Evidence for God from Science

It can be hard to find a comfortable place to worship....combine the normal anxieties associated with mingling with a larger group with trying to find a good fit with regards to the dynamics of worship, teaching, mission and of course making certain that the church is focused on God ...it can be hard.

Some elements of finding a church are simply more logistical in nature....It helps to examine your own preferences. I have found that I like a smaller church, where it is easier to maintain a level of intimacy. Large churches overwhelm me....

I also found that I like the type of church that is slightly more liturgical in style, although certainly not quite the large scale liturgy of some churches, but I like thinking about the worship as well as singing and praying...

Now we can say that these things are not the priority and of course the first priority is making sure they focus on God (absolutely that is the priority) but once you establish that as your priority there are simply vast possibilities for worshiping with other believers and some of the formats are more or less comfortable for all of us.

Of course...the ultimate priority is to make sure that the churches are worshiping GOD....everything else is just icing on the cake.

Once you have truly found Christ, you have found the church. In fact you are the church, at least a part. A genuine, faihtful and true congregation is what you will have trouble finding.

Fellowhip with believers is critical to your growth. We are to meet together. To strengthen, teach, correct, guide, love and much more. We will pray and thank God that He will lead you to such. You will only find such, because God desires to feed you.

Back to the initial point of this thread. This is in general Catherine and not specifically towards you, although it may apply.

Is an 'experience,' essential to salvation? Some would say yes and others know. I had an experience, yet I know many who have not. One thing I am certain of though. Seeking an experience is NOT the same as seeking God. Nor is seeking a 'feeling.' God can and does use feelings, but we must understand that spiritual things are spiritually discerned. And a spiritual encounter is different than an emotional experience, which is what most human 'feeling' is based on. A real spiritual experience can and may manifest in emotion and feeling. But the emotion and feeling is only the shallowest of deep waters.

Yes, I believe that spiritual awakening is a reality and conformation from God. Oddly, we want conformation and signs. But when we seek signs, feelings and such, will God reward this? I think not. Those who seek HIM with their whole heart, will seek Him and FIND Him. So if we are seeking the experience, we are not seeking Him. That is seeking to scratch and itch. And I am convinced that at its core is the flesh. And it is also odd that we can not seek Him unless He draws us. Genuine salvation is always a product of God's grace that goes before us. It can not be manufactured.
We are not saved by head knowledge, but when we move from head knowledge to heart belief. Trust is always a matter of the heart. A response. It doesn't matter what you know informationally. What matters is what you know in your heart. Before I got married, I knew all kinds of information about my wife. But when we wed I took a step of faith. Not because I didn't know who she was, but because I DID know who she was. And in this step of faith (trust) we were united. Not because we knew a bunch of stuff about the other. But because we put our trust in each other.

So often we try to reduce and dilute heart realities down to things we can more easily get our hands around. Methods, strategies, programs, ritual, etc. But all this is worthless if the heart is not in it. You can say the sinners prayer over and over. You can go through a cathechism. But if there is no move of the heart, then there is no trust, and no salvation. Trusting Christ is beleiving in who He is, what He said, and what He did. Knowing in your heart, that who He is, what He said, and what He did is the everything your life hinges on, and everything you need.

Everything about salvation is 'IN' Christ. We don't make much of that little word. But the bible says that whoever believes (faiths, trusts) 'IN' Him, has eternal life. Is it any wonder that Paul used the phrase, "in Him," or, "In Christ" about 200 times in his writings.

For Catherine or anyone. You can't "try" yourself to salvation. Salvation is in Him. And that is where we need to be.

I agree that 'fellowship' is vital. I don't just want to be a 'foot' plodding about. I want to be part of a vibrant 'body' where we help each other.

I would just say that the only spiritual experience I am actively seeking is 'assurance' that Jesus is who He claims to be and that I am saved. Jesus said it was better He did go away so that we could receive the Counselor and Comforter. In order to 'love' Jesus and believe He is who He said He was, I need more than just 'knowledge'. I need assurance. I don't 'know' for sure if Jesus really is 'real' or if I'm 'saved', so because of these doubts I am seeking more than just 'head knowledge'. I'm seeking a relationship with God. Jesus said 'if you love Me you will obey my commandments'. Love is the motivator. I just want the Holy Spirit to 'activate' my tiny spec of faith because then I'll have assurance that He is real and is the Saviour. How can I 'share the good news' with others if I'm not sure about it myself? I keep praying that my doubts will be dealt with and that I will some day receive the assurance I crave. Am I being unrealistic?

I need assurance. I don't 'know' for sure if Jesus really is 'real' or if I'm 'saved', so because of these doubts I am seeking more than just 'head knowledge'. I'm seeking a relationship with God. Jesus said 'if you love Me you will obey my commandments'. Love is the motivator. I just want the Holy Spirit to 'activate' my tiny spec of faith because then I'll have assurance that He is real and is the Saviour. How can I 'share the good news' with others if I'm not sure about it myself? I keep praying that my doubts will be dealt with and that I will some day receive the assurance I crave. Am I being unrealistic?

This is one of those things I'd love to sit down and discuss over coffee or tea. So much can be lost in translation.
Remember that the counselor is sent to those who have already believed.

Do you feel that God is drawing you?

Also remember that your doubts are just that. Your doubts. I know plenty who have had supernatural experiences and still have doubts. Pharoah had plenty of evidence. What about the Pharisees? How many people saw Jesus work first hand, yet continued in unbelief. My most profound spiritual experience occurred when I was 13. I am now 39. You think I haven't had doubts in 26 years?
The good news is only good news if you trust in it.

Set your doubts aside for a moment and allow me ask you this, why is the good news, good news to you?

jlay wrote:
Do you feel that God is drawing you?

Also remember that your doubts are just that. Your doubts. I know plenty who have had supernatural experiences and still have doubts. Pharoah had plenty of evidence. What about the Pharisees? How many people saw Jesus work first hand, yet continued in unbelief. My most profound spiritual experience occurred when I was 13. I am now 39. You think I haven't had doubts in 26 years?
The good news is only good news if you trust in it.

Set your doubts aside for a moment and allow me ask you this, why is the good news, good news to you?

I don't know if it's God or my own longing that keeps 'drawing me' to seek Him. If it was God drawing me, why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me assurance? I came across this verse yesterday: 1 Thess 1:5:
'''For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true.''

I've been told the 'Good News' that the Living God sent His only Son to come and save us, so that we can be free from sin, suffering and death and can live with Him in paradise forever, in love, peace and unimaginable joy. I believe this is really good news. I hear the 'words' and I've seen and felt 'power' but I've not been given 'full assurance' that what I've heard is true (and not just a story).

The only time I felt 'assurance' was when I was 14/15 and I was studying the Bible with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember feeling relieved that I was going to survive Armageddon and live on the paradise earth. I didn't really have any major doubts at that time. As I progressed with the study I wasn't happy with some of their doctrines and I left. Also I couldn't live a 'perfect life' and I wanted to have a boyfriend and do lots of bad things. When I left I immediately 'felt' unsaved and knew I'd be destroyed at Armageddon. Ive never had the same 'assurance' I felt back then. I know I was young back then and so the 'feeling' I felt then was probably the same as I used to feel when I prayed to Mary or a Saint (I was brought up a Roman Catholic til about 12). You are more trusting and accepting when you are young. Anyway, this verse in 1 thess 1:5 is very powerful in what it is claiming. I pray that this verse will apply to me. I feel very 'low' today and feel like 'chucking it all in'. Why does God not answer me?

Who was it who said they are not sure that jesus is real? Well I dont know about is, but im pretty sure he WAS a real person. I dont know if that helps so whatever. Also he happened to be quite the action hero(obviously he was a man of more than just words)

Allthough it would probably take a lot of convincing to tell me that hes somehow a god, and maybe some mind control. I wont just dismiss the suggestion out of hand though, there are some quite disagreeable alternatives.

Might I point out that even athiests have "spiritual" experiences. They just aren't tied to anything religous are they...I kind of got one of those feelings when i turned my PC on for the first time, probably not the right sort of reaction since its only a tool.

catherine wrote:

jlay wrote:
Do you feel that God is drawing you?

Also remember that your doubts are just that. Your doubts. I know plenty who have had supernatural experiences and still have doubts. Pharoah had plenty of evidence. What about the Pharisees? How many people saw Jesus work first hand, yet continued in unbelief. My most profound spiritual experience occurred when I was 13. I am now 39. You think I haven't had doubts in 26 years?
The good news is only good news if you trust in it.

Set your doubts aside for a moment and allow me ask you this, why is the good news, good news to you?

I don't know if it's God or my own longing that keeps 'drawing me' to seek Him. If it was God drawing me, why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me assurance? I came across this verse yesterday: 1 Thess 1:5:
'''For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true.''

I've been told the 'Good News' that the Living God sent His only Son to come and save us, so that we can be free from sin, suffering and death and can live with Him in paradise forever, in love, peace and unimaginable joy. I believe this is really good news. I hear the 'words' and I've seen and felt 'power' but I've not been given 'full assurance' that what I've heard is true (and not just a story).

The only time I felt 'assurance' was when I was 14/15 and I was studying the Bible with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember feeling relieved that I was going to survive Armageddon and live on the paradise earth. I didn't really have any major doubts at that time. As I progressed with the study I wasn't happy with some of their doctrines and I left. Also I couldn't live a 'perfect life' and I wanted to have a boyfriend and do lots of bad things. When I left I immediately 'felt' unsaved and knew I'd be destroyed at Armageddon. Ive never had the same 'assurance' I felt back then. I know I was young back then and so the 'feeling' I felt then was probably the same as I used to feel when I prayed to Mary or a Saint (I was brought up a Roman Catholic til about 12). You are more trusting and accepting when you are young. Anyway, this verse in 1 thess 1:5 is very powerful in what it is claiming. I pray that this verse will apply to me. I feel very 'low' today and feel like 'chucking it all in'. Why does God not answer me?

Hi Catherine.

I apologise in advance for psychoanalysing and feel free to correct anything. However could it be your experience with JWs left you spiritually wounded? To the point that such a jarring experience, being convinced of your religious belief to then see through it, left you quite torn faith-wise? Maybe there is some personal hurting you need to tackle and heal from.

Re: assurance, I am not really sure what you are looking for. A religious experience? Burning bush? Bright light? Proofs? Connectedness? Given your mention of "assurance" back when you were a JW, it sounds like you had a feeling of spiritual connectedness. But was this assurance really assurance? A false sense of security is really no security at all.

I remember my childhood Christianity, and certainly I was more open to experiencing God. Now, I have all these reasons to believe, and experience takes second place. While I know and perceive God, I rarely experience God's presence. There are unexpected times, sometimes during prayer, or during worship at church... this helps to confirm a personal God is real, but is by no means why I believe He is so now although it once was when I was a child.

Anyway, just rambling out some thoughts...

My closet is my church. If you don't feel comfortable praying openly in public then pray in your closet. It's about having a relationship with Christ, not other people.

God bless

Kurieuo wrote:
I apologise in advance for psychoanalysing and feel free to correct anything. However could it be your experience with JWs left you spiritually wounded? To the point that such a jarring experience, being convinced of your religious belief to then see through it, left you quite torn faith-wise? Maybe there is some personal hurting you need to tackle and heal from.

Re: assurance, I am not really sure what you are looking for. A religious experience? Burning bush? Bright light? Proofs? Connectedness? Given your mention of "assurance" back when you were a JW, it sounds like you had a feeling of spiritual connectedness. But was this assurance really assurance? A false sense of security is really no security at all.

I remember my childhood Christianity, and certainly I was more open to experiencing God. Now, I have all these reasons to believe, and experience takes second place. While I know and perceive God, I rarely experience God's presence. There are unexpected times, sometimes during prayer, or during worship at church... this helps to confirm a personal God is real, but is by no means why I believe He is so now although it once was when I was a child.

Anyway, just rambling out some thoughts...

I do believe my experience with the JWs left me spiritually wounded. They are 'against' Christendom and so do a good job of putting you off 'churches'.
It wasn't so much me 'seeing through their errors' but more me 'turning my back of 'the truth' as they call it. I could see they were wrong on things like 'blood', but I thought they were 'right' on enough stuff. They are very legalistic and I found it hard to live that way e.g going out on the work every week, trying to distance myself from the 'world' when I lived in a house of 'unbelievers'. It made me depressed. I'd already had boyfriends by 15 so I had the tug of the world and it's ways beckoning me back and so I left them (and I thought God). When I went to the meetings I did feel a 'connectedness' there which I don't think I've ever felt so strongly at any church. I was young though and you are more impressionable when you are young, so I don't know if that assured feeling was spiritual or just me feeling secure amoung people who seemed to be God's people.

As for 'assurance' I don't believe it is a 'road to Damascus' experience I'm wanting. I know Jesus isn't going to appear to me and confirm all my doubts etc and say 'be assured now'. It's an inner working of the Holy Spirit that the scriptures tell us He does. The Holy Spirit is to bear witness with my spirit that the 'good news' is indeed true etc and the result of that is assurance, peace maybe. Perhaps I've sinned too much and turned my back on God too many times and I can't receive the Holy Spirit? When I've gone to churches in the past year I've been hoping to 'meet' Jesus there, that is, know He is present in His Spirit. I even go to a Christian Book Shop in their cafe hoping He'll be there and help me.

If we look at that verse I quoted from 1 Thess 1:5, this is a powerful verse. It is saying to me that just having a 'head knowledge' of the 'good news' isn't what you receive in the 'New Covenant'. You also receive the Holy Spirit which brings alive this head knowledge so that you have the assurance that this knowledge is true. I don't think I've received the baptism of the Holy Spirit yet, and maybe I need laying on of hands for that. I'm praying about whether this is the case and if God can provide the means to me receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit, whether on my own or by the help of two or three gathered in His name. Maybe I need to have water baptism first. I got baptised in the sea about 15 years ago, but at the time I don't know if I was really doing it for the right reasons or to please other people. I'm not sure.

You can distance yourself from people here too, by ignoring them. I guess you dont mind hurting someone else if it makes you feel good.

"Hey they are just infidels right! they aren't humans like us!"-sure i admit it i AM a robot.

A lot to take in here. May take more than one post.

catherine wrote:The Holy Spirit is to bear witness with my spirit that the 'good news' is indeed true etc and the result of that is assurance, peace maybe.

Maybe?
Catherine, it could be that you are confused in some things regarding the HS, assurance, peace, etc, and how, when, and why we receive them. And just what it all is? According to the scriptures, when does one receive the HS?
How?
Why?

I know this can all be confusing, because there are certainly varying opinions on this, and just what it means. But the answers are there, for you.

Perhaps I've sinned too much and turned my back on God too many times and I can't receive the Holy Spirit? When I've gone to churches in the past year I've been hoping to 'meet' Jesus there, that is, know He is present in His Spirit. I even go to a Christian Book Shop in their cafe hoping He'll be there and help me.

Sinned too much? Catherine, do not believe that. That is lie straight from the devil. There is nothing in the gospel message to defend such a position.
How can the HS bear witness if you do not have it? And I am not saying that you don't. But taking in these things that you say,(at face value) indicates you have not heard His message and trusted Him. That is why I asked, "what does the gospel mean to you?" You didn't indicate it meant anything personally, only what you have heard it is supposed to mean.

-If you are 'going' places to meet Jesus, then you are making an error. Jesus is not in a building. He met Paul on a road. He met Moses in a Bush. Peter in a boat. And the list goes on.

catherine wrote:
I don't know if it's God or my own longing that keeps 'drawing me' to seek Him. If it was God drawing me, why doesn't the Holy Spirit give me assurance? I came across this verse yesterday: 1 Thess 1:5:
'''For when we brought you the Good News, it was not only with words but also with power, for the Holy Spirit gave you full assurance that what we said was true.''

I've been told the 'Good News' that the Living God sent His only Son to come and save us, so that we can be free from sin, suffering and death and can live with Him in paradise forever, in love, peace and unimaginable joy. I believe this is really good news. I hear the 'words' and I've seen and felt 'power' but I've not been given 'full assurance' that what I've heard is true (and not just a story).

Sure, that is what you've been told. But what does it mean to you?
Why does Catherine need saving? Do you believe that you need saving?

The only time I felt 'assurance' was when I was 14/15 and I was studying the Bible with the Jehovah's Witnesses. I remember feeling relieved that I was going to survive Armageddon and live on the paradise earth. I didn't really have any major doubts at that time. As I progressed with the study I wasn't happy with some of their doctrines and I left. Also I couldn't live a 'perfect life' and I wanted to have a boyfriend and do lots of bad things. When I left I immediately 'felt' unsaved and knew I'd be destroyed at Armageddon. Ive never had the same 'assurance' I felt back then. I know I was young back then and so the 'feeling' I felt then was probably the same as I used to feel when I prayed to Mary or a Saint (I was brought up a Roman Catholic til about 12). You are more trusting and accepting when you are young. Anyway, this verse in 1 thess 1:5 is very powerful in what it is claiming. I pray that this verse will apply to me. I feel very 'low' today and feel like 'chucking it all in'. Why does God not answer me?

This is a darn good example of why we should not rely on feelings. You know that JW's are a cult and preach a false gospel. Yet you 'felt' assurance. I am sure there are Muslims, Buddhist, etc. that feel certain they are right. After all there are Muslims willing to blow themselves up because they are so SURE of their faith. What do their feelings, that they are right, have to do with truth? Very little. It is apparent to me that God has given you some spiritual clarity to recognize such. It sounds as if you are sure that JWs are wrong. And how could you be sure, unless there were something objectively right to measure it against. As far as God answering you. I would only warn that to get the right answers we must ask the right questions. Further, I would say that God has been and is answering you. It could be a matter of static. There is obviously a lot that has gone on in your past, that is interferring with your reception, so to speak.

Also, I am not sure how you are understanding 1 Thess 1:5 to apply in your situation. Can you clarify?
It is very important when going to the scripture to make sure that we rightly divide the word of truth. Grabbing verses here or there out of context, is only going to further confuse the matter, and leave you frustrated.

Catherine, please keep talking, and we'll try and walk this thing out.

My closet is my church. If you don't feel comfortable praying openly in public then pray in your closet. It's about having a relationship with Christ, not other people.

Danny, not to be rude, but that is just bad advice. Christ was all about others. His command was to love one another. Yes, it is about our relationship with Christ. No question. But in no way does that exclude others. Not in any way.

The11thDr. wrote:You can distance yourself from people here too, by ignoring them. I guess you dont mind hurting someone else if it makes you feel good.

"Hey they are just infidels right! they aren't humans like us!"-sure i admit it i AM a robot.

Not sure if I am understanding your motives correctly, but please show a little kindness, open-mindedness, and respect toward Catherine.

Thank you Doctor
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Hi Catherine,

Here are a couple of links posted below to review JW and what they do. Some of your fears and wanting assurance may stem from what you were exposed to by the JW's. They do use mind control and fear to control people. The bible and biblical Christianity does not, despite what critiques and a few rare atheists contend. We are called to examine / test meaning to look through the bible and test examine things as Acts 17:10-12 and 1 Thessalonians 5:21 illustrates. JW do not let its members do this.

Link CRAM

Link Further Info

Your longing for assurance is evidence that you are saved as well as developing faith. You would not have these otherwise as you description goes way beyond mere curiosity. You have longing. You can rest in the word that Christ gives in John 3:16 and John 10:28, 29.

Ephesians 1:5, 6, “He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” NASB

Despite what JW's teach — the Glory of God's grace is freely bestowed and never earned. You do not have to strive, or work for acceptance, it is free. Again welcome into the Kingdom of God child… and grow in agape love (the nurture, cherishing, and fostering) of God...

Maybe the first lesson to let you know you are accepted is for us to compare what you learned from the JW's with Orthodox Christian doctrine. So you can ask questions here. In this, maybe your first sign that your are accepted will speak to you in ways those who will try to help you may not even realize. Therefore:

What were the two most troubling things you learned from the JW's?

Please note that one of their techniques of mind control is to let members guess who is accepted as well as how to remain accepted. Members never have any full assurance of acceptance and what little they have is toward their own group and used as a means to produce guilt and fear within members and those whom they try to sawy so as to control them. They define faith more as fear than how the bible actually defines faith - the faith that works by love (cherishing, nurturing, fostering) not thru earning brownie points (Gal 5:6)

1 John 4:18, “There is no fear in love (cherishing, nurturing, fostering), but perfect love (cherishing, nurturing, fostering) casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love (cherishing, nurturing, fostering).” ESV
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The11thDr. wrote:You can distance yourself from people here too, by ignoring them. I guess you dont mind hurting someone else if it makes you feel good.

"Hey they are just infidels right! they aren't humans like us!"-sure i admit it i AM a robot.

Hey, I'm sorry if I ignored you. I nearly messaged you earlier and put 'lol' as your avatar is funny. I've not had a chance to watch the 'New Doctor' yet...... I'm not sure where you are coming from and didn't feel your comment was really relative to this topic. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

Jlay and B.W, thank you for your messages. I'll come back to you tomorrow. It's later than I thought and your messages will need some thought before I reply.

God bless.