Evidence for God from Science

Kristoffer, there is a difference between beauty and purity. Mozart has amazing abilities but he was simply human. There is nothing to say that simply because he wrote amazingly beautiful music that he was any more pure than anyone else.

Please read what I have posted in the purpose of prayer about total depravity. Being born a sinner doesn't mean that you can't create or sculpt but it does mean that a person is born with a heart turned against God.

Mozart was a devout Catholic, by the way, so while he was creating those beautiful pieces of music, he was worshiping God.

SBB, your question is a difficult one, since no one seems to know how to explain it. Since all humans are sinners, as you point out with verses, it seems like a moot point to wonder if babies are born sinners or not. It brings into play the age of accountability issue, too, which I've wondered about . . . but that is a bit of another subject, though related.

I've been reading CS Lewis more lately, looking into various things, so I got his book The Problem of Pain out, which has a chapter on "The Fall of Man." In this he provides a scenario for the development and fall of man; he doesn't say he knows the answers, but he imagines a logical sequence that he believes answers to our present physical and spiritual condition. First off, let me quote him on the fall:

"This sin has been described by Saint Augustine as the result of Pride, of the movement whereby a creature (that is, an essentially dependent being whose principle of existence lies not in itself but in another) tries to set up on its own, to exist for itself. Such a sin requires no complex social conditions, no extended experience, no great intellectual development. From the moment a creature becomes aware of God as God and of itself as self, the terrible alternative of choosing God or self for the centre is opened to it. This sin is committed daily by young children and ignorant peasants as well as by sophisticated persons, by solitaries no less than by those who live in society: it is the fall in every individual life, and in each day of each individual life, the basic sin behind all particular sins: at this very moment you and I are either committing it, or about to commit it, or repenting it." (p 75)

Lewis goes on to describe how he thought humans were different before the fall - how their spirit was above the physical and how they were therefore capable of controlling their physical nature. They had this power from God, and through God, since God was their source of being. Once this power was removed because of their rebellion, it changed us in both a physical and spiritual way. This is conjecture and seems far-out, but once you think about it, there are reasons why Lewis comes up with what he does. Anyway, he writes, "This [new] condition was transmitted by heredity to all later generations, for it was not simply what biologists call an acquired variation; it was the emergence of a new kind of man--a new species, never made by God, had sinned itself into existence. The change which man had undergone was not parallel to the development of a new organ or a new habit; it was a radical alteration of his constitution, a disturbance of the relation between his component parts, and an internal perversion of one of them." (p 84) Something to ponder, anyway, huh?

If you haven't seen this yet, you might want to read it. It's short, too Did we all inherit sin from Adam and Eve?

Kristoffer wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ2rSyPckTU

How's that not good enough for god? Mozart composed it at the young age of 17!

I don't know what you're getting at here, but did you see the movie Amadeus? It's a really great movie, and it's about a person not accepting what gifts God gives to people - of being covetous. Mozart was gifted by God, and Mozart's enemy was just too jealous.

Sinnerbybirth wrote:2. Children are born with a sin nature.

I believe this to be true, that we are born with sin nature, however it is not exercised until the time where you become aware of good and evil and make the choice of the later rather than the former. The reason I say this is because children are innocent, they do not understand wrong from right. Before I go on, I would like to make a few references from the Bible.

Matthew 18:2-3 (King James Version)
"2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14 (King James Version)
"14But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Deuteronomy 1:39 (King James Version)
"39Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."

From this we can see what the truth is. I think Deuteronomy says it the best, "Which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil". This is speaking of babies, or children of a very young age who do not yet have the knowledge of good and evil and cannot discern what is right and wrong. So to begin with they do not know that they can even commit a sin. With that being said, because they cannot tell the difference in good and evil, they cannot know why Christ died of the cross for their sins. They cannot decide on weather or not they would accept Christ as their Lord and Savior, they cannot reject Him and His work on the Cross, nor can they accept what He has done for them. So if children cannot decide on weather or not they want to follow Christ and accept His gift of Salvation, then one can conclude that they cannot decide to sin either, because they do not know better.

When Jesus said in Matthew 18:2-3 that we should be like little children, He meant that we should return to such an innocence as they have. Now obviously we cannot be innocent again in the sense of not knowing wrong from right and being unable to understand what Christ has done for us and being able to accept it or reject it, but we can become children of God and be born again, sinless and new. Washed clean by the Blood of Jesus and lead by His love and Righteousness.

I believe that we are all born with the sin nature, and that we will all sin. However like I said above, I believe that children are innocent. There is an article on the main site as well that you can read:
What happens to Infants and Children Who Die? Do Babies Go To Heaven?
It's an okay article, lol.

We are born with sin nature, and we are sinners by birthright.

oh and CSLL posted something I see! Very nice, and Lewis makes a good point that when the time comes for us (what ever that may be for the individual) we will make that decision between God and ourselves. Not before then have we sinned, only after.

The Answer is pretty straight forward from Scripture.

1. God's definition of sin.

1 John 3:4 ¶ Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

2.Next, are babies under law? Is there any way to communicate law to them and for them to understand it and then choose to break it?

Romans 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

3.Then, Paul said he was alive without law at one time. When? It had to have been when he was a baby.

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

4. Then he said that there was a point in time when he received commandment and that it was then that the sin nature in him came to life and he died (spiritually as the consequence of sin).

I know many teach that babies are born guilty of sin, but it doesn't stand up to a thorough study of Scripture. Actually I believe it is a harmful teaching.
The truth is that babies are innocent. How can anyone say they are born guilty sinners?

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Look at this verse carefully. It is not saying that conception is a sin, but that his mother was a sinner when he was conceived which is true for all of us.
It is saying that we are all shaped or formed in iniquity or sin because our parents that we were formed from were sinners. We are formed with a sin nature, but that does not mean that we are guilty of sin until we actually choose to sin.

Some people even go so far as to say babies are liars because they cry when they're not hungry or wet. That is ignorance on the parents part. Babies also need love and sometimes their cry is just their way of saying that they need to be held close and loved. That is not a lie.

Gabrielman wrote: I believe that we are all born with the sin nature, and that we will all sin. However like I said above, I believe that children are innocent. There is an article on the main site as well that you can read:
What happens to Infants and Children Who Die? Do Babies Go To Heaven?
It's an okay article, lol.

We are born with sin nature, and we are sinners by birthright.

oh and CSLL posted something I see! Very nice, and Lewis makes a good point that when the time comes for us (what ever that may be for the individual) we will make that decision between God and ourselves. Not before then have we sinned, only after.

Thanks Nathaniel, for your post, your reference to the main site, and your praise. It does seem to be so - as you have said. That is, that we are born with the sin nature from Adam (there's a verse, I think in Romans, that refers to our inheritance). Children can only be accountable for accepting Christ's work or not, as we all are accountable, but only God knows when a person has the capacity for realizing what that decision means. I like that Lewis included children in his description above. I'm sure Lewis thinks God reasonable, however, and would not think God would condemn an innocent minded child! My son is 12 and seems to know what all this is about, and he seems to have known for some time.

I recently read the story of deborah and barak, i find it kind of disputable how these people thought that all humans were currupt including themselves..."oh but we have the escape route", screw that...ASK for WHAT you DESERVE, do not ASK for escape routes. Either you believe you are totally Corrupt and worthless and ASK FOR WHAT YOU DESERVE. Or you believe that humans have something, atleast just SOMETHING pure about them. I think that we have a pure heart(emotions), we know what is right and wrong intuitively it is not something we need a book for it is just in our nature and if we act on that we can do some wonderful things and make some great masterpieces.

I am full without doubt that if the christian faith died in its early years when it only had a "cult" status, then the great composers would still of had inspiration, just instead of hearing Beethoven 5th "fate" we would be hearing "Pre-Destination" and instead of hearing the symphony called "Creation" we would have "the expanding universe", but just because they took their inspiration from religion that does not mean a secular person can enjoy it...In fact i heard pretty recently that Dorkins likes these classical pieces of music and I am sure that is something you can have in common with him right?

I find this illustration helpful to understanding sin and its spread.

There are two camps: God's and Satan's. When Adam and Eve fell they were taken captive into Satan's camp and became slaves to sin. Their offspring are therefore born into this camp as slaves to sin. We are all born slaves to sin. However, Christ came and set us free so we could willingly choose to return to God's camp.

So while we are born into sin, sin has no hold on us for Christ paid the price.

Wow, this is more than I expected. I'm trying to find truth in this issue. I have really never given it much thought. I always figured that when Christ died on the cross, he also died for those who are unable to make the decision of accepting him i.e. babies, mentally challenged, and yes, those who have never had the chance to hear about him, sort of. I think Christ did more on the cross that I can ever imagine. I would like to thank all of you for your replies. I have to admit, while I like a good debate, It is also very awesome when the body comes together to help a believer/non-believer find answers. This has truly given me something to ponder.

May GOD Bless all of you!!

Kristoffer wrote:I recently read the story of deborah and barak, i find it kind of disputable how these people thought that all humans were currupt including themselves..."oh but we have the escape route", screw that...ASK for WHAT you DESERVE, do not ASK for escape routes. Either you believe you are totally Corrupt and worthless and ASK FOR WHAT YOU DESERVE. Or you believe that humans have something, atleast just SOMETHING pure about them. I think that we have a pure heart(emotions), we know what is right and wrong intuitively it is not something we need a book for it is just in our nature and if we act on that we can do some wonderful things and make some great masterpieces.

I am full without doubt that if the christian faith died in its early years when it only had a "cult" status, then the great composers would still of had inspiration, just instead of hearing Beethoven 5th "fate" we would be hearing "Pre-Destination" and instead of hearing the symphony called "Creation" we would have "the expanding universe", but just because they took their inspiration from religion that does not mean a secular person can enjoy it...In fact i heard pretty recently that Dorkins likes these classical pieces of music and I am sure that is something you can have in common with him right?

Yes, let me just look through Itunes for all of that beautiful atheist music....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jD7GAAdSxiQ for a funny bit on this...

I can think of plenty of examples that show art reflecting the depravity of mankind...I disagree, unfortunately sin has corrupted the creative process.

Kristoffer wrote:I recently read the story of deborah and barak, i find it kind of disputable how these people thought that all humans were currupt including themselves..."oh but we have the escape route", screw that...ASK for WHAT you DESERVE, do not ASK for escape routes. Either you believe you are totally Corrupt and worthless and ASK FOR WHAT YOU DESERVE. Or you believe that humans have something, atleast just SOMETHING pure about them. I think that we have a pure heart(emotions), we know what is right and wrong intuitively it is not something we need a book for it is just in our nature and if we act on that we can do some wonderful things and make some great masterpieces.

None of us wish for or ask for what we deserve. The wages of sin is death. We ask for mercy. God is very merciful and because Christ paid for our sins God is able to show us mercy. He is also gracious and gives us the undeserved free gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ. Wow! What a wonderful God we have!

Kristoffer wrote:I recently read the story of deborah and barak, i find it kind of disputable how these people thought that all humans were currupt including themselves..."oh but we have the escape route", screw that...ASK for WHAT you DESERVE, do not ASK for escape routes. Either you believe you are totally Corrupt and worthless and ASK FOR WHAT YOU DESERVE. Or you believe that humans have something, atleast just SOMETHING pure about them. I think that we have a pure heart(emotions), we know what is right and wrong intuitively it is not something we need a book for it is just in our nature and if we act on that we can do some wonderful things and make some great masterpieces.

I am full without doubt that if the christian faith died in its early years when it only had a "cult" status, then the great composers would still of had inspiration, just instead of hearing Beethoven 5th "fate" we would be hearing "Pre-Destination" and instead of hearing the symphony called "Creation" we would have "the expanding universe", but just because they took their inspiration from religion that does not mean a secular person can enjoy it...In fact i heard pretty recently that Dorkins likes these classical pieces of music and I am sure that is something you can have in common with him right?

I don't believe humans are totally depraved. There is still good in us that God created, and humans still have a moral ground.

As for composers or any other artists, why do you deny that God can work through them?? Of course He does. Tolkien believed God worked through him in his writings (The Lord of the Rings), for instance. "Inspired" comes from that - that God helped someone with a work. Just because God worked through someone on something, doesn't mean that another talented person couldn't make something beautiful as well. It's just different. I think truly inspired works are going to be recognized by believers, myself. Very many believe Bruce Cockburn's Dancing in the Dragon's Jaws was inspired, as do I.

sinnerbybirth wrote:Wow, this is more than I expected. I'm trying to find truth in this issue. I have really never given it much thought. I always figured that when Christ died on the cross, he also died for those who are unable to make the decision of accepting him i.e. babies, mentally challenged, and yes, those who have never had the chance to hear about him, sort of. I think Christ did more on the cross that I can ever imagine. I would like to thank all of you for your replies. I have to admit, while I like a good debate, It is also very awesome when the body comes together to help a believer/non-believer find answers. This has truly given me something to ponder.

May GOD Bless all of you!!

God bless you too! But Christ does call those who have never heard the gospel from a missionary, say. God knows people's hearts and He calls those who are his, no matter where they are.

cslewislover wrote:God knows people's hearts and He calls those who are his, no matter where they are.

CS, you hit the nail right on the head. This is more like what I ment by, "sort of"

The reason I say this is because children are innocent, they do not understand wrong from right. Before I go on, I would like to make a few references from the Bible.

When you say children can you be more specific. I have worked in children's ministry for 10 years. Although depending on age a child's moral compass may not be fully aware, they certainly know right from wrong. I've seen even very young childnen knowingly use deception to get their way. And knowingly use affection to please their parent.

I don't believe humans are totally depraved.

CSLL,
Even the concept of TD has different meanings in Arminianism vs. Calvanism. TD has a different meaning to each. Still, overwhelmingly, TD is the doctrinal position held by Christianity in some form or fasion.
The bible says that even our righteous deeds are filthy rags. Or as Christ said, there is no one good but God.

I have seen some interesting research that reveals that even babies as young as a year can reveal an understanding of deception and lying.

Certainly their sense of "depravity" is as undeveloped as their intelligence. A child of 4 who hides a piece of candy when his/her mom tells him no would certainly not have the same awareness of his sin as a child of 7 or 10. But that doesn't negate of heart that's turned away from God. The videos I have linked to show classic psychology experiment called the marshmallow experiment. They are very very cute and funny but it's interesting to see the differences between the young children and the older children. There is an obvious awareness of the temptation and in the second link with an older boy there is a clear sense to deceive in order to get the second marshmallow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amsqeYOk ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgCL3Gnm ... re=related

I don't pretend to know the answer to what happens when babies die. BUt any parent or anyone who has been with two toddlers know that they understand when they hit, they hurt. And they show a clear desire sometimes to hurt the other child (if their toy was taken...).