Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

jlay wrote:There is nothing in our founding documents that makes us a Christian nation.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Nothing in our founding documents?
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Bav, If you're claiming this quote is Christian, where is it Christian? Is it even biblical? Where does the bible say all men have any rights given by their Creator? the bible says all men have the right to pursue happiness?

"All men are created equal" is fundamentally a Christian concept. Jesus Christ exalted the lower man. All men are equal in the eyes of God. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things- and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no-one may boast before Him."

jlay wrote:Bav, that is a pretty naive and poorly thought out response.

There is NOTHING in our founding documents, that makes us a Christian nation. Does the DOI limit those rights to Christians, or any other faith? Nope. Does it require anyone to be part of a christian church? Nope. Does it make provision to teach and uphold the bible? Nope.

What is naive and poorly thought out is to deny the reason for the pilgrims that left Europe to practice their religious convictions as they seemed right.

What is naive and poorly thought out is to think Christianity limits the free rights of anyone to worship (or not) as they see fit.

What is naive and poorly thought out is to think the founding fathers would require everyone to be part of a certain belief when that is what they were leaving initially.

What is naive and poorly thought out is to think the wording of the DOI and all included isn't about freedom including freedom of religion.

jlay wrote:It simply acknowledges a creator. Which Diests, Muslims, Jews, Christians and many others also acknowledge.
The founding documents do not legislate the church or clergy. They do not establish a national church of any sort. The documents in fact restrict the government from doing such a thing.

What is naive and poorly thought out is that neither founding fathers were Muslim, nor Jew...

What is naive and poorly thought out is the complete disregard for the plain writing of the DOI in their purposeful capital 'C' for Creator which then does away with all other gods and acknowledges One True God as Creator.

What is naive and poorly thought out is the founding fathers based the government APART from legislating a church or clergy as that is what they wanted to avoid.

What is naive and poorly thought out is you re-establishing exactly what your arguing against.
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Declaration of Independence wrote:We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States; that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

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What is naive and poorly thought out is to think Christianity limits the free rights of anyone to worship (or not) as they see fit.

Good, because I don't think that way. However, people within Christianity have limited free rights, when the government was a Christian theocracy. Church of England, for one example. Another, heard of the Spanish Inquisition?

What is naive and poorly thought out is to think the founding fathers would require everyone to be part of a certain belief when that is what they were leaving initially.

Actually the founding fathers were not leaving that. The Revolutionary war was not a religious freedoms war. Maybe you have heard of taxation without representation. The Puritan movement started over 200 years before the revolutionary war. Are your current politics motivated by slavery issues? That was only about 130 years ago. You are attempting the blur the line between 200 years of history. If this were a history class, you'd get an "F."

What is naive and poorly thought out is to think the wording of the DOI and all included isn't about freedom including freedom of religion.

Sir, you are blatantly wrong. I challenge you to find one grievance in the DOI relating to religious freedom. Just one, that mentions or even alludes to religious freedom, church, etc. Just one. You have obviously not read the DOI. I suggest before you start your bravado that you at least read through the document. The Boston Tea Party was not over religion my friend.

What is naive and poorly thought out is to deny the reason for the pilgrims that left Europe to practice their religious convictions as they seemed right.

There is quite a gap of time between the Puritans and 1776. Two hundred years to be precise. You are talking about two seperate events in history. The puritan movement and The Revloutionary War were differnet events with different motives. You really have done nothing more than try to mock me by repeating the word naive. You really should have your historical facts straight before you try to by so smug.

What is naive and poorly thought out is the complete disregard for the plain writing of the DOI in their purposeful capital 'C' for Creator which then does away with all other gods and acknowledges One True God as Creator.

Huh? I have no doubt that most if not all of the signers believed what they wrote. The name of Christ is conspicious by its absence in either the DOI and Constitution. I have no doubt that many of the FF were Christians, and were influenced by Christian thinking. I have no doubt that many hoped that Christianity would flourish and prosper under this freedom. But that is a far cry from establishing the USA as a Christian nation. There is zero evidence you can produce that any founding document establishes the USA as a Christian nation. Acknowledging God, even the One true God does not establish the USA as a Christian nation.

What is naive and poorly thought out is the founding fathers based the government APART from legislating a church or clergy as that is what they wanted to avoid.

Another, Huh? Of course they did not legislate clergy or church. Because they were not setting up a church state. Are you seriously arguing that the proof of the USA being a Christian nation, is that the FFs did not include any establishment of such. What???????? Naive??

There are no foundign documents that establish the USA as being Christian. It doesn't promote the teaching of Christian principles to its people. No question it allows its people to be Christian. No question that for many years, the majority of its residents were Christian. And no question it did not promote seperation of church and state. Church and state did overlap. There is no doubt about that. That is because we are a republic. The majority rule. (Not a Christian principle, BTW) If the majority were Christians, guess what?
We may be and may have been a nation composed of mostly Christians. But the USA is not a Christian nation according to any official documents that establish the law of the land.

I find that these arguments are usually interminable until you actually define what you mean by the words "christian nation" as opposed to "nation of christians".

You can't separate the heritage of the US apart from Chrisitianity. That's very different however, than affording Christianity a special status and asserting that the nation was founded to give protected status to any one sect of Christianity or as has developed more since then, to the detriment or diminishing of other religious groups or individuals.

The principles upon which America were founded were to provide a framework that would guide and allow for adaptation as things changed. It was not to maintain a particular status quo in religion or culture through the power of the government.

The use of the word "Creator" in the declaration of independence ties both to the christian heritage and it was also common wording in the writings of Locke, Montaigne and other philosophers who influenced the underlying thoughts upon which it and later the constitution were founded. Deism did have influence. Remember that Deism is not Atheism. It's a belief in God but with the belief that God has given His children the power of thought and and based upon those things that were believed to be self-evident there was a strong desire to leave issues of religion to the state and to avoid any particular christian sect or even the establishment of mandatory non-religion.

While many of the founding fathers were christians, remember too that they were from different branches of christianity and also very fiercely committed to no-one usurping their own freedom. Until the war of 1812, most americans identified themselves more by the state they were a part of than the nation as a whole. That lessened after the war of 1812 but it still remained in place and didn't really completely pass until after the civil war.

Here's a list of the affiliation of the signers of the DoI from this site.

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_F ... igion.html

Religious Affiliation of the Signers of the
Declaration of Independence
Religious Affiliation # of
signers % of
signers
Episcopalian/Anglican 32 57.1%
Congregationalist 13 23.2%
Presbyterian 12 21.4%
Quaker 2 3.6%
Unitarian or Universalist 2 3.6%
Catholic 1 1.8%
TOTAL 56 100%

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

America not a Christian nation? Did the Walton's take way too long to say goodnight?

Well if you have ever studied American history, you will find that most of the laws that originated in the U.S. came from a very staunch Christian named Sir William Blackstone (1723-1780). Called the "Blackstone commentaries," these laws practically mimicked the Bible..

"His Commentaries, which almost served as the "bible" of American Lawyers, set the foundation for our great legal minds, including Chief Justice John Marshall. When scholars examined nearly 15,000 items written by the Founding Fathers between the years 1760 and 1805, (including books, newspapers articles, monographs, pamphlets. etc.), it was found the Sir William Blackstone was quoted more than any other author except one."

http://jcsm.org/AmericasFounders/SirWil ... kstone.htm

jlay wrote:There are no foundign documents that establish the USA as being Christian.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I find that these arguments are usually interminable until you actually define what you mean by the words "christian nation"...

I agree. The U.S. was not established as a Christian nation. It was established with Christian values by Christians to make all free including freedom of religion.

I took the point differently.
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Gman,

You are saying Christian thinking influenced the founding fathers, and I think we all agree with that. Regardless of Blackstone's faith, His commentaries are NOT the bible. The founding documents do not quote or evoke the Bible in any way shape or form.

Israel is a Jewish nation. Iran is a Muslim nation. How do we know this?
Please, please, please, someone tell me how America is a Christian nation? The majority of people I work with are Christians. Does this make my business a 'Christian' business?

jlay wrote:Gman,

You are saying Christian thinking influenced the founding fathers, and I think we all agree with that. Regardless of Blackstone's faith, His commentaries are NOT the bible. The founding documents do not quote or evoke the Bible in any way shape or form.

Israel is a Jewish nation. Iran is a Muslim nation. How do we know this?
Please, please, please, someone tell me how America is a Christian nation? The majority of people I work with are Christians. Does this make my business a 'Christian' business?

Only if you're a Christian.
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jlay wrote:Please, please, please, someone tell me how America is a Christian nation?

Gladly.

"When in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the Separation." DOI

"Undoubtedly, the revealed law is, humanly speaking, of infinitely more authority than what we generally call the natural law, because one is the law of nature expressly declared so to be by God Himself. The other is only what by the assistance of human reason we imagine to be that law." William Blackstone, 1765

The phrase "the laws of nature and nature's God" refers to the laws of God in the created order and in God's word.

"Since all of the laws of nature governing human conduct proceed directly from God's creation of the world, all such laws share certain attributes which reflect the unchanging character of God. In fact, it is the unchanging nature of God that gives any permanence to law at all. Were it not for the God who is from everlasting to everlasting, and who is involved in the affairs of men, law could not have any permanence ... God's law, and man's law patterned after it, does not change with time, treats all men the same, and does not vary from place to place. These rules of law are not situationally relative, neither are they based on a person's ability or necessity. The law is no respecter of persons. Hence, the U. S. Constitution, though it is the supreme law of the land, is itself under law. That law is the law of nature (the will of God impressed in the creation), which is no respecter of nations. This does not place the Constitution against God's law, but gives a framework for understanding the Constitution in light of God's law ... With a constant reliance on the unity of the people of America, the Declaration in every way affirms the existence of a new nation "to assume, among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and nature's God entitle them ... Senators were required by Art. I, Sec. 3, Cl. 3 to have been United States citizens for nine years, which acknowledges the existence of a United States by 1778. Finally, The Constitution closes with the phrase, "Done in Convention . . . in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-seven, and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth." Since eleven years and two months had passed between the signing of the Declaration of Independence and the drafting of the U.S. Constitution, the nation was in its twelfth year. Thus, the nation was chartered by the Declaration, not the Constitution.

http://www.lonang.com/conlaw/1/c11b.htm#2

"We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." DOI

"All men are created equal" is a fundamental Christian principle. Christ exalted the lowly man. All men are equal in the eyes of God. 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things- and the things that are not - to nullify the things that are, so that no-one may boast before Him."

"After recognizing the legal context for the new nation, the Declaration further acknowledges that some truths are self-evident: "that all men are created equal [and] that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable rights." In the document's final paragraph, appeal is made "to the Supreme Judge of the world . . . with a firm reliance on the protection of DIVINE PROVIDENCE", to which the signers pledged their "sacred honour." ... Clearly, the founders of America acknowledged the truth of the Genesis account of the origin of man, and the applicability of God's law and will in the affairs of men. One cannot understand American constitutional law apart from understanding the laws of nature and of nature's God which set the context in which the Constitution was framed and adopted. In this sense, the Declaration of Independence is the foundation of all American constitutional law."

http://www.lonang.com/conlaw/1/c11b.htm#2

More cut and paste rhetoric.
I know and you know. We all know that the FFs were influenced by their Christian heritage. Agreed.
However, what we are talking about is whether the country was founded as a Christian nation. Not, was it founded by Christians. If someone says a prayer before a football game, is it a Christian ballgame? If all the players are Christian, is it a Christian ballgame. No, it is a ballgame that Christians are participating in.

jlay wrote:More cut and paste rhetoric.

What's this supposed to mean?

jlay wrote:More cut and paste rhetoric.
I know and you know. We all know that the FFs were influenced by their Christian heritage. Agreed.
However, what we are talking about is whether the country was founded as a Christian nation. Not, was it founded by Christians. If someone says a prayer before a football game, is it a Christian ballgame? If all the players are Christian, is it a Christian ballgame. No, it is a ballgame that Christians are participating in.

jlay, Tell me why you believe that. You need proof. Please post rhetoric to back up your ideas. Just Kidding, I agree with your post.

jlay wrote:More cut and paste rhetoric.
I know and you know. We all know that the FFs were influenced by their Christian heritage. Agreed.
However, what we are talking about is whether the country was founded as a Christian nation. Not, was it founded by Christians. If someone says a prayer before a football game, is it a Christian ballgame? If all the players are Christian, is it a Christian ballgame. No, it is a ballgame that Christians are participating in.

Your analogies are just bogus. How do you define a Christian nation? Is your definition exclusive to you, and anyone who agrees with the same definition? A nation founded on Christian principles can rightly be called a Christian nation. Is the game of football founded on Christian principles? When you label something as "rhetoric" it would help any case you think you might have by actually presenting something resembling an argument. Otherwise your post just smacks of empty- wait for it - rhetoric.

RickD wrote:I'd like to find out what different people believe on this question. You can give proofs or just opinions on why you believe The United States of America is or isn't a Christian nation. I believe It's a nation founded on many Biblical principles, but at present is only a nominally Christian nation. Thanks

Perhaps the OP needs to make it more clear what his intent was. Did he mean America was founded as a Christian nation or did he mean America was founded based on Christian principles? Two different things.

Either way though, to go back to where the point of contention was (as far as I remember), the majority in the U.S. claim to believe in God and claim to be Christian. Rick disputed that and said that no, America is nominally Christian so it can't be viewed as a Christian nation (I guess meaning with a majority Christian population). My question to him was well how can you possibly tell that most of these self-professed Christians aren't really Christian. So it all started not with the claim that America was a Christian nation (obviously it is not, otherwise it'd be a theocracy) but with the idea that even though the majority professes to be Christan, America still can't be seen as a majority Christian nation.