Question about salvation assurance...

[RickD]

After seeing the video myself, this doesn't sound like orthodox Christianity in the traditional sense, it may be more like Orthodox Church of America or OCA to be exact. I don't see a lot of indication in the Bible talking about Mary being the Holy Mother of God. Also the video seems to indicate that you have to put forth effort or works in order to obtain and maintain salvation. Is this what the OCA teaches? It also sounds similar to Roman Catholicism.

Yes, derrick09. It does seem very similar to the Roman Catholicism that I'm familiar with.

All Christians believe Jesus is the Incarnate God. Since this is so, the Virgin Mary should be called the Mother of God. She did not give birth to God in eternity past, but she did give birth to Him in this world. She is the way the Incarnate God came into the world. For God to truly take on our human flesh, He had to be born of a woman.

This is what bothers me about Roman Catholicism. I do believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. But, I don't think Mary should be called "the Mother of God". Again, I see it as more than semantics. Roman Catholics place Mary in a place that only God should be. And it seems this Orthodox Christian sect may be doing the same. I don't see this Orthodox Christian group as being any different than any other "Christian" group that claims to be Christian, but needs works for salvation. Ask any one who belongs to Roman Catholicism, Jehovah's witnesses, etc. if they have assurance of their salvation, and they all have the same answer. THEY ARE NOT SURE OF THEIR SALVATION. They feel like they have to do this, or that to have a CHANCE to make it to heaven. When you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you will be assured of your salvation. Because:Philippians 1:6 says that God is the one doing the work through us by the power of the Holy Spirit that God has given to us as a deposit guaranteeing what is to come.2 Corinthians 1:21-22 and 2 Corinthians 5:5 and Ephesians 1:13-14.

[JamesScott]

RickD,

Yes, derrick09. It does seem very similar to the Roman Catholicism that I'm familiar with.

Well, we used to be One Church, but Rome broke away from the Orthodox Church in the year 1054 A.D
Some things in Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism are similar, but we are not the same Faith. Many things Roman Catholicism teaches, we completely reject.

This is what bothers me about Roman Catholicism. I do believe that Jesus is God in the flesh. But, I don't think Mary should be called "the Mother of God". Again, I see it as more than semantics.

If Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, why should she not be called the Mother of God? We are not saying she is above God or equal to God in any way; and we are certainly not saying she gave birth to Him in eternity. The title "Mother of God," is a testimony to Who Jesus is.

Roman Catholics place Mary in a place that only God should be. And it seems this Orthodox Christian sect may be doing the same.

As I said, Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are not the same Faith, and there are differences, even in our beliefs about Mary.
However, would you please tell me what you mean when you said "Roman Catholics place Mary in a place that only God should be"?

[jlay]

James,
I really don't want to come across as dogmatic or condescending. I appreaciate your feedback. But I do not appreciate (agree) your position. How would YOU interpret these verses.

1 John 5:1
John 1:12
John 3:16
John 5:24
Eph 2:8-9
1 John 5:13
Col 1:14
2 Cor 5:21
Romans 8:1-2

Please interpret them in the context.

However, I may leave the Christian Faith a year from now.
If you say "I know I'm saved" today, but leave the Faith a year from now, I guess you were wrong

This has nothing to do with what you or I think about a person's salvation. Maybe this has to do with how we are using the word, "know." I'll address that in a moment.
No person is qualified to do anything other than believe what our Lord has spoken. If Jesus Himself, and the one He appointed as our apostle says, you can know salvation, shouldn't we trust Him? Do you understand the concept of being sealed until the day of redemption? Eph 1:13-14

Just to make it clear. I understand what you are saying about today versus tomorrow. I disagree with this, and specifically in regards to what we are speaking of. That is really a discussion of apostasy, and even a discussion of what constitutes right belief. We've had discussions asking, "can someone who came to true saving faith then apostasize." That might be a side issue to this topic, but it doesn't change what the bible says in regards to salvation. The question is what does the bible teach you, today. Can you know, today, that you are saved?

Now, about knowing. Many times this 'knowing' we speak of comes across as boasting. Nothing makes me more sickened than those who take this doctrine and distort for their own agenda. I've heard many a preacher bragadociously chanting, "I know, that I know, that I know." This is not to claim that we have something of our own doing, and be puffed up about it. This is a position of trust. "I trust Lord, that in Christ, You have saved me and that I am reconciled to you. I have believed His message. That there is forgiveness through the work of the cross. And eternal life for those who will receieve and trust IN Him. And that receiving Him I am no longer lost, a sinner. But, I am a child of God."

You see James, it seems to me that you refuse to embrace your new state, if you truly believe His Word. Saved v. Sinner. This is a positional question. (2 Cor 5:17) Are you "In Christ," or are you lost in sin? You still see yourself as a sinner. You identify your position with what you do, as opposed to what Christ has done. And in essence you are saying, you are a slave to your sin. Your sin is what identifies you. You refuse to fully accept the identity that God has given you. (John 1:12) Because you sin (and we all do) you see this as still having power over your eternal position. (2 Cor 5:19) You are discounting the power and the work of Christ. That it is sufficient to make you right. Completely right. This is why Paul says, God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Cor 5:21) Now if you think you can make yourself righteouss then you discount that God has done it completely through Christ. Sanctification is not the process of making yourself saved. It is the process of realizing that you are saved and appropriating it in all areas of you being. I have no doubt that you still sin. The question is are you a slave to it? if your identity rest on what you do, then where are you saying your faith rests? Is your faith in your ability to stop sinning? Is your faith in your ability to keep on keeping on? Or, is it solely on the person, the work, and message of Christ Jesus? One is security and peace. The other............

[If Jesus is God, and Mary is His Mother, why should she not be called the Mother of God? We are not saying she is above God or equal to God in any way; and we are certainly not saying she gave birth to Him in eternity. The title "Mother of God," is a testimony to Who Jesus is.

Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. John 3:6
From where does Jesus spirtual position come? Blessed is Mary because she was favored to give birth. But her contribution, part and position was only in the physical.

[JamesScott]

RickD,

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
St. Matthew 5:16

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
Philippians 2:12-13

You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
St. James 2:24


These are only a few examples from Scripture that we need works. We do not and cannot work our way to heaven. However, because of God's Grace, and because of what Christ did, we are to work out our faith.

We also cannot be certain of our Salvation, not because God lacks goodness, but because of our own sinfulness. We don't know if we will still be faithful to Him a year from now. For example; there are people who honestly believed they were saved, but later they became atheists. I guess they were wrong...
We must work out our faith. And by God working in us, and our cooperation with Him our whole life, one day we will be saved. But its a continuing walk. Not a 1,2,3 step you're saved process. Its a life long process.


That is not to say, however, that we cannot be confident of our Salvation. We certainly can be confident of our salvation.

[RickD]

James, Once we are saved(through faith by God's grace alone), it is God who does the works in us (evidence of fruit), by the Holy Spirit who lives in us. We aren't doing good works of and by ourselves. The good works are the evidence to others that we have God inside us.

[JamesScott]

jlay,

1 John 5:1
John 1:12
John 3:16
John 5:24
Eph 2:8-9
1 John 5:13
Col 1:14
2 Cor 5:21
Romans 8:1-2

I'm not denying the truth of Salvation. Yes, we can be made children of God and be saved from sin.
What I am saying is that we always have the free will to turn away from Christ if we so choose.
That's why I don't believe in saying "i'm saved." I'm still struggling against temptations, the passions of the flesh, etc. I am still fighting the good fight of faith. I am still being "healed." Once my fight is over, and I have been faithful, then I will be saved by the Lord's mercy.

As our Lord said, "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." St. Matthew 24:13

[JamesScott]

James, Once we are saved(through faith by God's grace alone), it is God who does the works in us (evidence of fruit), by the Holy Spirit who lives in us. We aren't doing good works of and by ourselves. The good works are the evidence to others that we have God inside us.

Yes, He works in us. And we have to cooperate with His works. We have to cooperate with Him in forcing ourselves to do good. It doesn't come easily. This cooperation with the Grace of God is how we will be saved.


By the way, where does it say in the Holy Scriptures that we are saved by God's grace alone?

[RickD]

By the way, where does it say in the Holy Scriptures that we are saved by God's grace alone?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

This is what I meant. Alone=apart from works & ourselves

[B. W.]

Here is a passage not often thought about too much:

Mat 1:21, "And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name JESUS, for He will save His people from their sins."

Who does the saving?

Next is John 10:28-30, "...And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. 30 I and My Father are one."

Whose power is greater - man's (ours) or God's?

Please read Isaiah 45:21, 22:

"Tell and bring forth your case; Yes, let them take counsel together. Who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I, the LORD? And there is no other God besides Me, A just God and a Savior; There is none besides Me. 22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other."

Isaiah 43:11, "I, even I, am the LORD, And besides Me there is no savior."

Question: In light of these bible passages if a person has to keep his or her self saved through works till the day they die, then are they not their own savior thus making void what God says about himself?

Hebrews 7:24, "But He (Jesus), because He continues forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. 25 Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

How do they come? John 3:15-16. "...that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

John 17:2, "...as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Is your faith in Christ or yourself to maintian your own salvation? If in yourself and what you do, then how does that effect Isaiah 43:11 - Isaiah 45:25?

For a better grasp of what it means to be His workmanship created for good works that we should walk in them Eph 2:10 I suggest you go to the Metro (link Below) Ministries thread on this Forum and start reading from page three first thenpage two and also pleasse read at John 17:26 as well.

http://discussions.godandscience.org/vi ... 3&start=30

Bible quotes fromm NKJV
-
-
-

[JamesScott]

By the way, where does it say in the Holy Scriptures that we are saved by God's grace alone?

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

This is what I meant. Alone=apart from works & ourselves

I agree that it is God Who saves us. I agree that without God's grace and the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we would have no hope of Salvation.
However, notice where it says we should walk in good works. This is not an option. It takes work to be a Christian. Keeping in daily prayer, wrestling against temptations and the devil, struggling to do what is right... These things are work. And its hard work. Yes, we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ, but once we are "in Christ," it takes work to stay there. Yes, God helps us, but it still takes alot of personal effort.

[RickD]

However, would you please tell me what you mean when you said "Roman Catholics place Mary in a place that only God should be"?

James here is just one example of what I mean. From Novena to St. Peregrine in another thread called "Prayer to Saints"

Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.

[JamesScott]

B.W.

Who does the saving?

God does. But we have our part to do, too. While it is by the grace of God through faith that we are saved, we still have works to do. We cannot work our way to heaven, for only Jesus can open the kingdom of heaven to us, but we cannot be saved without works. We are the servants of God. Servants work.

Whose power is greater - man's (ours) or God's?

God's power is greater. However, I alway maintain the free will to walk away if I so choose. I always maintain the free will to stop doing good if I choose.

[JamesScott]

However, would you please tell me what you mean when you said "Roman Catholics place Mary in a place that only God should be"?

James here is just one example of what I mean. From Novena to St. Peregrine in another thread called "Prayer to Saints"

Ask of God and Our Lady, the cure of the sick whom we entrust to you.

Where should God be, though? Do you mean He's the only One we should pray to?

[RickD]

I agree that it is God Who saves us. I agree that without God's grace and the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we would have no hope of Salvation.
However, notice where it says we should walk in good works. This is not an option. It takes work to be a Christian. Keeping in daily prayer, wrestling against temptations and the devil, struggling to do what is right... These things are work. And its hard work. Yes, we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ, but once we are "in Christ," it takes work to stay there. Yes, God helps us, but it still takes alot of personal effort.

I believe it does take work to stay in Christ. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit inside us, not our own work. Philippians 1:6. It is God doing the work in us that keeps us in Christ. I believe anyone who says that we must do works to obtain salvation or to keep salvation,is putting a burden on people that God has not placed upon them.

[JamesScott]

I agree that it is God Who saves us. I agree that without God's grace and the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, we would have no hope of Salvation.
However, notice where it says we should walk in good works. This is not an option. It takes work to be a Christian. Keeping in daily prayer, wrestling against temptations and the devil, struggling to do what is right... These things are work. And its hard work. Yes, we are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ, but once we are "in Christ," it takes work to stay there. Yes, God helps us, but it still takes alot of personal effort.

I believe it does take work to stay in Christ. It takes the work of the Holy Spirit inside us, not our own work. Philippians 1:6. It is God doing the work in us that keeps us in Christ. I believe anyone who says that we must do works to obtain salvation or to keep salvation,is putting a burden on people that God has not placed upon them.

Yes, it is God Who does good work in us. But He doesn't do it against our will. We must conform our will to His.