Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:This was no simple bow of the head. He was almost on his goddamn knees. I'm afraid the implications of this at least in Muslim eyes is that we have the top man of a top Christian nation bowing to the level of this Muslim king's midrif. I'm afraid this looks completely horrendous if you are Christian and proud and know that the Muslim faith is a sham.

Danny, I agree with you on this. Obama's record with Israel, and this, are not good signs.

Rick, I believe any President of the USofA needs to be firm in his dealings with Israel/Middle East etc. He almost has to speak out against Israel in order to win the confidence of Muslim nations so peace can be a real goal. It's a bit like the nepotism factor, when a dad deliberately gives his boy more of a hard time than the rest of the team he coaches in order that the other boys believe (the dad) is playing straight with everyone.

But this is a whole different level. And I hardly blame you for questioning his WHOLE stance on foreign affairs when we see this fawning behaviour.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:

DannyM wrote:This was no simple bow of the head. He was almost on his goddamn knees. I'm afraid the implications of this at least in Muslim eyes is that we have the top man of a top Christian nation bowing to the level of this Muslim king's midrif. I'm afraid this looks completely horrendous if you are Christian and proud and know that the Muslim faith is a sham.

Danny, I agree with you on this. Obama's record with Israel, and this, are not good signs.

Rick, I believe any President of the USofA needs to be firm in his dealings with Israel/Middle East etc. He almost has to speak out against Israel in order to win the confidence of Muslim nations so peace can be a real goal. It's a bit like the nepotism factor, when a dad deliberately gives his boy more of a hard time than the rest of the team he coaches in order that the other boys believe (the dad) is playing straight with everyone.

But this is a whole different level. And I hardly blame you for questioning his WHOLE stance on foreign affairs when we see this fawning behaviour.

Danny, I'm not sure what you mean by speaking out against Israel. Haven't Muslim-middleeast leaders said that their goal is to wipe Israel of the face of the earth? Do you really think the US should be trying to win the confidence of Islamic terrorists? I believe one major reason that the US has been blessed as a nation is because our protection of Israel. Numbers 24:9

RickD wrote:Danny, I'm not sure what you mean by speaking out against Israel. Haven't Muslim-middleeast leaders said that their goal is to wipe Israel of the face of the earth? Do you really think the US should be trying to win the confidence of Islamic terrorists? I believe one major reason that the US has been blessed as a nation is because our protection of Israel. Numbers 24:9

Rick, what line should Obama take?

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, I'm not sure what you mean by speaking out against Israel. Haven't Muslim-middleeast leaders said that their goal is to wipe Israel of the face of the earth? Do you really think the US should be trying to win the confidence of Islamic terrorists? I believe one major reason that the US has been blessed as a nation is because our protection of Israel. Numbers 24:9

Rick, what line should Obama take?

The train line right out of D.C.

DannyM wrote:This was no simple bow of the head. He was almost on his goddamn knees. I'm afraid the implications of this at least in Muslim eyes is that we have the top man of a top Christian nation bowing to the level of this Muslim king's midrif. I'm afraid this looks completely horrendous if you are Christian and proud and know that the Muslim faith is a sham.

I wasn't aware the US was the "top Christian nation" or that Obama was representing Christians before Muslims in this regard. I guess that's why I'm missing the importance of this.

Did that stephen augustine really say that? when?

Canuckster1127 wrote:

DannyM wrote:This was no simple bow of the head. He was almost on his goddamn knees. I'm afraid the implications of this at least in Muslim eyes is that we have the top man of a top Christian nation bowing to the level of this Muslim king's midrif. I'm afraid this looks completely horrendous if you are Christian and proud and know that the Muslim faith is a sham.

I wasn't aware the US was the "top Christian nation" or that Obama was representing Christians before Muslims in this regard. I guess that's why I'm missing the importance of this.

Oh come on! Whether or not you see the US as Christian, I'd lay money that many Muslims and Christians around the globe see the US as Christian and Obama as her leader. That bow was farcical, surely? Anyhoo, I guess it's all about opinion.

The11thDr. wrote:Did that stephen augustine really say that? when?

Yes. St. Augustine did really say that. About the 5th century AD.

DannyM wrote:

Canuckster1127 wrote:

DannyM wrote:This was no simple bow of the head. He was almost on his goddamn knees. I'm afraid the implications of this at least in Muslim eyes is that we have the top man of a top Christian nation bowing to the level of this Muslim king's midrif. I'm afraid this looks completely horrendous if you are Christian and proud and know that the Muslim faith is a sham.

I wasn't aware the US was the "top Christian nation" or that Obama was representing Christians before Muslims in this regard. I guess that's why I'm missing the importance of this.

Oh come on! Whether or not you see the US as Christian, I'd lay money that many Muslims and Christians around the globe see the US as Christian and Obama as her leader. That bow was farcical, surely? Anyhoo, I guess it's all about opinion.

Pereception is reality in many cases. When we travel to foreign soil it's not unreasonable for US representatives to show respect by following the local protocol and customs. Neither is is unreasonable for foreign dignitaries to do the same things when they come to the US.

The US has at times created a lot of ill will by pushing and focusing upon our favored position and not treating other nations with more diplomacy and tact. That culminated in the Iraq War and the lack of support our actions garnered internationally. Perhaps Obama is moving too far in the other direction. That a matter of opinion and open to debate. However, there is no question that when he ran he made clear he intended to change the tone internationally and these changes in protocol are highly symbolic of that. They're not lost on the rest of the world either. Whether they will make a difference down the road remains to be seen. There's no question however that the rest of the world has responded mostly positively to this. Some of that played into why Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize before he even assumed office. It was something of an international statement of hope and belief that the tone and policy would change from the US.

I'm more concerned about how that is managed than whether Obama practices customs of respect with other dignataries. Other countries may have religion tied formally into their state customs and practices, but Obama is not a titular head of religion and doesn't represent Christendom before other nations in any way beyong his own personal beliefs which as far as I can see are not particularly strong but that's between him and God.

Now if the Pope starts bowing then I'm sure we'll hear something about it, at least from those who think he represents Christianity .......

As far as whether "pride" enters into it, I seem to recall Jesus serving and washing other's feet. I'm not sure that "Christian pride" would be something to appeal to in that regard at least as far as Christ Himself was concerned.

Canuckster1127 wrote:Pereception is reality in many cases. When we travel to foreign soil it's not unreasonable for US representatives to show respect by following the local protocol and customs. Neither is is unreasonable for foreign dignitaries to do the same things when they come to the US.

The US has at times created a lot of ill will by pushing and focusing upon our favored position and not treating other nations with more diplomacy and tact. That culminated in the Iraq War and the lack of support our actions garnered internationally. Perhaps Obama is moving too far in the other direction. That a matter of opinion and open to debate. However, there is no question that when he ran he made clear he intended to change the tone internationally and these changes in protocol are highly symbolic of that. They're not lost on the rest of the world either. Whether they will make a difference down the road remains to be seen. There's no question however that the rest of the world has responded mostly positively to this. Some of that played into why Obama received the Nobel Peace Prize before he even assumed office. It was something of an international statement of hope and belief that the tone and policy would change from the US.

I'm more concerned about how that is managed than whether Obama practices customs of respect with other dignataries. Other countries may have religion tied formally into their state customs and practices, but Obama is not a titular head of religion and doesn't represent Christendom before other nations in any way beyong his own personal beliefs which as far as I can see are not particularly strong but that's between him and God.

Now if the Pope starts bowing then I'm sure we'll hear something about it, at least from those who think he represents Christianity .......

As far as whether "pride" enters into it, I seem to recall Jesus serving and washing other's feet. I'm not sure that "Christian pride" would be something to appeal to in that regard at least as far as Christ Himself was concerned.

Bart,

It's surely right and proper to show respect to dignitaries of nations. I don't disagree with what you say. However Obama, for me, went way too far with that bow. I mean he actually bowed right down before this king; any lower and he would've been on his knees. I'm quite concerned about this president as a result of seeing that. If I found myself standing in front of the Queen, I'd bow my head. If I met a foreign dignitary, I'd adhere to protocol. What Mr. Obama did was practically fall at this man's feet.

Pride: Are you proud to be in Christ, Bart? I'm wasn't advocating impious pride.

Pride can be used in many senses. You'd have to define what you mean for me to answer your question as to pride. Am I ashamed of Christ? Of course not. However, do I believe failing to give respect to another nation or dignatary because of how high an opinion I hold of myself or my own nation, is a virtue? In general I don't think so. However, I don't identify anything Obama does or doesn't do as President of the US in terms of representing Christendom.

Christ said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's whether taxes, honor or respect. Jesus and the early Church didn't identify with nations believing that the kingdom of God was separate from them. It wasn't until the church merged with the state under Constantine that the concepts of "just war" and "christian nation" were formed in order to justify the 180 degree turn from what Christ taught and modeled. I really don't identify through Obama as anything other than an American and certainly not in terms of my faith, belief and relationship with Christ. That's as true of Obama as it was with Bush although I may have agreed with him more in terms of personal faith (although not as much lately.)

Canuckster1127 wrote:Pride can be used in many senses. You'd have to define what you mean for me to answer your question as to pride. Am I ashamed of Christ? Of course not. However, do I believe failing to give respect to another nation or dignatary because of how high an opinion I hold of myself or my own nation, is a virtue? In general I don't think so. However, I don't identify anything Obama does or doesn't do as President of the US in terms of representing Christendom.

Christ said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's whether taxes, honor or respect. Jesus and the early Church didn't identify with nations believing that the kingdom of God was separate from them. It wasn't until the church merged with the state under Constantine that the concepts of "just war" and "christian nation" were formed in order to justify the 180 degree turn from what Christ taught and modeled. I really don't identify through Obama as anything other than an American and certainly not in terms of my faith, belief and relationship with Christ. That's as true of Obama as it was with Bush although I may have agreed with him more in terms of personal faith (although not as much lately.)

Are you honoured to know Christ? I'm a little confused at how you are making the connection from pride in Christ to holding a "high opinion of" oneself. I'm saying that, if you are a proud Christian - having honour and dignity as a Christian - then you should be pretty appalled at seeing a so-called Christian fawning over an alien king. Any king! I've said nothing that would compromise the rendering unto caesar that which is caesar's. This is false idol stuff.

And whether YOU like it or not, America is identified as Christian by Muslim nations and millions of other Christians. I think it is time we became less like appeasers and more like proud Christians. And let's not get bogged down with references to impious pride when I am clearly talking about honour, dignity and humility in Christ. I'm not looking for a Christendom, I'm simply looking for a cut in the fawning and appeasement. When you dumb down your Christian-'ness' you invite persecution upon yourself; trust me, I live in a land where in some places "Christian" has become a dirty word.

I guess I see a gulf of difference between "Christendom" in the political and national sense, and what Jesus actually taught. Perhaps we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

DannyM wrote: I live in a land where in some places "Christian" has become a dirty word.

What land?

The11thDr. wrote:

DannyM wrote: I live in a land where in some places "Christian" has become a dirty word.

What land?

Think about it.