Evidence for God from Science

Cactus wrote: and for_narniaaa I do not see how those verses help, you have to ask: was this man Right? if you can say "i believe" he was then you are sane...But if you say "I know he is" then that is a serious delusion. Men are flawed, is it such a destructive idea for Jesus of just to have been a man?

But you come across as not knowing what you believe. I am firm in my faith; I've witnessed a lot of the supernatural. You seem to be, as Zoegirl put it, "cherry picking" what sounds nice and makes you feel good from the Bible. And it is a destructive idea for Jesus to have just been a man, because then we are promoting a liar as a good teacher. Because, if you think he was just a man, then you surely also think he was a liar, as many times He proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God. (Unless, of course, you believe that the gospels weren't recorded faithfully, which makes it difficult to trust that Jesus' teachings really are His own at all. So that view in itself doesn't get you very far. If you think the Scriptures are inaccurate, then why are you "following" what they say about Jesus? Then you can't call yourself a follower of Jesus, but a follower of 'whoever happened to write these nice-sounding things down'.)

In my opinion, it's far more dangerous to deny God than it is to accept Him. While this is not my sole reason for believing, think about this: is it better to live like there a God and find out there isn't, or to live like there is no God and find out there is?

For_Narniaaa wrote: But you come across as not knowing what you believe.

Maybe I like not knowing. Leaves me a lot of room to learn. At least I know what I do not believe in.

I am firm in my faith; I've witnessed a lot of the supernatural.

Oh, really? I suppose you associate the Numinous experiences with the supernatural? I associate it with when I fix things and hope for them to work...and they do.

You seem to be, as Zoegirl put it, "cherry picking" what sounds nice and makes you feel good from the Bible.

No. I am looking for what can't be true, not what makes me feel good. A heaven for the innocent would make me feel good and a hell for the evil.

And it is a destructive idea for Jesus to have just been a man, because then we are promoting a liar as a good teacher.

Lying is one of the noblest qualities of man. Lies can be good, lies can save lifes. Lies can keep millions, nay billions of people happy. Who am I to destroy a happy lie?

Because, if you think he was just a man, then you surely also think he was a liar, as many times He proclaimed Himself to be the Son of God.

He preferred to call himself a "son of man".

(Unless, of course, you believe that the gospels weren't recorded faithfully, which makes it difficult to trust that Jesus' teachings really are His own at all. So that view in itself doesn't get you very far. If you think the Scriptures are inaccurate, then why are you "following" what they say about Jesus? Then you can't call yourself a follower of Jesus, but a follower of 'whoever happened to write these nice-sounding things down'.)

The part in the inverted commas could very well apply to billions of people. 'whoever happened to write these nice-sounding things down'.

In my opinion, it's far more dangerous to deny God than it is to accept Him. While this is not my sole reason for believing, think about this: is it better to live like there a God and find out there isn't, or to live like there is no God and find out there is?

Is that how you wish to end? With the oft repeated wager? How about I present you with my wager...Its better to lead a good life without worry about gods and hells than it is to lead a evil life while worrying about such things. Surely a benevolent god would look upon your life with mercy than to eternally torture you and if there is no god? Then at least you have made a positive impact on the world!

What about that? The danger of living a way you shouldn't be is more dangerous than not. What if Belief in god is not only supernatural but also unnatural? How do you know it is nothing more than a happy fantasy forced upon people?

Look, Cactus. You merely asked for our opinion in your original post of whether or not we believed it was possible to be a Christian and an atheist. We've given you answers, though you don't agree with them. That's as far as this topic goes. Your other claims (reliability of Scripture, fantasy of religion, etc.) are debated in many, many other threads.

Its better to lead a good life without worry about gods and hells than it is to lead a evil life while worrying about such things. Surely a benevolent god would look upon your life with mercy than to eternally torture you and if there is no god? Then at least you have made a positive impact on the world!

Quoting from the Word that I believe in, "All our righteous acts are like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6) The common morals of the Bible (don't steal, don't kill, etc.) are supported by numerous belief systems. Only the Christian belief says that those are not enough to make someone a good, righteous person, or to fix society. Therefore, it seems strange that you want to call yourself an atheist Christian when the religion you've chosen contradicts your worldview. That is all...

For_Narniaaa wrote:The common morals of the Bible (don't steal, don't kill, etc.) are supported by numerous belief systems. Only the Christian belief says that those are not enough to make someone a good, righteous person, or to fix society. -

Those morals are obvious, funny you mention that, but Why is having no other god before yahweh immoral? Because yahweh was an invention.

Therefore, it seems strange that you want to call yourself an atheist Christian when the religion you've chosen contradicts your worldview. That is all...
y@};

Actually I became this After being a Christian, I was so certain of God...Even thought I could hear him. I prayed and felt joy, I haven't stopped feeling joy, But the prayer doesn't come to me any more; the voice I thought was god's only seems to be my own voice echoing around my mind. If God is real and wasn't Just my imagination then given time He could come back to me. But for now I am not with God, I am With mankind. In my new sight it is all right for man to play god. We even know more of science than god seems to.

If god is the lord of lords and the king of kings, then all that needs doing is Commanding me. If Jesus is a true Man and true god. Then He will keep knocking on the door. Someday if I do hear the knocking of a God who is Christ, then I will let him into the door of my life. But for now I don't believe that there is a god.

I am not a blind person leading the blind. I am just trying to make my own way in a hostile universe. Maybe its a dead end, but its not up to me to find god, its up to god to find me. If there is a creator then he is responsible, if there isn't then it shifts the responsibility to those who believed themselves the created race.

You can call yourself anything you want, it doesn't mean you are a Christian.

Why would it matter that Son of Man was a title? You have already proclaimed that scripture has no authority whatsoever so why use it to support your view? According to you, the scriptures have no validity whatsoever so you cannot even use His own words. There is plenty of evidence throughout scripture, both Old Testament and New, that declares His deity.

You can say that you want to follow Christ, but if you do not acknowledge His deity, you are following a liar, a madman, a delusional crackpot who thought He was God. Because Christ declared that He was God.

If His statements are trustworthy then they are trustworthy, bottom line. Jesus proclaimed Himself Son of Man and Messiah, Son of God, He claimed equality with God.

It again seems rather humorous that you want to use CHrist's words in scripture that you disdain and reject, to declare his identity.

You asked our opinion, you have it. Right now you have nothing special with regards to beliefs, you are simply like any other atheist who proclaims that they are ok with jesus because he is a good teacher who plays nice and tells people to be nice.

planted evidence.

Cactus wrote:oh dont make the mistake that if you don't have an eternal life and judgement after this one then what you do doesn't matter. It does matter.(your impact on the world certainly matters!)

Mistake? I believe you to be seriously mistaken (or deluded) on this matter if you believe there is long lasting meaning without eternity.

Many secular philosophers treat this issue with a lot of seriousness. The most they seem to come up with is one must live life as though there is meaning. Despite the tragic situation we find ourselves within, we press on and keep going in spite of the cards "the gods" have dealt us. I fail to see the point personally.

Cactus wrote:I love the way the old testament God seems to abhor hatred(lol!). He hates it when people kill each other so much that he must eliminate them so they cant do it. The images of god you get from the old testament make you think...how did people fall for these other people who was just out to manipulate them?(that is if miracles really can't happen)

Your view seems sorely distorted as to the situation of Israel and Christian theological understanding.

Cactus wrote:why not?

I asked a member of clergy and he seemed to have no problem with the idea, I've become incredibly sceptical over the last two years, is that part of becoming 21?

So do you have to believe in God/supernature to be a follower of Jesus?

Heres another way of thinking about it, What if there was a person who lived as though god existed and did not believe in him and another who believed in god and lived a "godless" life...Who is being more moral? (by human standards and not some divine ultra strict unfair godly gold standard!)

Aren't actions more important than what we believe? This is why I like the shorter gospel of Mark, because its about Jesus' actions, in my mind it paints a more human picture than the other gospels especially John's(too much embellishment?)

S0 let us reason.

As to your first question (why not?), the answer would be the same reason that you can't mix oil and water. Or, if you prefer, why not put a lamb in a lion's den? Keep the lions hungry a few days, just for emphasis. It's obvious that Christianity is the lion in this instance, I hope.

Second question (So do you have to believe in God/supernature to be a follower of Jesus?)
Since Jesus is part of the Trinity, God in the flesh, being God in entirety, yes. To be a follower of God, you have to believe in God. Jesus is God, so believing in Him is pretty important if you're going to follow Him.

Third question (who is being more moral, by human standards and not some "divine ultra strict unfair godly gold standard"?)
Um...if you're going to judge morals by human standards, you're defeating the purpose. Human standards state that sex before and outside of marriage isn't so bad, that abortion isn't so bad, that sometimes drugs that are illegal for obvious reasons should be allowed, that success is defined as having stacks of money, houses, women, and whatever other vices you can think of, and above all, that God is just some long-bearded old man in a white robe sitting in heaven, not expecting anything of any of the human beings he's placed on earth. So, by human standards, nothing's wrong with being completely contradictory with your entire lifestyle and the purpose of said life-- or anything else, for that matter.

If you're willing to accept that since God is the Creator of the universe and ruler of all things in it and, therefore, His standards are what we should be thinking about, then
being a Christian (Literally = Follower of Christ, living like Christ, which entails believing in Him and trusting Him with your eternity) and being an atheist (someone who does not believe in a God or gods) is nonsense. Even if you took God out of that equation, logically, by definition, that's nonsense.

Fourth question (i love your questions, by the way) (Aren't our actions more important than what we believe?)
Your actions should show what you believe, or rather, what you believe should define what you do. If someone held a loaded gun to your head and told you that they were going to shoot you, your heart would start beating, you would be sweating, your throat would start to dry up, and other physical reactions that show that you truly believe in the power of that gun to impact your life.

And as a side note: All the gospels are about Jesus' actions, because they're all about His life on earth. It'd be hard to write books about a person's life that doesn't include their actions, now wouldn't it?
Being a Christian is not about having morality, morality just comes with it. If you're a Christian, you're a saved follower of Christ (by definition), and therefore doing what God tells you through the Bible (container of the only real morals you can depend on).