If babies automatically go to heaven...

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BavarianWheels
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by BavarianWheels »

Byblos wrote:Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?
Doesn't sound like you're even convinced. There are several people mentioned prior to Christ's resurrection that were "with the Lord". This then make your statement a bit off as heaven is possible prior to the resurrection. I'll simply stand with Christ's words. "Lazarus is sleeping...Lazarus is dead...Let us go to him..." Why not make a better point that we need not fear death since we go to "Abraham's bosom" and are safe there. Was Lazarus the only person brought back from death? If not, then the point had already been made or was made elsewhere.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by Byblos »

BavarianWheels wrote:
Byblos wrote:Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?
Doesn't sound like you're even convinced.
Really? Not sure how you came to that conclusion but ...
BavarianWheels wrote:There are several people mentioned prior to Christ's resurrection that were "with the Lord". This then make your statement a bit off as heaven is possible prior to the resurrection.
It does no such thing as "with the Lord" does not mean in heaven, unless you want to argue that God is located ONLY in heaven. The expression "with the Lord" means they died as believers. And if it were possible for people to be with the Lord in heaven, would that not make Christ's sacrifice superfluous? After all, some made it to heaven without his sacrifice.
BavarianWheels wrote:I'll simply stand with Christ's words. "Lazarus is sleeping...Lazarus is dead...Let us go to him..." Why not make a better point that we need not fear death since we go to "Abraham's bosom" and are safe there. Was Lazarus the only person brought back from death? If not, then the point had already been made or was made elsewhere.
Tell me, did Jesus preach a physical resurrection or not? If he did, how would you presume he'd do that without actually resurrecting a physical body? And more importantly, how would he do that without actually going to said physical body?

What does Hebrews 11:13 say about the Old Testament Saints?
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off.
They did not receive the fullness of the promise (heaven) because it wasn't available yet.

How about Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."
Did you catch that last one? What was the first testament? The old system of animal sacrifice. Those who followed the first testament will receive their eternal inheritance only through the death of Christ.

I hope I sound a little more convinced to you now.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

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Byblos wrote:I hope I sound a little more convinced to you now.
:) Yes. I was playing off your words, "...most likely in Sheol,..."
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

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CeTo posted a link to this article quoted below. It contains the basic info regarding this subject:
Hell Part 2: The Differences between Hades and the Lake of Fire

Matthew McGee

Now let's get into a little more detail by becoming familiar with some Hebrew and Greek words that are key to understanding this topic.

Sheol (Hebrew) - It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. It is the same as the Greek word "Hades", which we will look at in a moment. Prior to Jesus Christ's resurrection, both the souls of the evil and the righteous went there after death. It is translated "grave" 31 times, "hell" 31 times, and "pit" 3 times in King James Version (KJV) of the Bible.

Sheol (or Hades) has two separate halves. One side was and is reserved for the torment of the evil, while the other side, called "Abraham's Bosom" in Luke 16:22, was for the comfort of the righteous. There is and impassable canyon, or gulf, between the two halves. When Christ was resurrected, he led the righteous out of Sheol to Heaven. Many (probably not all) of the Old Testament saints were resurrected into their immortal bodies at that time (Matthew 27:51-53). Since then, the souls of all of the saved people go directly to Heaven when their bodies die. The lost people still go to Sheol and join the lost people of the Old Testament in torment on one side of the canyon when they die. The other side of Sheol formerly known as Abraham's Bosom has been vacant since Jesus Christ led the saints within it to heaven after His resurrection.

The English word "Hell" refers to a place of eternal punishment for the wicked. Its meaning does not distinguish between the two separate places for the wicked to be punished, one temporary for the soul, and the other, the Lake of Fire, permanent for the soul and body. Nor does its meaning include the place of comfort for saints prior to Christ's resurrection. In normal English conversation, "Hell" is used only in the negative sense, with no saved people ever going there.

This caused some inadequate translations of "Sheol" and "Hades". Often these words are translated "Hell", which, as just explained, is rather ambiguous and non-descriptive. In many other places "Sheol" and "Hades" are translated as "grave", but the grave is only the place for the body after death, not the place for the soul. This confusion often occurs when the verse refers to a righteous man going to "Sheol", such as men like Jacob, Joseph, (Genesis 37:35) and Job (Job 14:13). Of course, these men did not go to a place of torment, but to the comfort side of Sheol (Hades), called Abraham's Bosom.

Hades (Greek) - It is identical to Sheol (Hebrew). It is the non-permanent place or temporary address of the disembodied souls of dead. It is not the grave or sepulcher, nor is it the eternal location of the souls of the dead. Hades is translated "Hell" 10 times and "grave" once by KJV. It is the place for the soul, not the body.

Gehenna (Greek, but originally from a Hebrew name) - translated "Hell" all 12 times in KJV It is the permanent place for destruction of the "... soul and body ..." (Matthew 10:28). It is a place of "... fire that never shall be quenched" (Mark 9:45). In most of the references, it is clear from the context that those who enter Gehenna, do so in their bodies, not merely as bodiless souls. For this to happen, it must occur after the resurrection of the damned at the great white throne of judgment. Therefore, Gehenna is the Lake of Fire described in Revelation 19 and 20. It is presently uninhabited, but the Beast and the False Prophet will be cast into it at the end of the tribulation (Revelation 19:20). One thousand years later, Satan will be cast into it (Rev 20:10) and will be followed shortly by the lost people of all previous time periods (Revelation 20:15). They will all enter Gehenna together, in there resurrected bodies, where they will remain in torment for all eternity.

The future destruction of the wicked is symbolized by the Valley of Hinnom to which Gehenna refers. It is a place south of Jerusalem where the bodies of dead animals and rubbish were taken to be burned. The Valley of Hinnom was also the site of much human sacrifice to the pagan god Molech (2 Kings 23:10, 2 Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 32:35). The fire burned constantly in the valley since additional fuel was frequently being cast into it.

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place" (Jeremiah 7:31-32). Here we see that in the Valley of Hinnom is a place called "Tophet" whose name means "place of fire".
"For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it" (Isaiah 30:33).

limne pur (Greek) - "lake of fire" occurs 4 times, all in Revelation 19 and 20. This is Gehenna, into which the resurrected damned are cast. Limne means "lake" and is translated as such all 10 times it occurs by the KJV. Pur means "fire" and is translated so 73 times by the KJV while being translated "fiery" once.
Other key terms

tartaroo (Greek) - Refers to "Tartarus" and only occurs once in 2 Peter 2:4 where it is translated "hell" "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment ...." This is probably a separate place from Hades, and may be a place only for fallen angels. There are no Biblical references to people going there.

grave (English) - The place for the fleshly body after death, sepulcher. It is not the abode of the soul or spirit.

abussos (Greek) - Abyss. It is translated "bottomless pit" 5 times, "deep" twice, and "bottomless" twice by KJV. It is where Satan will be locked up for the 1000 years of Christ's reign on earth. This is thought by many to be the same as the impassable gulf described in Luke 16:26.

chasma (Greek) - a gaping opening, chasm, or gulf. It is translated "gulf" in its only occurrence in Luke 16:26, where it is the canyon separating the torment and comfort sides of Hades.
Abraam kolpos (Greek) - Abraham's Bosom (Luke 16:22). Abraam is translated "Abraham" all 73 times. Kolpos is translated bosom 5 times and creek once (Acts 27:39).

paradeisos - Paradise. It is translated "paradise" all 3 times by the KJV. "Paradise" is not the English translation of any other Greek word in scripture. First we hear the words of the thief and Jesus Christ on their crosses in Luke 23:42-43, "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." In 2 Corinthians 12:4, Paul tells how he was "... caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter." In Revelation 2:7, Jesus told the church of Ephesus "... To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God." The tree of life is also mentioned in Revelation 22:2, in the new heaven and new earth, where it appears to be not just one tree, but a type of tree of which there are more than one. Since the three references show paradise to be in different places, then either paradise has been relocated once and will yet be relocated again, or it is a general term.

Summary

Sheol (Hebrew) and Hades (Greek) are the temporary place of torment for the souls of the wicked dead. Prior to Christ's resurrection, saints were kept and comforted in the now vacant half of Hades, known as Abraham's Bosom. Gehenna (Greek, but from a Hebrew name) is the Lake of Fire for the permanent place of torment of the souls of the wicked dead in their resurrected bodies. Hell is a rather general and inadequate term that is often used to refer to either Gehenna or the torment side of Hades, both by those who know the basic difference between these two specific places and by those who do not.

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Christian2
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

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Different_Name wrote:Then wouldn't abortion be doing the aborted fetuses a great favor by giving them a free ticket to heaven without them having the chance to deny Jesus?
Thy shall not kill.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

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Christian2 wrote:
Different_Name wrote:Then wouldn't abortion be doing the aborted fetuses a great favor by giving them a free ticket to heaven without them having the chance to deny Jesus?
Thy shall not kill.
This answers the question in regards to the killer. The question is about the baby/fetus.

I'll give the answer everyone is too scared to give.

Yes. The answer is yes, the murderer is essentially "doing the fetus a favor".

However we are not told to be 100% sure that this happens. While the scriptures speaks of child innocense, it also speaks that NOT ONE IS INNOCENT...not even from conception. Adding to this that the scripture and Christ Himself, claims only one gate/path to heaven, that being Christ also throws doubt in the mix.

It is best to leave the Judgement to the Judge and trust He is Just. We shouldn't presume what's not clearly explained to us.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by cslewislover »

I would add that we can't create members of heaven by our own will. To make babies, and then kill them with the belief that they'll be in heaven, is putting creation and populating heaven in our hands. This just does not seem biblical; and, of course, to murder is against God's will. How can we do something so clearly against God's will (murder), and still say that we are in God's will (helping people into heaven)? It is very contradictory, taking away from God's authority, and it just makes me question the motives of any person considering this in any serious fashion. In other words, they want to act against God, not for him. If you agree with God that murder is wrong (taking away the person's gift of life), but do it anyway, you are disagreeing with God . . . so why would you want your baby to be with Him? It's all contradictory.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by B. W. »

BavarianWheels wrote:
Byblos wrote:Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?
Doesn't sound like you're even convinced. There are several people mentioned prior to Christ's resurrection that were "with the Lord". This then make your statement a bit off as heaven is possible prior to the resurrection. I'll simply stand with Christ's words. "Lazarus is sleeping...Lazarus is dead...Let us go to him..." Why not make a better point that we need not fear death since we go to "Abraham's bosom" and are safe there. Was Lazarus the only person brought back from death? If not, then the point had already been made or was made elsewhere.
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Matthew 17:3, 4, "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."NKJV

Hmmm, Moses and Elijah were not soul sleeping were they?
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by sinnerbybirth »

Since the beginning of time, any country who kill their children (born or unborn) have been destroyed.

One question about abortion I have is, what about birth control (oral contraceptives)? It prevents uterine implantation if fertilization should occur. :shakehead:

Just a couple of scriptures I enjoy when children are involved.

Psalm 139: 13-14

Matthew 19: 13-15

Proverbs 17:15

GOD BLESS!!
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by BavarianWheels »

B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Byblos wrote:Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?
Doesn't sound like you're even convinced. There are several people mentioned prior to Christ's resurrection that were "with the Lord". This then make your statement a bit off as heaven is possible prior to the resurrection. I'll simply stand with Christ's words. "Lazarus is sleeping...Lazarus is dead...Let us go to him..." Why not make a better point that we need not fear death since we go to "Abraham's bosom" and are safe there. Was Lazarus the only person brought back from death? If not, then the point had already been made or was made elsewhere.
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Matthew 17:3, 4, "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."NKJV

Hmmm, Moses and Elijah were not soul sleeping were they?
Of course not. Knowing your OT would answer this for you plainly.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by B. W. »

BavarianWheels wrote:
B. W. wrote:
BavarianWheels wrote:
Byblos wrote:Lazarus was not in heaven since heaven was only made possible after the resurrection. He was most likely in Shoel, in what is known as Abraham's bosom. And Jesus had to physically go to where Lazarus' body is to prove that physical resurrection is possible, otherwise what would have been the point?
Doesn't sound like you're even convinced. There are several people mentioned prior to Christ's resurrection that were "with the Lord". This then make your statement a bit off as heaven is possible prior to the resurrection. I'll simply stand with Christ's words. "Lazarus is sleeping...Lazarus is dead...Let us go to him..." Why not make a better point that we need not fear death since we go to "Abraham's bosom" and are safe there. Was Lazarus the only person brought back from death? If not, then the point had already been made or was made elsewhere.
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Matthew 17:3, 4, "And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4 Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."NKJV

Hmmm, Moses and Elijah were not soul sleeping were they?
Of course not. Knowing your OT would answer this for you plainly.
I rest my case...

For the principles mentioned in Deuteronomy 10:17 and Gal 2:6 to be absolutely true, then how could God show partiality (favoritism) for only two to avoid soul sleep but the rest must soul sleep?

Next, if some are allowed to live and others must be annihilated into non-being then that too would make God demonstrate partiality - favoring one with life by denying life to another. Such is the absolute justice of God that can clearly demonstrate no partiality...
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by BavarianWheels »

B. W. wrote:I rest my case...

For the principles mentioned in Deuteronomy 10:17 and Gal 2:6 to be absolutely true, then how could God show partiality (favoritism) for only two to avoid soul sleep but the rest must soul sleep?

Next, if some are allowed to live and others must be annihilated into non-being then that too would make God demonstrate partiality - favoring one with life by denying life to another. Such is the absolute justice of God that can clearly demonstrate no partiality...
You have a problem with God showing partiality/favoritism? Really? How then do you reconcile God not moving EVERY heart towards Him? If He "can", why wouldn't He do so? I am totally comfortable with God showing favoritism to those that put their faith in Him. He calls Himself a jealous God.

Did Jesus show partiality for Lazarus in only raising him up? Why didn't Jesus raise the millions in their graves to make the point? Was it because He was good friends with the family? Hmm. What had they done to gain His favor?
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by Kristoffer »

I do not see why they wouldn't What sin can a baby possibly do? Is a babby guilty of the sins of its parents? Original sin is immoral it presumes that you are guilty of something that you had nothing to do with. As a story genesis does make a good point in that if you put any man in the position of Adam, any man would make mistakes. Even Jesus Seems to make some "mistakes", but remember mistakes can be good too its all part of being human.
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by cslewislover »

Kristoffer wrote:I do not see why they wouldn't What sin can a baby possibly do? Is a babby guilty of the sins of its parents? Original sin is immoral it presumes that you are guilty of something that you had nothing to do with. As a story genesis does make a good point in that if you put any man in the position of Adam, any man would make mistakes. Even Jesus Seems to make some "mistakes", but remember mistakes can be good too its all part of being human.
Kristoffer, yes, we all make mistakes, but mistakes may not be sin (hopefully, if it's an honest mistake, it won't be sin at all). Christ was without sin (He is God, and God can't sin), and I wonder what mistakes (in your view) he made?? Anyway, here are two links, one from here and one from elsewhere, that talk about original sin/our sin. The second one gives a summary of the three basic theological positions. No matter which position it is, the bible says we all sin. And God can't be in contact with sin . . . so we need Jesus' work to remove our sin so that we can be with God.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... l-sin.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/original-sin.html
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Re: If babies automatically go to heaven...

Post by Kristoffer »

Well, why does God need a horse? (Jesus' Desciples Steal a Colt--"the lord needs it!" So that makes it ok? :lol: )

Everlasting fire...Gnashing of teeth; When talking about such things its probably best to be straight and to the point instead of using vaguaries, but if metaphor is what the people of that time understood then that is what he would of used.

ALMOST not honouring his Mother, see the bit about the wedding that Jesus Is at were he supposedly turns water to wine, his attitude towards his mother seems a bit cold if truth be told.

PS. here are two links is not a good response, I already said that I would rather have your opinion's and not someone else's apologetic rationalizations. If you need me to elaborate on why it isn't then I can privately. I will how ever look at Rich's page.
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