Evidence for God from Science

TallMan wrote:We have:
songs
personal testimony
bible-based talk ("words of wisdom and knowledge")
hymn & communion
2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each with interpretation
2 or 3 prophecies
prayer for needs
close, chat, food etc.

"Let all things be done decently and in order" (1Cor.14:40)

When you say «gifts of tongues» do you mean those of us who are polyglots, for whom learning languages is effortless?

My only experience with «tongues» was at a foreign church (in New Orleans, USA) when the pastor blurted out gibberish for a while while prancing about on...stage. It just seemed weird.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: When you say «gifts of tongues» do you mean those of us who are polyglots, for whom learning languages is effortless?

My only experience with «tongues» was at a foreign church (in New Orleans, USA) when the pastor blurted out gibberish for a while while prancing about on...stage. It just seemed weird.

Hi FL, no, it refers to a miraculous working of the Holy Spirit whereby people speak out in a language they have never learned and which they don't understand, so someone else will receive an interpretation from the Holy Spirit so that all present can understand the message God is giving to His church.

I hope you visit a church where this is done in an orderly way (no "prancing about").

Like all my friends I pray in tongues privately, but, in a meeting I may or may not receive a gift of tongues (*giving* to the church).

On a separate point, I am enjoying learning Portuguese for a possible visit to Brazil, but I wish I could say it was effortless!

Kurieuo, I agree with a lot of what you say, but I do believe that the video does demonstrate enough 'similarities' and thus 'alarm bells' should be ringing. Actually, I don't need to see the 'eastern', new age manifestations, to know that the shameful 'antics' going on in those (American) 'churches' certainly wasn't 'good' or 'holy'. I've never gone to a 'church' like the ones in the video and so the 'manifestations' have usually been on a smaller scale and so more insidious. At my recent church I 'tried', only one person (out of about thirty) 'laughed' (quietly chuckled now and then) and so the 'power' is on a smaller scale, but is still the same power- I believe.

TallMan, thanks for your comments. I do believe a lot of this stuff is through suggestion and works the same way Derren Brown's hypnoticism works. I would just say, in my case, at no time was there any suggestion I was going to feel a power or cry or anything like that. This was a small house group meeting with only about five of us. The next time I went, I was expecting a similar experience but it didn't happen, so I believe this 'power' was real and 'showed up' very unexpectedly, but I'm open to it being a similar phenomenon to Derren Brown's hypnoticism. I've watched a lot of his 'shows' and I remember watching one where he was with a woman and she ended up doing stuff that I don't think he'd suggested but I remember thinking, 'wow, maybe this is how it's done in the churches'. I will have to try to find the footage of it.

For any one interested in Derren Brown, here is one of his famous 'events':

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLbesxxKzcM

If you watch the first couple of minutes, I'm sure your appetite will be whetted.

TallMan wrote:Hi FL, no, it refers to a miraculous working of the Holy Spirit whereby people speak out in a language they have never learned and which they don't understand, so someone else will receive an interpretation from the Holy Spirit so that all present can understand the message God is giving to His church.

I hope you visit a church where this is done in an orderly way (no "prancing about").

TallMan,

I usually avoid charismatic or Pentecostal churches because very emotional worship doesn't suit my personality. If I'm ever on vacation somewhere and that type of church is the only one available, so be it...but I wouldn't deliberately seek such a church out. I'm not criticizing it, though. «Different strokes for different folks» as they say.

I remember now: I know this guy who prays in tongues and he even does «automatic writing» in an alphabet only he can understand. I worked with him for over a year and I have no doubt that he is saved...but he's still bizarre from my point of view.

TallMan wrote:On a separate point, I am enjoying learning Portuguese for a possible visit to Brazil, but I wish I could say it was effortless!

I hope you are learning Brazilian Portuguese! It is simpler than the European variety.

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I usually avoid charismatic or Pentecostal churches because very emotional worship doesn't suit my personality. If I'm ever on vacation somewhere and that type of church is the only one available, so be it...but I wouldn't deliberately seek such a church out. I'm not criticizing it, though. «Different strokes for different folks» as they say.

"they" say a lot of things!
My reading of the scriptures (1 Corinthians 14 especially) leads me to no other conclusion that God is quite particular about what suits him. After detailing it Paul says:
"If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord." (v37)

Reading from chapter 11 (and considering the principles of Ephesians 4 and the mission of the church to be God's witnesses to the unsaved, I believe a public church meeting should contain the following elements, all done "decently and in order":

Spiritual songs & hymns, personal testimony, communion (generally once a week), 2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each with interpretation, 2 or 3 prophecies, talk (words of wisdom and knowledge), prayer for needs and opportunity for baptism.

I believe "emotionalism" is of "the flesh" and in my experience disappears when people have received some clear teaching on how God works and why.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: I remember now: I know this guy who prays in tongues and he even does «automatic writing» in an alphabet only he can understand. I worked with him for over a year and I have no doubt that he is saved...but he's still bizarre from my point of view.

I've met people that made up language and writing as children, it doesn't edify them spiritually and you have shown it doesn't exactly convince people of their need for what God offers.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: I hope you are learning Brazilian Portuguese! It is simpler than the European variety.FL

Oh yes!
I don't like the eth's instead of s's!

TallMan wrote:Reading from chapter 11 (and considering the principles of Ephesians 4 and the mission of the church to be God's witnesses to the unsaved[)]

I'm assuming you are speaking of chapter 11 of First Corinthians, above. This chapter seems to deal with the decorum needed when a group of people are worshipping together.

TallMan wrote: I believe a public church meeting should contain the following elements, all done "decently and in order":

I agree - somewhat - except that I would replace the word «should» with «may» so that it would read:

I believe a public church meeting may contain the following elements, all done "decently and in order"

TallMan wrote:Spiritual songs & hymns, personal testimony, communion (generally once a week), 2 or 3 gifts of tongues, each with interpretation, 2 or 3 prophecies, talk (words of wisdom and knowledge), prayer for needs and opportunity for baptism.

I am aware that you are under fire for your belief that tongues must be present for a person to be considered born-again. I can't say that I agree with you but I don't consider this to be really important. I consider it somewhat analogous to whether air conditioning is necessary in a car or not.

+ + +

Where are you planning to go in Brazil?

FL

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote:I'm assuming you are speaking of chapter 11 of First Corinthians, above. This chapter seems to deal with the decorum needed when a group of people are worshipping together.

Yes, and chapter 12 & 14 are a continuation of that.

Fürstentum Liechtenstein wrote: Where are you planning to go in Brazil?
FL

No plans, but we have large & growing assemblies in Fortaleza and one or two other smaller locations.
Also Brazil is booming economically so it might be useful for business.

Yes Catherine (I know you posted awhile ago) the Kundilini Spirit can come upon anyone in almost any powerful belief system. It is electrical energy that shoots up your spine and if it breaks through, which is not always the case, your body knows if your ready or not, it will shoot up into your brain and out of your head.
I believe the experience the poster felt was a common experience of any group ritual. Ritual stimulates the unconcious mind with symbols, wether words or actions, and if a group engages deeply and sincerely enough the collective unconcious gets engaged and then you can feel everyone elses energy like it's part of you and I bet you just got a bit overloaded with energy and this can feel bad but the more you experience it the more energy you can handle.

What Is The Kundalini Spirit? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpSqePkn-p0

After my kundilini rose I experienced a completeluy false reality followed by experiencing the budic state of mind (space and time stop). So now I don't trust that our reality isn't an illusion.