though I'm talking about several individual grapes. The "one" is the bunch. It is the "set" of all the pieces that make a singular whole.

Unless it can be determined that God is a "set" of internal components, it makes no sense to refer to God as "one" in the same way that we refer to a bunch of grapes as "one."

Similarly, I can look at a chair and say that I have "one" chair, though the pieces are many. I could break it down into four legs, a seat, a frame and a back, but it all equals "one" chair. Can you break the Infine into component pieces that could possibly be combined to produce a singular "one"? Could you break down God's existence into such parts?

Surely you see the problem here.

The numbers {1, 2, 3... 14} are a set of positive intergers and as such compose ONE set. However, they could be recomposed and create a different set altogether or two or six sets. It is all about combinations, just as it is with grapes.

I could buy ten bunches of grapes and place them into one crate and resell them as "one crate" of grapes for a little profit. There is no comparison here to the concept of there being three that are really one that is really three. It's just a silly concept.

******
So, there you have it!

Ask him if God is a grape or a chair then read Exodus 20:4 to him and ask why does he make God into the same image of oneness as a grape or chair?
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I wonder if some of you would like to join the discussion and ask your own questions? I don't know if giving a link to a discussion board is against the rules of G&S.

I am the only Christian on this board. They had more, some I invited, who have left. They are sensitive and I choose my words well in order not to insult them.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine and we have known each other, via discussion boards for years. I didn't find out until recently that he is a former Christian, now a Jew. He and some of other Jews I know have been a tremendous help to me in addressing the allegations against the Bible made by Muslims.

What do you think? If you haven't had the experience of talking with Jews, this might be a good place to do it.

[B. W.]

I wonder if some of you would like to join the discussion and ask your own questions? I don't know if giving a link to a discussion board is against the rules of G&S.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine and we have known each other, via discussion boards for years. I didn't find out until recently that he is a former Christian, now a Jew. He and some of other Jews I know have been a tremendous help to me in addressing the allegations against the Bible made by Muslims.

What do you think? If you haven't had the experience of talking with Jews, this might be a good place to do it.

I would but first have your friends read this from if they so chose. Next, I would not be able to anyhting until next Saturday or Sunday and see if they would respond here as well.
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[Canuckster1127]

There's no problem with a link to a discussion board from someone who's been here and a part of the community such as you are. Just be aware that this is a public board and people who might not honor your wishes might link over and get involved. You might want to just give that information out by pm to guard against that.

That's up to you though. You're welcome to put the link up if you wish.

[Christian2]

There's no problem with a link to a discussion board from someone who's been here and a part of the community such as you are. Just be aware that this is a public board and people who might not honor your wishes might link over and get involved. You might want to just give that information out by pm to guard against that.

That's up to you though. You're welcome to put the link up if you wish.

I will not post the link in public.

[Christian2]

I wonder if some of you would like to join the discussion and ask your own questions? I don't know if giving a link to a discussion board is against the rules of G&S.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine and we have known each other, via discussion boards for years. I didn't find out until recently that he is a former Christian, now a Jew. He and some of other Jews I know have been a tremendous help to me in addressing the allegations against the Bible made by Muslims.

What do you think? If you haven't had the experience of talking with Jews, this might be a good place to do it.

I would but first have your friends read this from if they so chose. Next, I would not be able to anyhting until next Saturday or Sunday and see if they would respond here as well.
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I will not post a link to this discussion on the Jewish site for a couple of reasons.

1. If Jews came here I think they would violate the purpose of this forum -- to build up a Christian's faith.

2. I use a different nickname on the Jewish site and I don't want them to have access to my nickname here. G&S is my "oasis" -- somewhere I can come and discuss what is really on my mind -- maybe some doubts -- stuff like that. You guys are the only ones I will discuss my opinions and/or doubts with.

3. There is a Muslim on the Jewish discussion board and I do not want him here. I have LOTS of reasons for not wanting him here.

BW, I'll post the link to you in a PM.

Thanks.

[teixidoj]

Brothers,

I do not mean to sound negative, but no one here has been able to give a clear answer either biblical or otherwise on the Trinity. Despite the Trinity being a christian theory, there is no irrefutable evidence that the Trinity is a biblical fact. I am not saying that there is or there isn't a Trinity; I just know that this theory is completely over my head and I will pray and be patient that our God the master of time and space will one day provide me with the answer. I do believe that the Trinity is a possibility that our God the creator of all life can be in more than one place at the same time.

In Christ,

John...

[Gman]

Brothers,

I do not mean to sound negative, but no one here has been able to give a clear answer either biblical or otherwise on the Trinity. Despite the Trinity being a christian theory, there is no irrefutable evidence that the Trinity is a biblical fact. I am not saying that there is or there isn't a Trinity; I just know that this theory is completely over my head and I will pray and be patient that our God the master of time and space will one day provide me with the answer. I do believe that the Trinity is a possibility that our God the creator of all life can be in more than one place at the same time.

In Christ,

John...

No evidence??

The Deity of Jesus Christ from the Scriptures

Who is omnipotent (all powerful)? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Philippians 3:20-21
Who is omniscient (all knowing)? 1 John 3:20 Colossians 2:2-3
Who is omnipresent (present everywhere)? Proverbs 15:3 2 Corinthians 2:14
Who is Lord of Sabbath? Genesis 2:3 Matthew 12:8
Who is the great "I am?" Exodus 3:14 John 8:58
Who is the only creator? Isaiah 44:24 John 1:3
Who is the only savior? Isaiah 43:11, 45:21 Acts 4:12
Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13, 14 2 Corinthians 5:10
Who will judge between the sheep and goats? Ezekiel 34:17 Matthew 25:31-33
Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25 Matthew 23:34
Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10 John 10:17-18
Who is "coming in glory?" Isaiah 40:5 Matthew 24:30
Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16 Isaiah 9:6
Who is the "first and last?" Isaiah 44:6 Revelation 1:17
Who is Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32 1 Corinthians 10:4
Who is Stone of stumbling? Isaiah 8:13-15 1 Peter 2:8
"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? Isaiah 40:3 Matthew 3:3
Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33 Micah 5:2
Who is the fountain of living waters? Jeremiah 17:13 John 4:10-14
Who resurrects the dead? Acts 26:8 John 6:40
Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10 Matthew 16:27
Who has all authority and power? 1 Chronicles 29:11 Matthew 28:18
Who gives power and authority to man? Psalm 68:35 Luke 9:1
Who forgives sin? 2 Chronicles 7:14 Matthew 9:6
Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16 John 16:7
Who has the greatest name? Nehemiah 9:5 Philippians 2:9
Whom are we to worship? Exodus 34:14 Revelation 5:12-13
Who is the good Shepherd? Genesis 48:15 John 10:14
Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? Ezekiel 34:11 Matthew 15:24
Who is "Lord of Lords?" Deuteronomy 10:17 Revelation 17:14
To whom shall every knee bow? Isaiah 45:22-23 Philippians 2:10
Who is the righteous branch of David? Jeremiah 23:5-6 Jeremiah 33:15
Who alone is Holy? 1 Samuel 2:2 Acts 3:14
Whose blood cleanses us? Acts 20:28 1 John 1:7
The world was created for whom? Proverbs 16:4 Colossians 1:16
Who is above all? Nehemiah 9:6 Romans 9:5
Who is forever the same? Psalms 102:24-27 Hebrews 1:8-12
Who is our light? Psalm 27:1 John 8:12
Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11 John 14:6
Who is in charge of the angels? Psalms 103:20 2 Thessalonians 1:7
Who gives us rest? Exodus 33:14 Matthew 11:28
Who gives eternal life? Proverbs 19:23 John 3:36
We are the bride of whom? Isaiah 54:5 2 Corinthians 11:2
Who tests the heart and mind? Jeremiah 17:10 Revelation 2:23

Bible Verses Stating Jesus is God

Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and shall bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel, which translated means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23

And fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!" Luke 7:16

In the beginning was the Word...and the Word was God. John 1:1

No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten God, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. John 1:18

He [Jesus]... was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God. John 5:18

I and the Father are one. John 10:30

The Jews answered Him [Jesus], "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God." John 10:33

You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. John 13:13

Jesus said to him, "...He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, `Show us the Father?'" John 14:9

And now, glorify Thou Me together with Thyself, Father, with the glory which I had with Thee before the world was. John 17:5

Thomas answered and said to Him [Jesus], "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

"The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) Acts 10:36

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him Romans 10:12

the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory 1 Corinthians 2:8

...the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4

...Christ Jesus, who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, Philippians 2:6

...to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, Colossians 2:9

God was manifest in the flesh... 1 Timothy 3:16

...our Lord Jesus Christ, which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords; 1 Timothy 6:15

God...in these last days has spoken to us in His Son...And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature... Hebrews 1:2-3

But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever... Hebrews 1:8

...the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; Titus 2:13

Simon Peter ... by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1

And on His robe and on His thigh He [Jesus] has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS." Revelation 19:16

Source.. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... coIh1Wp0AC

[Gman]

I am the only Christian on this board. They had more, some I invited, who have left. They are sensitive and I choose my words well in order not to insult them.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine and we have known each other, via discussion boards for years. I didn't find out until recently that he is a former Christian, now a Jew. He and some of other Jews I know have been a tremendous help to me in addressing the allegations against the Bible made by Muslims.

What do you think? If you haven't had the experience of talking with Jews, this might be a good place to do it.

Christian2.. Can I see this link? I promise not to blow your cover..

Thanks.
G -

[Christian2]

Brothers,

I do not mean to sound negative, but no one here has been able to give a clear answer either biblical or otherwise on the Trinity. Despite the Trinity being a christian theory, there is no irrefutable evidence that the Trinity is a biblical fact. I am not saying that there is or there isn't a Trinity; I just know that this theory is completely over my head and I will pray and be patient that our God the master of time and space will one day provide me with the answer. I do believe that the Trinity is a possibility that our God the creator of all life can be in more than one place at the same time.

In Christ,

John...

Here are some links that might help you.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/commenta ... %20Trinity

http://www.monergism.com/directory/link ... y/Trinity/

I also recommend the following books:

"The Forgotten Trinity" by James White

"Father, Son, & Holy Spirit, Relationships, Roles, & Relevance" by Bruce A. Ware (a must read)

"Our Triune God, A Biblical Portrayal of the Trinity" by Peter Toon

[Christian2]

I am the only Christian on this board. They had more, some I invited, who have left. They are sensitive and I choose my words well in order not to insult them.

The owner of the site is a friend of mine and we have known each other, via discussion boards for years. I didn't find out until recently that he is a former Christian, now a Jew. He and some of other Jews I know have been a tremendous help to me in addressing the allegations against the Bible made by Muslims.

What do you think? If you haven't had the experience of talking with Jews, this might be a good place to do it.

Christian2.. Can I see this link? I promise not to blow your cover..

Thanks.
G -

I'll send you a PM.

[teixidoj]

Brother Gmon,

I truly apprciate the research and I have read all of the scriptures that you have quoted at one time or another. In some of the scriptures that you have quoted; I feel that it talks about two separate beings. For example: What I understand about the Trinity is the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one being. This I believe can be possible, but as the bible tells us that the father and son are one, it also tells us about God and Jesus being two separate beings. The Gospel writers quote Jesus as saying "Nor I nor the angels of heaven know when will be the last day, only God the father who sent me forth knows. For the sender is greater than the one being sent" (How do I translate that as one being?).

I apologize for not doing the great amount of reasearch that you did, but the following bible verses comes to mind regarding Jesus and God:

John 3:16 For God (one being) sent his only begotten son (another being). I ask the question, if Jesus and God are the same being; then who is the only begotten son?

Acts 11:3 For the head of Christ is God the father (If Christ Jesus and God are the same being, what is this scripture talking about?)

I will admit that I may have it all wrong (It would not be the first time). As I can find scripture that talks about Jesus and God being one being, I can also find scripture that talks about Jesus and God being two separate beings. I wish the bible was more clear on this issue. I will continue to pray for understanding and be patient and not make a big deal about it.

I seek factual knowledge to my questions like the answer to why is the sky blue? The fact that the planet Earth is 93 million miles from the sun etc and not mere assumptions. Not being sure about the Trinity used to bother me, but not anymore; I beleive in our creator and that Jesus, whether God in the flesh or the son of God died for my sins. I even felt the presence of the Holy Spirit twice in my life (It felt like an electrical current running through my body, but with great joy).

In conclusion, you showed me scriptures talking about God and Jesus as one being and I showed you scripture showing God and Jesus as two beings. Who's right, I certainly don't know.

Regards,

John...