The Universe Couldn't Come From Nothing

[truthman]

2. we could describe the infinite regression as a set: {1st cause, 2nd cause, 3rd cause, ....}

To begin an infinite regression sequence we need to start with the latest cause, and regress: {latest cause, the next to latest cause, the cause before that, … etc.}. We could “never” reach a first cause. [/quote]

Thanks for the correction: I had 1st cause and last cause turned around in my mind because the last cause is the first one we address.

This idea fits with Option A. Also, this option may be the preferable choice for Christians. Christians have a name for the infinite something that was always here “without” a first cause.

My point exactly. We are led to the conclusion that rather than an infinite regression, we must start with an infinite "something" with no beginning and no end which I am calling infinity. When we define that infinite "something" by the real characteristics we can observe, one of which is personality, we can conclude that the infinite "something" is a person: the infinite God.

Option B, if there was a beginning then questions about “before” the beginning make no sense. Still, we are compelled to ask; if existence itself had a beginning then what was its cause? (From where did it come?)
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I disagree. We ask questions and give answers all of the time about what happened before the beginning of something.
It makes no sense to ask, "what happened before infinity?" or "where did infinity come from?"

[RickD]

If this long article is saying what Genesis 1:1 states, then I agree. I have a question that anyone can answer. In Genesis 1:1, Is the text talking about the heavens as in the universe, or heavens as in the Earth's atmosphere. I know heavens can be translated either way. If we are to read the text from the surface of the Earth as our perspective, then Genesis 1:1 may just be about the creation of the Earth.

[coldblood]

rather than an infinite regression, we must start with an infinite "something" with no beginning

“No beginning” IS infinite regression. But do not be thrown off by non-traditional terminology. It is meant to be neither hostile nor misrepresentative. In Christian terms all it translates into is that God's existence extends infinitely far into the past; or, that God has always been around. I think most Christians believe this.

Just as a circle or a Möbius strip has no beginning and no end, time itself may be a closed loop. And I am not saying that these are representative models. I am only trying to say that it may not be fair of us, you or me, to impose our notions of time upon conditions that existed before the birth of our universe.

Also, you can “start” with infinity, but you cannot go to the start of infinity. Just for you in God terms, you can never go back to God's beginning; you cannot go back to the halfway point of his existence; you cannot go back 1% of his existence. In fact, even if you went back a billion, billion, billion years, you would not be one iota closer than you are now. That is what infinite means.

we define that infinite "something" by the real characteristics we can observe,

Of course, we all define our world through our observations; but be wary of that guy playing a shell game down on the corner of the block. What you “think” you see is not always what you get.




A. Something has always existed,
B. Or, there was a beginning to existence,
C. Or, there is an alternative to A & B


Option B, if there was a beginning then questions about “before” the beginning make no sense. Still, we are compelled to ask; if existence itself had a beginning then what was its cause? (From where did it come?)

I disagree. We ask questions and give answers all of the time about what happened before the beginning of something.

Sure, we ask about beginnings of things in general all the time. However, if you will read again you will see that Option B specifically refers to the beginning of "existence." Also, my comment is in the form of a supposition. Note the word “if” near the start of the sentence.


To quote you:

I think it would be best to be sure we are using the same definitions and following each others line of thinking . . . Of course, it requires much more thorough delineation of thought.

It makes no sense to ask, "what happened before infinity?" or "where did infinity come from?"

You seem to be confused regarding the meanings of finite and infinite. This question was specifically about the finite. It hypothesizes a beginning.

*IF* there was a beginning, then the past is finite. Time itself would have had a beginning. What happened “before time” would have no meaning if there were no such thing as time. “Before an event” presupposes time. What happened before time is meaningless.

Also, I offered an observation, perhaps too subtly for you to notice, that in spite of our paradoxical reasoning we humans will still ask the questions.

~ ~ ~

If it helps you any, Option B seems the hardest for me to accept. I am sympathetic to the title of your thread. Then again, you have no idea how many times my sympathies have led me astray.
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[truthman]

Just as a circle or a Möbius strip has no beginning and no end, time itself may be a closed loop. And I am not saying that these are representative models. I am only trying to say that it may not be fair of us, you or me, to impose our notions of time upon conditions that existed before the birth of our universe.

Eternity is timeless. Time began "in the beginning". Time as a 4th dimension in the space-time continuum began at the beginning. I have things to say about time, but that is another topic.

Also, you can “start” with infinity, but you cannot go to the start of infinity. Just for you in God terms, you can never go back to God's beginning; you cannot go back to the halfway point of his existence; you cannot go back 1% of his existence. In fact, even if you went back a billion, billion, billion years, you would not be one iota closer than you are now. That is what infinite means.

No problem. I understand and say the same thing.

A. Something has always existed,
B. Or, there was a beginning to existence,
C. Or, there is an alternative to A & B

Option B, if there was a beginning then questions about “before” the beginning make no sense. Still, we are compelled to ask; if existence itself had a beginning then what was its cause? (From where did it come?)[/color]

I disagree. We ask questions and give answers all of the time about what happened before the beginning of something.

Sure, we ask about beginnings of things in general all the time. However, if you will read again you will see that Option B specifically refers to the beginning of "existence." Also, my comment is in the form of a supposition. Note the word “if” near the start of the sentence.
You seem to be confused regarding the meanings of finite and infinite. This question was specifically about the finite. It hypothesizes a beginning.

I missed the precise wording of a) and b). Sorry: my bad . I would say:
a: something has always existed
b: or, everything came from nothing.

your b: there was a beginning to existence was not clear to me because I took it to mean: "there was a beginning to existence of the universe"

Also, I offered an observation, perhaps too subtly for you to notice, that in spite of our paradoxical reasoning we humans will still ask the questions.~ ~ ~
If it helps you any, Option B seems the hardest for me to accept. I am sympathetic to the title of your thread. Then again, you have no idea how many times my sympathies have led me astray.
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Ahh....you are just too subtle my friend.