Evidence for God from Science

sinner..
You were not born guilty of sin because you hadn't done anything wrong. But I'm sure it wasn't too long before you managed to choose sin.

BavarianWheels wrote:

Gman wrote:Being gay is a sin.. No doubt about it.

Having been conceived is sin.
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I forgot.. There are no rules under SDA theology..

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:

Gman wrote:Being gay is a sin.. No doubt about it.

Having been conceived is sin.
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I forgot.. There are no rules under SDA theology..

I see the wink, however I don't get it.
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BavarianWheels wrote:
I see the wink, however I don't get it.
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You claim that people are genetically gay.. Therefore the Bible is wrong in telling that people should abstain from sexual sins.. And sinning most definitely includes homosexual sin. You don't think so? So how could someone abstain from a genetic sin? Do you mock God??

In my perspective we are born with the sinful nature a.k.a we cannot help it sometimes but yes we can abstain from it.

Definitely a sin…And yes we all sin but……

The homosexual sin is being accepted as a lifestyle choice or a third gender, one that acts in a manner that should be received as normal due to the belief that they are born that way and can not help it, such as someone who is born with down's syndrome or another disability. In fact, many rebuke those who speak against homosexuals in the same way they would rebuke someone who talked down to a handicap person. Are we really going to accept (as a country) that out of all the disabilities in the world, homosexuality just happens to be the only disability that's a sin? It can't be a birth defect, that would suggest that sin is not a choice but something that can be forced on you. The whole idea of free will would go right out the window. And non-believers would have all the proof they need to discredit the bible.

It's a sin and people are becoming seriously numb to that fact. As cslewislover said ,we are not under the old law anymore, so of coarse no Christian should even consider stoning them. And yes, God loves gay people to no end just the same as he loves us all. But there is a HUGE difference between having sin in your country and intentionally legalizing gay marriage or legally accepting homosexuality as a third gender or lifestyle choice. We might as well legalize all the sins. God is serious when it comes to intentions. Sin should always be the result of weakness or a mistake. Never a premeditated, intentionally executed choice. The more we intentionally legalize sin the further this country/world (I live in America ) will fall into chaos. I do not want my (future) kids learning that homosexuality is natural and acceptable when they go to school. I do not want to fight lawsuits because a gay person believes I am being prejudice by not allowing him or her to minister to the congregation (I am a music minister). Yes, everyone in a church is a sinner but that is not the same as someone who willingly practices sin. And all this stuff is already happening and accelerating.

Christians really need to wakeup…none of us should be ok with legalizing gay marriage or legally accepting homosexuality as a third gender or lifestyle choice, or legalizing any sin. Don't just go with the flow here…I am telling you that legalizing these things will change this country/world for the worse. Many Christians are already afraid to speak up about it and soon you will not be able to speak against it unless you want to pay a fine or go to jail. There is this enormous LIE covering my country, that homosexuality is a civil rights movement, no different than what blacks and women had to go through. And gay rights are being legalized in more and more states here. Soon laws will be made to prevent what is perceived as any kind of prejudice activity against them. This post could even be seen as a hate message….And soon Christians will have to go through great difficulties (such as jail) to even attempt to save a gay person from going to hell. And we still have to try, God said he hates cowards. So we can't be afraid to speak against it now or in a future where laws may land us in jail. This is a sin…nothing more and nothing less.

Nice post there J.Davis.. I agree.

CeT-To wrote:In my perspective we are born with the sinful nature a.k.a we cannot help it sometimes but yes we can abstain from it.

It's the same thing as saying "the devil made me do it" or "my genetics made me do it" which is a lie. We are wired for sex, which is NOT a sin, however any sex outside a man and woman marriage is considered a sin. Period. It's a moral problem and where they are channeling their lusts.. Someone could also say my genetics make me a car stealer since my daddy stole cars too... So now people have a car stealing gene? That will fly over well in a court of law..

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:
I see the wink, however I don't get it.
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You claim that people are genetically gay.. Therefore the Bible is wrong in telling that people should abstain from sexual sins.. And sinning most definitely includes homosexual sin. You don't think so? So how could someone abstain from a genetic sin? Do you mock God??

My "claim" is simply that I acknowledge the possibility of sin corrupting, not only our minds, but also our bodies...physically, including genetics. It's no different an idea than the scriptures claim about their being a sinful nature that no one is exempt from having this side of salvation.

Gman wrote:So how could someone abstain from a genetic sin? Do you mock God??

The better question is; How does humanity, with a sinful nature from conception, find God and please Him? If you answer this question, which I'm sure you know the answer to, then you have the answer for your question regarding homosexuality.

No where did I claim homosexuality is normal and should be accepted, however it is ONE sin among many and SIN isn't only on the side of the homosexual.
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J.Davis wrote:Definitely a sin…And yes we all sin but……

The homosexual sin is being accepted as a lifestyle choice or a third gender, one that acts in a manner that should be received as normal due to the belief that they are born that way and can not help it, such as someone who is born with down's syndrome or another disability. In fact, many rebuke those who speak against homosexuals in the same way they would rebuke someone who talked down to a handicap person. Are we really going to accept (as a country) that out of all the disabilities in the world, homosexuality just happens to be the only disability that's a sin? It can't be a birth defect, that would suggest that sin is not a choice but something that can be forced on you. The whole idea of free will would go right out the window. And non-believers would have all the proof they need to discredit the bible.

It's a sin and people are becoming seriously numb to that fact. As cslewislover said ,we are not under the old law anymore, so of coarse no Christian should even consider stoning them. And yes, God loves gay people to no end just the same as he loves us all. But there is a HUGE difference between having sin in your country and intentionally legalizing gay marriage or legally accepting homosexuality as a third gender or lifestyle choice. We might as well legalize all the sins. God is serious when it comes to intentions. Sin should always be the result of weakness or a mistake. Never a premeditated, intentionally executed choice. The more we intentionally legalize sin the further this country/world (I live in America ) will fall into chaos. I do not want my (future) kids learning that homosexuality is natural and acceptable when they go to school. I do not want to fight lawsuits because a gay person believes I am being prejudice by not allowing him or her to minister to the congregation (I am a music minister). Yes, everyone in a church is a sinner but that is not the same as someone who willingly practices sin. And all this stuff is already happening and accelerating.

Christians really need to wakeup…none of us should be ok with legalizing gay marriage or legally accepting homosexuality as a third gender or lifestyle choice, or legalizing any sin. Don't just go with the flow here…I am telling you that legalizing these things will change this country/world for the worse. Many Christians are already afraid to speak up about it and soon you will not be able to speak against it unless you want to pay a fine or go to jail. There is this enormous LIE covering my country, that homosexuality is a civil rights movement, no different than what blacks and women had to go through. And gay rights are being legalized in more and more states here. Soon laws will be made to prevent what is perceived as any kind of prejudice activity against them. This post could even be seen as a hate message….And soon Christians will have to go through great difficulties (such as jail) to even attempt to save a gay person from going to hell. And we still have to try, God said he hates cowards. So we can't be afraid to speak against it now or in a future where laws may land us in jail. This is a sin…nothing more and nothing less.

To a VERY small degree I agree, however to me this sounds more like a person that wants, no, EXPECTS, the State to educate their child and if something is a sin, there should be a civil law against it.

J.Davis wrote:Are we really going to accept (as a country) that out of all the disabilities in the world, homosexuality just happens to be the only disability that's a sin?

Where is it stated anywhere that BEING a homosexual is a sin?? Is it not the ACT of homosexuality that is a sin? How is the sexual desire of a homosexual more sinful that the sexual desires of a heterosexual? They are equally sinful.

J.Davis wrote:It can't be a birth defect, that would suggest that sin is not a choice but something that can be forced on you. The whole idea of free will would go right out the window. And non-believers would have all the proof they need to discredit the bible.

Really? It can't be a birth defect? How then is it that you're not writing this about the sinful nature? Psalm 51:5 and Romans 7:18,19 ...

J.Davis wrote:Sin should always be the result of weakness or a mistake. Never a premeditated, intentionally executed choice.

Are you telling me you've never stopped before "sinning" and known what you were about to do yet did it anyway? Please...then Paul is a liar. Romans 7:18

J.Davis wrote:I do not want my (future) kids learning that homosexuality is natural and acceptable when they go to school.

Have you heard of private schools? Many people make the financial sacrifice. If you don't, then it is up to you as a PARENT to teach your child. If you're going to educate your child in the world, don't be upset when they learn worldly things. Are you upset they are being taught Darwinian Evolution?

J.Davis wrote:Christians really need to wakeup…none of us should be ok with legalizing gay marriage or legally accepting homosexuality as a third gender or lifestyle choice, or legalizing any sin.

Are you ok with taking the Name of God in vain? Are you ok with the dishonor of parents? Are you ok with worshipping another God besides the Christian God? Are you ok with Buddhist idols in America? Are you ok with adultery? Are you ok with people wanting the stuff their neighbor has? It's interesting to me because with the possible exception of adultery, all these sins are legal and you're not forming any protests about these??

J.Davis wrote:This is a sin…nothing more and nothing less.

Who's arguing that homosexual acts are not a sin? The argument I'm making is that it's no more sinful to BE homosexual than it is to BE heterosexual.

Homosexuals are wanting CIVIL rights, not SPIRITUAL salvation from their acts. When the argument becomes; "God loves the homosexuals AND CONDONES HOMOSEXUAL ACTS!"--this is when I will change my stance on the matter. Why is it so difficult to understand this?

For now, I support them in wanting CIVIL equality in marriage.
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BavarianWheels wrote: My "claim" is simply that I acknowledge the possibility of sin corrupting, not only our minds, but also our bodies...physically, including genetics. It's no different an idea than the scriptures claim about their being a sinful nature that no one is exempt from having this side of salvation.

No.. Your claim is "they cannot help what sin has made them." Therefore they cannot move from their sins because they are genetically spot-welded to their sins.. That, is a bunch of garbage. A false hope... So how do you fight against a genetic disposition? Inject them with heterosexual genetics?

And there is no evidence of a gay gene either..
http://www.godandscience.org/evolution/ ... ality.html

BavarianWheels wrote:The better question is; How does humanity, with a sinful nature from conception, find God and please Him? If you answer this question, which I'm sure you know the answer to, then you have the answer for your question regarding homosexuality.

No where did I claim homosexuality is normal and should be accepted, however it is ONE sin among many and SIN isn't only on the side of the homosexual.
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How do you please God? The Bible tells us that we please God by obeying his commandments.. 1 John 3:21-22. But in your case they can't. It's genetics.. How is someone going to fight against genetics?

Hi BavarianWheels!

BavarianWheels wrote:To a VERY small degree I agree, however to me this sounds more like a person that wants, no, EXPECTS, the State to educate their child and if something is a sin, there should be a civil law against it.

I think you may have misunderstood me…

I am saying that I do not want the state forcing me or my kids to accept a sin at all, not that I want them to educate my kids or make a law against it, just don't make one permitting it. The state school system has no right to teach my kids that homosexuality is an acceptable way for people to live, no more than I want them teaching that prostitution is acceptable. And the state has no right to tell me that I am being prejudice by not allowing a gay Christian to take part in ministering to the congregation etc.

Already, there is a considerable amount of risk for a pastor to teach against homosexuality, I don't even remember the last time I heard it spoke of on TV. Should we have sympathy for their flesh and disregard their spirit?

BavarianWheels wrote:Where is it stated anywhere that BEING a homosexual is a sin?? Is it not the ACT of homosexuality that is a sin? How is the sexual desire of a homosexual more sinful that the sexual desires of a heterosexual? They are equally sinful.

As you have described, the bible says it is both the action carried out in the heart or/and with the body. However, being homosexual (they say in their heart, I am gay) suggesting that they have given into their desires. Otherwise, they would never say they're gay, just men or women fighting sin as we all do. So by their own admission, the action has been performed and they are sin. Guys can have a lot of natural (man type) love for their brothers or male friends but have no desire AT ALL to label themselves gay. They would not need to be more than friends if they did not desire to be more than friends. Remember, we are talking about unnatural affection here, not love. Men can be in love with a girl and want her in every way but not sin. But a persons need to want more than natural love towards the same sex makes them gay.

BavarianWheels wrote:Really? It can't be a birth defect? How then is it that you're not writing this about the sinful nature?

Yes, we are born into sin and sometimes/often (depends on where you are at in your walk with God) we are weak. But that is not the same as claiming that we are forced to sin, as in the way homosexuals say that being gay is who they are (third gender) and should be accepted by all, encouraged, glorified on TV and respected? Should pedophiles have their own organization to fight for their rights to be with children. Should they say being pedo is just what I am, I was born this way? Won't pedophiles say they love this child and should have the right to be with him or her? Homosexuals used to be ashamed to publicly acknowledge their sin as pedophiles are today? When do we decide that (perverted) love is not a good enough excuse to let people corrupt this world?

BavarianWheels wrote:Are you telling me you've never stopped before "sinning" and known what you were about to do yet did it anyway? Please...then Paul is a liar.

Yes, as the result of a weakness and I constantly improve and get stronger as I'm sure Paul did. But neither Paul or I would say that I am not sinning if God said what we did was a sin. Nor would we try to get the whole world to acknowledge that our sin is morally correct and fight for laws to protect our beliefs and force our sin on others.

BavarianWheels wrote:Have you heard of private schools? Many people make the financial sacrifice. If you don't, then it is up to you as a PARENT to teach your child. If you're going to educate your child in the world, don't be upset when they learn worldly things. Are you upset they are being taught Darwinian Evolution?

Yes, but I think it's better to actually prevent the problem instead of trying to spackle over it when it's out of control. We can not afford to have a, it's going to happen so lets just work around it attitude. Before you know it (and we are close) good Christian moral values will be non existent out side our house and walls of the church. No Christian should be ok with their country legalizing sin. I will teach my kids well and do the best I can to give them great things in life. But they will still live a large part of their life outside my house. We can not just let the world fall deeper and deeper into an immoral pit. Also, I am not God. I believe most humans categorize sin, some being greater than others. We all sin everyday but are often unaware of it. Most of us only acknowledge what we perceive as major sins.

There is a big difference between my child learning about Darwin's theory of evolution and learning that homosexuality is an acceptable way of life. And it is not going to be just schools. It will be all over the place almost like it is now. Like I said…Christians are becoming way to numb to the fact that it's a sin. And that is because the idea that it is acceptable is being pushed by TV, movies, magazines, the internet, stores, churches, schools, the president, radio etc. The next step is to have legal power and protection from what is perceived as prejudice acts. And then the church will have no end of trouble trying to save them, it's difficult enough now. And it could also interfere with our right to do what is biblically right.

BavarianWheels wrote:Are you ok with taking the Name of God in vain? Are you ok with the dishonor of parents? Are you ok with worshipping another God besides the Christian God? Are you ok with Buddhist idols in America? Are you ok with adultery? Are you ok with people wanting the stuff their neighbor has? It's interesting to me because with the possible exception of adultery, all these sins are legal and you're not forming any protests about these??

That stuff happens but…(as I stated in my first post) none of those are forced on me by law. You can do all those things but I don't have to accept any of it. But the state will say I have to accept gay marriage. Or it will say that I can not show any kind of prejudice behavior toward what the bible clearly says is a sin. I can rebuke the rest of that stuff and most people will accept that it's a sin. I assure you, soon rebuking homosexuality will be equivalent to rebuking an ethnic group. You will face penalty doing it in church, on TV Radio etc.

BavarianWheels wrote:Who's arguing that homosexual acts are not a sin? The argument I'm making is that it's no more sinful to BE homosexual than it is to BE heterosexual.

Homosexuals are wanting CIVIL rights, not SPIRITUAL salvation from their acts.

For now, I support them in wanting CIVIL equality in marriage.

Being heterosexual is not a sin at all…you can sin but it's not a sin. As I said, there would be no need to be homosexual if they just had a lot of natural love for the same sex. But they say they are sin, desiring more than natural affection. Yes, they want civil rights but when do we draw the line? Adults marrying children or animals? Is it not all unnatural affection? When do we stand for God instead of feeling compassion for ones weakness? Telling them that they are wrong and leading them to God is true support.

I think you have big heart BavarianWheels and you like to stand up for people. But there is no way you as a Christian should support gay activity or any sin. We all sin but that is not the same as supporting it. You should be on Gods side concerning this…

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote: My "claim" is simply that I acknowledge the possibility of sin corrupting, not only our minds, but also our bodies...physically, including genetics. It's no different an idea than the scriptures claim about their being a sinful nature that no one is exempt from having this side of salvation.

No.. Your claim is "they cannot help what sin has made them." Therefore they cannot move from their sins because they are genetically spot-welded to their sins.. That, is a bunch of garbage. A false hope... So how do you fight against a genetic disposition? Inject them with heterosexual genetics?

Can you, Gman, help what sin has made you? You are the special one that sin hasn't corrupted in any manner?

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not saying homosexuals should be exempt from "their sin" because of genetics. What I am saying is that homosexuality could be genetic and similar to a heterosexual and his/her perverted sexual desires does not make BEING a homosexual any more of a sin. Do you get the difference between BEING a homosexual and ACTING out homosexuality? We are all SINNERS and sinful from the moment we are born. It isn't fair we have sin in us and can justly be obliterated by God having sin already. I think homosexuality is a similar struggle through sin. Their sin of homosexual acts is no more a sin than me when I take God's name in vain every single day! Which is worse? I don't condone homosexual acts as acceptable. Homosexual acts are a sin. Full Stop. BEING homosexual isn't more sinful than BEING heterosexual. Both are already IN SIN and in need of a Savior.

Gman wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:The better question is; How does humanity, with a sinful nature from conception, find God and please Him? If you answer this question, which I'm sure you know the answer to, then you have the answer for your question regarding homosexuality.

No where did I claim homosexuality is normal and should be accepted, however it is ONE sin among many and SIN isn't only on the side of the homosexual.

How do you please God? The Bible tells us that we please God by obeying his commandments.. 1 John 3:21-22. But in your case they can't. It's genetics.. How is someone going to fight against genetics?

It's interesting you'd point to the commandments as pleasing God. -moment to chuckle to self-[/chuckle] I couldn't help but notice that homosexuality is not mentioned in the commandments. There is no word in God's word the BEING homosexual is more sinful than BEING heterosexual. The only word is about homosexual ACTS.

You didn't understand the point of the above statement. (probably my inability to convey my thinking) How is it that a sinful being, sinful from conception, finds a Righteous God? Does this sinful, "more perfect" Being find God easier because it is heterosexual? Can a homosexual not find God? If a homosexual finds God and jumps the same hoops into Christianity, (if you will) is their struggle all for naught because they are homosexual? Hetero Christians can struggle with sexual perversion, but homosexuals cannot have sexual struggles because homosexual struggles/sin is "SO" sinful that one cannot be saved having that struggle?

J.Davis wrote:Hi BavarianWheels!

BavarianWheels wrote:To a VERY small degree I agree, however to me this sounds more like a person that wants, no, EXPECTS, the State to educate their child and if something is a sin, there should be a civil law against it.

I think you may have misunderstood me…

I am saying that I do not want the state forcing me or my kids to accept a sin at all, not that I want them to educate my kids or make a law against it, just don't make one permitting it.

Whose job is it to teach YOUR children what is right and what is wrong? Who is ultimately responsible for the plight of your child? Will God look at the State and blame it (solely) for your child believing that homosexual behavior is ok? Why do you NEED a law prohibiting homosexual unions? It sounds like you think that a State law of the sort would keep your child "safe" from homosexuality. It seems silly to think so because that would in turn make the Almighty God's word only worth something if the State backs Him up...?? Because there is no law enforcing the honor of mother and father. Are you aware of this danger to your child?

J.Davis wrote:The state school system has no right to teach my kids that homosexuality is an acceptable way for people to live, no more than I want them teaching that prostitution is acceptable. And the state has no right to tell me that I am being prejudice by not allowing a gay Christian to take part in ministering to the congregation etc.

Which school would do that? Prostitution is legal in Nevada...are the schools in Nevada teaching the children it's ok to be a prostitute? Are you not being prejudice in not allowing a gay Christian to minister to the congregation? The fact of the matter is that by definition, you ARE being prejudice whether the State allows you to or not. Who's to say that this gay Christian isn't a "better" Christian than you are? Who's to say he/she is a practicing homosexual or one that must struggle through his/her sin, yet God gets them through? Are you saying that heterosexual desires of perversion are less sinful than those of a homosexual nature?

J.Davis wrote:Already, there is a considerable amount of risk for a pastor to teach against homosexuality, I don't even remember the last time I heard it spoke of on TV. Should we have sympathy for their flesh and disregard their spirit?

The only pastors that feel a "risk" in teaching truth are pastors that have one foot in being a pastor and the other foot in being a politician. Otherwise there is no "risk".

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Where is it stated anywhere that BEING a homosexual is a sin?? Is it not the ACT of homosexuality that is a sin? How is the sexual desire of a homosexual more sinful that the sexual desires of a heterosexual? They are equally sinful.

Men can be in love with a girl and want her in every way but not sin. But a persons need to want more than natural love towards the same sex makes them gay.

What?! You mean I can desire a girl in all ways sexually and that is not a sin? I hope you don't mean what I think you mean.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Really? It can't be a birth defect? How then is it that you're not writing this about the sinful nature?

Yes, we are born into sin and sometimes/often (depends on where you are at in your walk with God) we are weak. But that is not the same as claiming that we are forced to sin,

You were forcibly born into sin. You had no choice in the matter. The moment you were conceived is the moment you were in need of a Savior.

J.Davis wrote:as in the way homosexuals say that being gay is who they are (third gender) and should be accepted by all, encouraged, glorified on TV and respected?

The problem here is that you and others seem to think my support for homosexual unions is to say that I think homosexuality is ok. I, like you, know homosexuality is wrong...the acts within homosexuality.

J.Davis wrote:Should pedophiles have their own organization to fight for their rights to be with children. Should they say being pedo is just what I am, I was born this way? Won't pedophiles say they love this child and should have the right to be with him or her? Homosexuals used to be ashamed to publicly acknowledge their sin as pedophiles are today? When do we decide that (perverted) love is not a good enough excuse to let people corrupt this world?

You need to go back and read why I stand where I stand on gay marriage. There's another thread of this type somewhere. In a nutshell, there is no law in our secular society against BEING homosexual. Until society deems BEING homosexual is unlawful, then it is my opinion that society should allow for homosexual unions in which homosexual couples are afforded the same rights and perks given to heterosexual marriages. The homosexual community probably doesn't care whether it is called a "marriage" or a "union", but wants equality. I say homosexuality exists. It is not remotely similar to pedophilia. As a society we have made pedophilia illegal (the acts of pedo's) and thus a pedo cannot demand his/her right to practice pedophilia. It's not, take notice, illegal to BE a pedo. It's illegal to act out pedophilic actions. THIS STANCE IN NO MANNER SUGGESTS THAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE ACCEPTABLE TO GOD SINCE THEY MAY BE GENETIC. Homosexual acts are sinful and detestable to God. No argument there.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Are you telling me you've never stopped before "sinning" and known what you were about to do yet did it anyway? Please...then Paul is a liar.

Yes, as the result of a weakness and I constantly improve and get stronger as I'm sure Paul did. But neither Paul or I would say that I am not sinning if God said what we did was a sin. Nor would we try to get the whole world to acknowledge that our sin is morally correct and fight for laws to protect our beliefs and force our sin on others.

How is it that legalization of homosexual unions would "force" sin on you and or your children? I don't promote homosexuality as morally correct at all. Sin is genetic. Does the legalization of alcohol, tobacco, fire arms, force alcoholism on you or your child? Does it force murder? Does it force lung, lip, throat or any tobacco related cancer on you or your child? Do you have a problem with a teacher that smokes teaching your child? Do you have a problem with a teacher that owns a gun teaching your child? What about a teacher that takes God's name in vain? What if one of your child's teachers is a Buddhist and has an idol of Budda in their home and they pray to it daily? Is that a threat to your child? These last two scenarios are clearly against God's law...why are you not persuing to make these acts illegal too?

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Have you heard of private schools? Many people make the financial sacrifice. If you don't, then it is up to you as a PARENT to teach your child. If you're going to educate your child in the world, don't be upset when they learn worldly things. Are you upset they are being taught Darwinian Evolution?

Yes, but I think it's better to actually prevent the problem instead of trying to spackle over it when it's out of control. We can not afford to have a, it's going to happen so lets just work around it attitude. Before you know it (and we are close) good Christian moral values will be non existent out side our house and walls of the church. No Christian should be ok with their country legalizing sin. I will teach my kids well and do the best I can to give them great things in life. But they will still live a large part of their life outside my house. We can not just let the world fall deeper and deeper into an immoral pit. Also, I am not God. I believe most humans categorize sin, some being greater than others. We all sin everyday but are often unaware of it. Most of us only acknowledge what we perceive as major sins.

Sounds like you already have the "it's going to happen..." attitude if you're not chasing to make everything God says is wrong illegal in our society. Good Christian moral values? Which utopia are you living in? Where and when has there ever been a society with "good Christian moral values" this side of Eden? Do you trust God? If so, you do your job in training a child and let God do His in keeping His children. Proverbs 22:6.

J.Davis wrote:There is a big difference between my child learning about Darwin's theory of evolution and learning that homosexuality is an acceptable way of life. And it is not going to be just schools. It will be all over the place almost like it is now. Like I said…Christians are becoming way to numb to the fact that it's a sin. And that is because the idea that it is acceptable is being pushed by TV, movies, magazines, the internet, stores, churches, schools, the president, radio etc. The next step is to have legal power and protection from what is perceived as prejudice acts. And then the church will have no end of trouble trying to save them, it's difficult enough now. And it could also interfere with our right to do what is biblically right.

Maybe you should let the H.S. do the work He is sent to do. Our job is not to enforce or make laws that enforce God's law(s). Our job is to preach and teach the Good News.

To be frank, I fear more the teaching of Darwinian Evolution to my children than the legalization of gay unions. I believe one can BE gay and still get to heaven, however one cannot be Atheist and get to heaven.

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Are you ok with taking the Name of God in vain? Are you ok with the dishonor of parents? Are you ok with worshipping another God besides the Christian God? Are you ok with Buddhist idols in America? Are you ok with adultery? Are you ok with people wanting the stuff their neighbor has? It's interesting to me because with the possible exception of adultery, all these sins are legal and you're not forming any protests about these??

That stuff happens but…(as I stated in my first post) none of those are forced on me by law. You can do all those things but I don't have to accept any of it. But the state will say I have to accept gay marriage. Or it will say that I can not show any kind of prejudice behavior toward what the bible clearly says is a sin. I can rebuke the rest of that stuff and most people will accept that it's a sin. I assure you, soon rebuking homosexuality will be equivalent to rebuking an ethnic group. You will face penalty doing it in church, on TV Radio etc.

Again I ask you; How is this going to affect YOU? Are you afraid of somehow jumping on the gay wagon? You don't have to "accept" gay unions anymore than being forced to accept the taking of God's name in vain all around you! How will this hurt you or your family? Does taking the name of God in vain, being "forced" to accept it since there is no civil law against it, force you into accepting it as morally correct?

J.Davis wrote:

BavarianWheels wrote:Who's arguing that homosexual acts are not a sin? The argument I'm making is that it's no more sinful to BE homosexual than it is to BE heterosexual.

Homosexuals are wanting CIVIL rights, not SPIRITUAL salvation from their acts.

For now, I support them in wanting CIVIL equality in marriage.

Being heterosexual is not a sin at all…you can sin but it's not a sin.

Nor is there any word of God that says BEING homosexual is a sin. It's the ACTS WITHIN HOMOSEXUALITY that are a sin and detestable to God.

J.Davis wrote:As I said, there would be no need to be homosexual if they just had a lot of natural love for the same sex. But they say they are sin, desiring more than natural affection. Yes, they want civil rights but when do we draw the line? Adults marrying children or animals? Is it not all unnatural affection? When do we stand for God instead of feeling compassion for ones weakness? Telling them that they are wrong and leading them to God is true support.

I see no problem with teaching a homosexual that his/her lifestyle in the eyes of God is sinful and detestable. What I see wrong is that a society that will not make homosexuality illegal, says homosexual unions should be illegal.

J.Davis wrote:I think you have big heart BavarianWheels and you like to stand up for people. But there is no way you as a Christian should support gay activity or any sin. We all sin but that is not the same as supporting it. You should be on Gods side concerning this…

I don't stand up for people. I stand up for what is right. As a Christian, I know what is right and wrong from a Biblical stand point. However this nation is not a theocracy and does not make laws according to religion...YET. So far it is not illegal to be homosexual. As a Christian I don't support "gay activity" or any sin. As a citizen of a republic that does not promote the Christian God above other gods and in fact is doing everything possible to remove God from it, there is no standing on homosexuality without God. All is permissable if we are truely a secular society. All is permissible if all this happened as a result of a cosmic burp. If so, then homosexuality and it's acts cannot be wrong until this secular society makes homosexuality illegal. THEN, AND ONLY THEN, is it correct to stamp out homosexual unions or marriages of the sort.
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All is permissable if we are truely a secular society

Except murder, rape, pillaging, manslaughter, mercilissly killing animals for fur/leather, hacking /causing damage with computers, terrorism, genocide, purgury,slander, libel Oh and just about every crime that exists upto and including vandalism.

A truly secular society DOES administer justice. do you know what a truly secular society is like? Do you live in one? I DO. so i am qualified to say that on the whole our justice system does a good job at being a non-corrupt institution of justice.

Thats more than can be said for american democracy! Lots of americans would NOT vote for a politician who was honest about their athiesm, but what you would rather have...a honest athiest or a Dishonest one, because i can be sure that quite a lot of the athiest's in america are "in the closet" just like gays and if you mistreat people they will rise up and come out you might even find it almost impossible to elect people because it turns out all your leaders were all athiests all along

Just realise that people in government in democratic countries NEED to gather votes, if there is a religion in that country some of these people WILL pay lip service just to obtain votes. So if there is a honest athiest, consider voting for that person. Rather than supporting oppression!

Anyway...Apart from that I do not really know what the democratic environment of america is like, or how much corruption there is, it just seems that belief has a great effect on it, but the truth is that it is probably just politicians doing what they do, "lying Congressional style"

Kristoffer, In an truly secular society, how do you judge the superiority of a morality? What makes cheating wrong? Let the buyer beware because there are cheats and swindlers and if you aren't smart enough to see through their claims then too bad.

In a truly secular society the majority win and get to supplant their morality of the minority and who's to say otherwise?