I think God made a mistake or he's insane

[dayage]

osirisravanz,

I would like you to respond to my post. I am not questioning your faith.

[osirisravanz]

B. W I appreiciate the reply, however none of those scriptures say that evil is necessary for there to be choice , also most of those verses were referring to a unrepenting Isreal.

[osirisravanz]

Dayage , i will comment but you asked a lot so i will answer a piece at a time if thats ok , if you look in Genisis you can clearly see that after God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowlegde of good and evil , that some time had expired before he actually ate of the fruit. this time period denotes that he had indeed made a choice not to eat of the tree at one point before he was tricked

[dayage]

osirisravanz,

You can answer any way you want.

if you look in Genisis you can clearly see that after God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowlegde of good and evil , that some time had expired before he actually ate of the fruit.

I agree.

this time period denotes that he had indeed made a choice not to eat of the tree at one point before he was tricked

No, the time gap simply goes along with the fact that God had given him tasks to do (Gen. 2:15, 19-23).

I do not disagree that Adam may have chosen not to eat. My point was that you required scripture from us to back our positions and I am requiring the same from you. Please be specific and not say things like "if you look in Genisis you can clearly see." I want to know where in Genesis. This will also help others who may be trying to follow our positions.

Again, Adam was not tricked.

[B. W.]

B. W I appreiciate the reply, however none of those scriptures say that evil is necessary for there to be choice , also most of those verses were referring to a unrepenting Isreal.

These however point out the biblical principles that choice does indeed exist; therefore, your accusation is in error.

Next Ezekiel 28:12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 also reveals the source of evil and how it came about. Note how the verses reveal that this being was in Eden and identified as the covering Cherub, Note verse 15.

Iniquity was found, not place, in this being. Again, God permits reason and choice. He dealt with this one at the cross and resurrection of Christ (John 12:31-32) and will deal with evil in a just manner that is even equitious to the one found with evil in his being. How, by not denying life he gave for to take it away into a state of non-being would be unjust for a just God to do who honors his words and gifts. There is more but I perceive that you are incapable and unwilling to accept any answers except your own. I maybe wrong about this — so let me know.

Next, It does not matter what God foreknows — it is that he will overcome evil and be rid of it justly in due time. So , I'll leave you with a question:

How do you refine Gold, Silver, precious metals?
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[osirisravanz]

Dayage the purpose of my post was not to show my knowledge of scripture location, but to find out if God can make a mistake or if he is insane. the only way to do that is at the source, at the beginning. lets look at some facts. 1 God is all knowing, or he is not. Even in Genisis God gives us some dought about if he is all knowing when he ask Adam where are you? or was that a rhetorical question. if it was a rhetorical question that would suggest that he was lying , because to say where are you and you already know where he is , is lying. Lets assume he is all knowing, then he would know if adam would eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil on his own accord, therefore satan would not have been necessary. But if he knew that Adam would not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil on his own then satan would be necessary. 2 The massive time gap between when God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil and when he took the first bite. there are thousands of animals on this planet and Adam was given the task to name them all. How long do you think that took? a few minutes? a couple of hours? A month or two? A year? the point is it took some time and in that time im pretty sure adam ate something. then he took a nap and bam woman is on the scene. So are you people trying to say that the first thing eve ate was from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I dont think so. the purpose of this reply is to establish that adam had already exercised his free will by not eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil many times before the serpent came on the scene.

[osirisravanz]

B.W I never said that choice does not exist, the only reason i brought up choice is because it is the foundation of this site and your belief system. When you talk to the atheist on this site you always say to them that they could not have a God that does not allow evil because there would be no free will without it. I am hear to teach you that in the very book that you love shows free will was used without the knowledge of good and evil. ie. Adam.

[osirisravanz]

Evil did not exist when Satan chose to sin (Is. 14:12-17; Ezek. 28:12-19). Because of pride, Satan wished to take God's place. [quote][/quote]

hey dayage i got this from you , thanks for proving my point that evil is not required to have free will.

[DannyM]

if my definition of faith is so narrow how is it that Hebrews 11:1 confirms it

New International Version (©1984)
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

And you think that's it? Explain how this can be the only definition of faith? Also, you have been asked to back up your assertion that Adam actually cjose not to eat of the fruit...Unless I have missed it, you have just ignored any request to back up your astounding assertions...We can move forward once you have done this. And yes, I'll play along and call you a Christian.

[Kurieuo]

First i want to say that God new that he was going to die on the cross, because he told us so in thesilonians, which means he new that Adam was going to eat of the fruit.

Indeed, Christ was predestined.

Now in Adams defense I want to say that he had already decided not to eat of the fruit. And God new that Adam would not eat of the fruit of his own volition. so he needed a little push. ie, Satan. So God allowed Satan to trick Adam. Come on guys don't tell me that God who is all knowing did not know What Satan was going to do. So that means that he allowed it.

If Adam already decided not to disobey God, then why did he eventually choose to disobey God? Also, it was Eve Satan deceived, and Eve in turn deceived Adam. Is Eve to blame for Adam's sin as Satan is Eve's? I think you are going quite the extreme and in real life I'd guess you would have an issue with taking responsibility for your own actions.

There are many influences in our environment and also much pressure in society and peers to go with the flow. Does such cultural influences mean we have no choice to make a stand? I do not see how being influenced means we have no say in the matter. Adam and Eve being influenced did not mean they had no say in the matter.

You complicate matters by dwelling on God's setting the stage for His test of mankind with Satan. Why not go the simpler and say God placing the tree in the garden set them up for the fall. God could have after all not placed the tree in the garden. Is God not allowed to set up the scenario within which mankind's heart is properly tested?

I know , I know a lot of you guys believe that evil must be in the world so that we can have free will, however there is no scripture to back that up.

No scripture to back what up? I think you are confusing things here. It is reasoned that God providing us with the ability to make moral decisions means that some will choose to go against Him (do evil), not that "evil must be in the world so that we can have free will." Evil is a repercussion of free will, not vice-versa.

Its like telling my 5 year old daughter she can have all the milk she wants, but if you drink this chocolate milk you will surely die. And being a obedient child she decides to listen to her dady. However i then leave her with a child molester who convinces her to drink it, does this sound familiar.

This is a poor analogy. It sounds like you've got it figured out, so why even bother asking for opinion here? This board is for a specific audience. Please read our board purpose.

So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane.

I do not see how your argument follows. Perhaps you could clearly illustrate it as a syllogism.

I am looking forward to hear what you have to say. P.S I'm not a atheist. I pray in the spirit.

At least we know where atheists stand. Pray in the spirit? That means nothing and could mean anything.

[jlay]

I see a lot of mess in this thread from responses on both sides.

thanks for proving my point that evil is not required to have free will.

Is evil required to have free will? There you are board members. If you believe that evil is required to allow free will, simply address this point backing it up with scripture. And then maybe we can avoid all this gnashing of teeth.

osirisravanz wrote:
First i want to say that God new that he was going to die on the cross, because he told us so in thesilonians, which means he new that Adam was going to eat of the fruit.

Thessalonians was written after the crucifixion.

Hebrews 11:1 is a more than adequate definition of faith. For a Christian to argue that Heb 11:1 fails to define faith for the Christian is strange to say the least.

osirisravanz wrote:
So either God is not all knowing and perfect and can make a mistake, or he is insane.

Or God has a plan that you don't fully understand. Now, if you have all foreknowledge of every outcome, and you are able to know every thought of God and Adam, then maybe you have a case.

Some questions to think about:
Was God surprised when sin entered the world?
Is the potential for evil the same as evil itself?

osirisravanz, it is also important to note that not everyone who posts here agrees with everything that is included on the main page. I would be one of those. I would suggest that you phrase your questions in a fashion that elicits a more civil discussion. Your initial question was framed in such a way that said, I've got my mind made up and any other opinion is wrong and stupid.

[DannyM]

Hebrews 11:1 is a more than adequate definition of faith. For a Christian to argue that Heb 11:1 fails to define faith for the Christian is strange to say the least.

Can you show me how Hebrews 11:1 - "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - is absolute on the definition of faith? I suggest you actually read my posts before writing such inaccurate drivle.

[jlay]

Danny, if you want to get snarky so be it. It would be consistent with your behavior during the rest of the thread. I never used words like absolute. I stand by what I stated. For a Christian to argue that Heb 11:1 fails to define faith for the Christian is strange to say the least.

I would most assuredly say the burden of proof is on your end. since the bible SAYS, faith IS,..................

[DannyM]

Danny, if you want to get snarky so be it. It would be consistent with your behavior during the rest of the thread. I never used words like absolute. I stand by what I stated. For a Christian to argue that Heb 11:1 fails to define faith for the Christian is strange to say the least.

I would most assuredly say the burden of proof is on your end. since the bible SAYS, faith IS,..................

Too right, because I can spot an insincere poster a mile off. Would you call Jesus "snarky" when He was dealing with the fools and pharisees? Go on, call Jesus snarky...

Hebrews does not even suggest that this definition is to be absolute, so the burden is on you if you wish to take issue with my describing this as too narrow from the OP's perspective. Have you never looked outside of the bible for further reading, or do all of your thoughts come from the bible alone. I said the definition was too narrow. I stand by this and challenge you to show me that the Hebrews definition alone is to be kept with no further expansion. I like the Hebrews definition: I think it's great, but the OP was too narrow by sticking entirely with this definition. Frankly, it was risible!

[B. W.]

B.W I never said that choice does not exist, the only reason i brought up choice is because it is the foundation of this site and your belief system. When you talk to the atheist on this site you always say to them that they could not have a God that does not allow evil because there would be no free will without it. I am hear to teach you that in the very book that you love shows free will was used without the knowledge of good and evil. ie. Adam.

Atheist have a choice - they can come on this forum or not.

Next, you need to explore who God is as he is revealed within the bible. Ask questions, Search...

Next Adam and Eve knew what choice was and is. Evidence for this is discovered when they named the animals. What they named them, was their own choice. Next, God granted the exercise of dominion — this also involves using reason, intelligence, as well as making a choices. The evidence does not support what you are trying to teach. Even the Lord said to Adam not to eat of a certain tree — which also indicates choice.

Do understand these biblical principles?

1 Chronicles 29:17 - “I know, my God, that you test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness. In the uprightness of my heart I have freely offered all these things, and now I have seen your people, who are present here, offering freely and joyously to you.”

Psalms 11:4-5 — “The LORD is in his holy temple; the LORD's throne is in heaven; his eyes see, his eyelids test the children of man. 5 The LORD tests the righteous, but his soul hates the wicked and the one who loves violence.”

Jeremiah 17:10 - "I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds."

Psalms 7:9 - "Oh, let the evil of the wicked come to an end, and may you establish the righteous-- you who test the minds and hearts, O righteous God!"

Do you understand the biblical concept and principle of test?

AMG Word studies defines The Hebrew word translated as test as:

Strongs 974

ָבָּחַן
bāḥan: A verb meaning to examine, to try, to prove. This verb can refer to any type of test. Joseph tested his brothers (Gen 42:15-16); while Job and Elihu indicated that the ear tests words as the palate tastes food (Job 12:11; Job 34:3), thereby indicating that the hearer should be able to vindicate his or her assertions. However, it generally refers to God's testing of humanity. The psalmist acknowledges this fact (Psa_11:4-5) and even requests it (Psalms 139:23). The biblical writers sometimes compare God's testing to the refining of precious metals, like gold and silver (Job 23:10; Zec 13:9). There are also a few passages in which people test God, but these clearly state that this is not normal (Psa 95:9; Mal 3:10, Mal 3:15).

Proverbs 17:3 — “The crucible is for silver, and the furnace is for gold, and the LORD tests hearts.”

Again how to you purify precious metals?
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