Churches

[Canuckster1127]

I've chimed in on other threads in the past so I won't beat the dead horse here so much.

For what it's worth though, as someone who spent 20 years in institutional, congregations serving as an assistant pastor of a Church of about 150, a pastor of a small struggling redevelopment church of about 50 (at it's height), a district worker in a district of about 90 churches, an elder in several churches, a board chairman in a church of about 400 that went throught a split, a church administrator in a church of about 1,600 and currently attending but not a formal member of a growing mega-church in our area (I make no bones about the fact that I attend to support my wife and family who don't share my views on what I'm about to say) and someone who has done a Biblical Lit degree and Seminary Work and formal ordination in an evangelical denomination, I think that the system is broken and most christians and local congregations don't operate in anything like the organic manner that the early Church modeled or on the manner that Jesus and the apostles taught within Scripture. Further, I'm convinced that the traditions and hierarchical functions of what is called "church" in our culture in the western has for the most part replaced the organic functioning of Christ as the head and the Holy Spirit as the indwelling power of God.

I don't say that genuine church can't exist and function in these forms. For the most part however, what I observe is weak, anemic and generally seeking to use human psychology, human forms of organizational dynamics (I have done Master's work in this area so I'm not just spouting an uninformed opinion in that regard) and frankly most organizational churches that I've observed, been a part of and yes, even led (so I'm pointing the finger at me and my roles too) if you moved the Holy Spirit out of them entirely, wouldn't skip a beat and would continue to function for the most part as if nothing had happened.

I'm convinced that for me in any measure that the true nature of the church is organic and that the answer is to examine everything from the most basic elements of what we take for granted within our churches (hierarchy, the role of the senior pastor today which is a role that has no biblical support and model etc.) and be willing to go where that examination takes us and most importantly to return Christ to the actual, rather than just the symbolic head of the Church.

Other than that, I think everything is just great ......

[zoegirl]

Bart, I'm beginning to understand what you have been saying. I wish the current churches work and perhaps they did before we became so obsessed with the different ministries.

A hundred years ago there wasn't this idea of "programs". People came, listened, worshiped, sang together, and the church also served social functions with shared luncheons (everybody brought something to share). It was far simpler. We didn't bother with "Teams" or "groups". And there wasn't this idea of teenage angst or middle school programs.

But then again we also had stricter ideas of etiquette. At sit-down dinners, there were formal rules to follow who you spoke to during each course and you switched to the other person when courses were changed. Great care was taken to even out numbers.

I don't know....goodness knows I don't seem to have any idea of how to get out of this rut. I wouldn't mind being tagged but for me, my job *is* my ministry. I give so much during the week that there are some church ministries I just know I couldn't do. Tell me to clean something, take out the trash, or mow the lawn and I will happily do it. Tell me that they need someone for nursery or children's church and I just can't...it's too much when added to the week.

[jlay]

I hope I haven't given the impression that serving is merely joining a church and 'doing stuff.'
I also hope I haven't given the impression that ministry is only some church office.

I've heard the advice to serve, serve, serve....and you know, I have no problem with that.

I'd say we all need to hear, hear, hear. We need to be tender to His calling and direction. That may be through service in the congregational church. It might be in our own home. It might be ministering to the needs of someone in our family, work place. Ministry isn't a vocation, but it may lead to a 'full-time' role. And it may not. One of my favorite preachers says, "you not a teacher. You are a minister who teaches. You aren't a lawyer. Your a minster who practices law. Etc." You get the picture.

This was one of those churches that decided to stop their singles ministry....oh and the kicker???!?? They let it die a slow death after "appointing" elder after elder who had no heart for it (after the associate pastor decided against running it to go to the high school ministry)...but oh this is so good, wait for it....when all of those families who had teens grew up, went ot college...suddenly those parents realized their little ones had nothing to come home to after graduating. So I'm sitting in the pew and hearing them say "Oh we've decided to make a college and career ministry for those in the twenties!!! Isnt' that great folks?"

Man, can I relate to that one. That is a tough demographic for all churches. Maybe that's your calling. You obviously see a neglect. The need is the call.

Add to that none of them came to the hospital when I was admiited for five days for my colitis. None....a fellow single did, the visitation minister came, but none of those families came. Oh yeah, and while I recovered over the next several months at home and went to a mcuh closer church (more for convenience at that point)...I received a lovely letter from them...not asking how I was doing mind you, but reminding me that I was a member and I hadn't been coming and reminding me of my ":duty" to financially support them and go to church. To give the pastor credit he was furoius that i received the letter but unfortuanetly he was forced out. So much for relationships.

There is a couple of ways to address the things you mention. One, this may be a clear warning to go another way. I can't speak of the lack of visitation when you were sick, because I don't know what you mean when you say, "none of them." Are you saying none of them in regards to the church as a whole, or specific people in the church you knew?

I can give you a lot of examples very different from what you mention, particularly with people being sick, in need, etc. Although I'm sure we have let people fall through the cracks over the years. Sadly.

Obviously Zoe, you've got some of that good ole church baggage. That doesn't make it easy. But maybe it is time to pursue a different strategy. Do you have Bible Study Fellowship (BSF) in your area?

[mandelduke]

Zoe,

This is a good topic. A lot of different ways I see that it could go. I've got a lot of thoughts, and I hope my post is not off the direction you were looking for.
I'd even say expand it to simply, "the church," not just congregational. My most intimate Christian friendships are in my men's group, which is mulit-denominational. Most of the minstries I serve in are para church. (that is not affiliated with a denomination or congregation.) But, I don't think you have to be lifelong buddies with someone to find out their Christian walk. In fact, I can testify of countless times where my paths cross with believers, and I can tell you their spiritual temp within 30 minutes, and they mine. I am utterly amazed at how God crosses my path with other Christians. And usually within moments we have both registered that spiritual connection, and we are sharing with one another. And this isn't even in the church building, but my daily life. It wasn't always this way.

Even with families, if you don't fit the pattern card of respectability or are struggling, there is little encouragement to be vulnerable and often there is pressure to hide the anxieties.

Then I'd find a different congregation, or abandon the congregational model if need be. My experience is churches are going to the other extreme to make people feel welcome, find their spiritual calling, etc. I can't even begin to tell you all the things I see congregations in my area doing to try and help people find their God given destiny, plug into ministry, etc. And quite frankly the response is meager at best. I think a lot of it is the message. The message I hear a lot, is 'what can the church do for you.' This is a 'me; centered message. It's hard to get fruit producers, if this is the drawing card. Not that we shouldn't be able to meet the needs of people. We should. But if you have 20% of the people doing the ministry, and 80% staying needy, idle, and not moving foward into their calling, then you will see frustration and stagnation. And thus we are warned in the scriptures on what to do, and what not to do.

And to even go further, I'd say that you do not have to be a congregational Christian to be 'plugged in.' One of my dearest friends is not a 'church goer.' But, he is one of the most vigilant prayer warriors I've ever met. We fellowship every Monday night, and he sits on the Board of Directors of a not for profit ministry. He has those deep intimate friendships. And you could never question his spiritual course or activity. So, if you took any of my replies on the other thread as meaning you HAVE to be a member of a congregation, sing in the choir, clean the baptismal, be able to give detailed descriptions of every church member, etc., then you missed my point entirely.

The church as I see it is a sending place. A place to plant yourself in good soil, where you can be edified, with the purpose of producing in the harvest field.
People are all too careless when choosing where and why they will fellowship. A person needs to ask some questions about the church, and also about themselves. Things didn't change for me until I moved from a place of being served to a place of serving. When this happened, my cup overflowed. That's when I moved from milk to meat. God doesn't call the equipped, He equips the called. And sense we are all called, He will be faithful to equip.
I certainly can understand why someone could go for year or 10 years and not know. Because I was one for much of my life. And I can assure you, in my case (not speaking for anyone else) it was a poor reflection on me.

Works are the blessing that every believer should experience. If not, they are missing out, and not being faithful to the promises of God. If they are missing out because the church is a callous, introverted, closed minded bunch, then shame on the church. If they are missing out because of their own grieving of the spirit, disobedience, apathy, or general lack of faith response, then shame on them.

I remember a quote by GK Chesterson, that made me think of this question. It is easy to play a blame game of all that is wrong with the congregational church today. But, I wonder if we surveyed all Christians with this question:
What is wrong with the church today? How man would answer, "I am."

“Wow” I just wish I could find a church were I would like to know 10 people.

[zoegirl]

yeah...sometimes I feel that way...then I know I need to go back and see people as God sees them....