Kurieuo wrote:catherine wrote:Kurieuo, out of interest, who would you 'side' with: Craig or Bradley?
Definitely Craig.
First of all I'd just say that I believe an honest study of Biblical Hebrew and Greek shows clearly that a literal place of eternal torment that we now call 'hell',
does not exist. Punishment, judgment exist. Pain and suffering as a consequence of punishment exist. A place of the dead I believe is the grave. This is another big subject which I have debated before, in particular with B.W. I'll assume that maybe such a place really could exist, as I'd like to draw attention to a few points that Craig makes, and which I've had presented to me before:
Craig said:
''Thus, in a sense, God doesn't send anybody to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him. But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.''
If Hell is real, and God is in control of ALL things and created ALL things, then to say He doesn't actually 'send us' there is illogical in my mind. When God warned Adam and Eve what the consequences of disobeying Him (ie sin), would be, He didn't say 'eternal seperation in a place of torment', but rather 'death' ie you will die. (The wages of sin is death, which is the opposite of life). Now surely if such a fate is awaiting those who refuse to come to Christ, then surely it should have been mentioned right from the start. It's not even in the small print.
I would also add that more and more we are discovering how determined behaviour is. Our wills are not truly 'free'. We have choices that are limited and driven by other factors. I mentioned before how we can't direct our own steps, our hearts are wicked etc. If I had a malfunctioning computer anti-virus programme, I'd not trust it to keep my computer safe. I'd hardly be able to blame it, when things went wrong. Our eternal destiny cannot be entrusted to us because we are not the Creator, or in charge. He gives life and He takes life and He restores life. Rom 11:32:For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.''
Craig then goes on further to say:
''Now, of course, nobody commits an infinite number of sins in the earthly life. But what about in the afterlife? Insofar as the inhabitants of hell continue to hate God and reject Him, they continue to sin and so accrue to themselves more guilt and more punishment. In a real sense, then, hell is self-perpetuating. In such a case, every sin has a finite punishment, but because sinning goes on forever, so does the punishment.''
If this is true, then creation has not been reconciled, sin has not been overcome, all tears and pain have not been removed. God is not All in All because the majority of His creation, the ones made in His image, will be festering, suffering, hating for all eternity in a realm God preserves. This is so repugnant and wrong and goes in the face of scripture, whose central message is surely reconciliaiton and restoration. Sin will no longer be in existence. 'Enemies' of God will no longer be in existence. To attribute this wicked idea to God who is love, is surely the imaginings of a malfunctioning mind. 'Sinning goes on for ever'- what a statement. Either Christ reconciles All things or He actually didn't do a great job, seeing as most of His creation is left to sin for ever and ever. What a ludicrous, crazy idea!
Finally Craig also said:
''No Christian likes the doctrine of hell. I truly wish with all my heart that universal salvation were true. But to pretend that people are not sinful and in need of salvation would be as cruel and deceptive as pretending that somebody was healthy even though you knew that he had a fatal disease for which you knew the cure.''
This statement is classic of how UR is misrepresented. UR does in no way claim people are not sinful etc. All of us are dying because we all sin. We are all malfunctioning, some worse than others. We all need reconciliation and the only way for reconciliation is through Christ. Now Christ knows the cure for our malfunctioning, and the ones who because of the malfuncitons can't understand or appreciate the cure, can surely be cured, so that they can accept Christ in a 'free' way. If that is not the case and they can't be cured, then they will return to the dust they came from ie they will return to the state prior to their conception, which is non existence. That is eternal punishment. However, I believe the 'evidence' is strong enough to have a real hope that All will be reconciled and not one sheep will be lost in the end because as Romans says, God (against our wills) subjected us to disobedience (by allowing us to be born into a malfunctioning body and nature) but will subject ALL to mercy.
ONe last thought which I think I mentioned earlier: As God knows the end from the beginning, He knows what will happen etc, He knew that man would fall and most would reject Him, so before He created the universe and Man, He knew Hell would have to exist to 'house' most of His creation. Now why would a God of love want to have a situation where most of His creation will forever be writhing in hatred, agony, suffering or whatever, in a 'prison', whilst the lucky few live in paradise (assuming their memories have been wiped of their loved ones now existing forever alongside them (in the Matrix dimension!) but in agony unimaginable, when of course God looks on at the suffering for ever and ever). This goes against every grain of intelligence and feeling I possess: that God knowingly created the inevitability of Hell. This would surely mean the Devil did win. He took so many casualties and 'forced' God to maintain them in the lake of fire (or a place like that represented in 'The Great Divorce'), for ever and ever . My brain is actually 'hurting' at the thought of such a thing.
