Evidence for God from Science

As can be seen above, the text is about God's knowledge displayed in the atmosphere. From this context, and the language, it should be clear that Job 37:18 is referring to spreading clouds, not a solid dome. The word shachaq is a word meaning cloud or fine powder. It is used in Job 36:28; 37:18, 21 and again in 38:37. All of these have the meaning of cloud. Even if one wanted to argue for a meaning of sky, it would be a specific kind of sky; a cloudy one.

The imagery in Job 37:17-18 is one of the storm's passing on and the heat of the sun beating down on man. Then the question is asked, "Can you spread out the clouds to block the heat of the sun?" This is a loose paraphrase, but I believe it captures the meaning. This is not about a solid dome or how bright the sky is. It is about the clouds acting as a shield to stop the sun's heat.

Job 38:37 "Who can count the clouds (shachaq) by wisdom, or tip the water jars of the heavens?"

Ooops! Now, the Bible teaches that the sky has jars in it. Oh wait, that was just another figurative reference to clouds, just as windows was.

By the way Smiley,
Leviathan refers to at least two different creatures in Scripture. Crocodiles (Job 41:1) and whales (Psalm 104:26).

Montana,

If it is the case that God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), then why hasn't God made Himself known to a point where it is obvious He is the one true God?
Of course, there will always be some who cannot accept regardless of what is shown to them or how it is done. That is not the issue. The issue is why are there so many who do not believe? The overwhelming majority of people do not believe, despite God wanting them to.

Psalm 19:1-4, 97:6; Romans 1:19-25, 2:11-15 show that everyone has the evidence needed to believe.

Sin is the BIG problem. The Jews in the Old testament saw the miracles, but still turned to other gods (Exodus 32:1, 7-8, etc). In the New Testament the same things happened. People saw the miracles and refused to believe. Jesus said that the majority would not make it to heaven (Matthew 7:13-14, Luke 13:23-27). As far as providing signs. Jesus adresses this (Matthew 12:39; Luke 16:27-31).

Gman wrote:

Montana wrote:If it is the case that God wants all to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), then why hasn't God made Himself known to a point where it is obvious He is the one true God.

Well when you boil it all down.. You will find that God (Christ) is the one true God. The problem is that man doesn't necessarily seek him. It's an issue of heart.. Jeremiah 29:13

Montana wrote:Some may say that free will must remain intact. But God, being God, can make His presence known (or at least, more obvious) while not destroying free will. He does this quite often in the OT, and Jesus and the apostles do this in the NT. Showing others that there really does exist a god, and it is the God of the Bible is not a removal or detriment to free will (as evidenced throughout the Bible).

So if God wants all to be saved, has the power to provide more compelling evidence of His existence...why doesn't He provide for people today, what (or how) He provided back then? Why is there so much widespread non-belief?

God reveals himself everyday to all people.. In nature, through words, through people.. Also you cannot use science to disprove God either if that is what you mean... It 's not possible. While there are weights of evidence, but no information is conclusive. There is no such thing as a 100 percent proof of anything when it comes to science.

Montana wrote:Of course, there will always be some who cannot accept regardless of what is shown to them or how it is done. That is not the issue. The issue is why are there so many who do not believe? The overwhelming majority of people do not believe, despite God wanting them to.

I believe it depends on the believer.. Some seek God through more factual matters.. Others through heart felt words or love.. Again, God can't force anyone to believe. He didn't make robots. His hands are tied until we untie them..

So how does one draw closer to God? Well besides accepting Him as your lord and savior, there is also prayer involved and the confessing of sin in your life.. And what is sin? Anything that isn't loving.. Pornography, lust, hatred, unable to confess your wrongs, pride, materialism, unforgiveness, bitterness, envy, etc..

In other words... That is why God is so unpopular today.. Who would ever confess that their life has sin in it?? That is why God is so unpopular...

Faith has been the foundation of salvation since the beginning of man. However God has made it known that he is the one true God, many times in the past, as well as now. In places like China, India, and in Africa there mighty revivals going on. people are being saved by the tens of thousands. In the U.S.A. were it is taboo to even use the name Jesus in schools or public places, there are still many people being saved daily. Now there are more preachers/teachers preaching the Gospel ( GOOD NEWS) then ever before.

Now for your other question. The 1st man to be put to death under the law, was put to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. Hardly seems fair, The Law of Moses were not a standard that man could keep, the
Law of Moses was to show us we needed to be redeemed from the law. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. (hebrews13;8) CHRIST REDEEMED US FROM THE CURSE OF THE LAW! (Galatians 3:10-14)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 peter3;9)
Once you have a close enough relationship with God, that you understand just how much he loves you, it ends about 99% of all questions about him. If someone tries to condemn you remind them of (Rom 3:10) “There is none righteous, no, not one”

I used to spend much time debating non believers and I searched a numnber of churches to try and find one suitable to raise my kids in that would help me to lead them in a positive path. I have found certain reasons for lacks of believers which I will mention here:

The bible is a book filled with stories (I am not saying they are fictional) which mirror regular mythology, a talking snake, a sea parting, food falling from the sky, water from a rock and a God man offering salvation among countless others. The dead were raised and seriously ill and disfigured people were healed to normal. These are amazing stories, and while they are accepted as fact because they are in the bible, many of us were taught mythology in high school, of Zeus, Hermes, and many others I cant count, yet they were all inventions of men. Hmmm, interesting.

No one can say that God came to them in a burning bush, or that uncle Dan was resurrected, nor can the people I used to know who suffered from strokes say they were healed by any minister, although the bible even claims they should have that power. No one has explained this to me. As for the holy spirit, I've already mentioned in another post that I have seen epople baptized and claiming the holy spirit, yet they were some of the worst people I ever met.

Prayer is generally unanswered, yet people still read their own aparent answers into prayer (Such as a person searching for a job for months manages to find one and thinks it is an answer to prayer) and nothing is definitive.

These things, and the contradictory views of churches who are said to be led by God crate many non believers. A few months ago I personally prayed for guidance and when two men showed up at my house I gave them a chance thinking maybe God was guiding them. I took their invitation to church with my family and for fifteen minutes we were bombarded by the pastor screaming, ranting and beating the pulpit till we could take no more. He even claimed anyone who got up for any reason was inhibiting the holy spirit and would be guilty of causing anyone they disturbed to burn in hell. madman

Hey there Daywalker1966, this is some horrifying stuff to say the least. I noticed on your profile you claim to be a Christian, I was wondering, what has kept you in the faith? You're not doubting God's existence are you?

Hello daywalker1966,

I would be curious to see the specifics of myths that parallel the Bible. Every time I've looked at someones examples it was clear that they had not read the actual mythological story. This would include Mythraism, Enuma Elish, Greek creation myths, etc. They are never anything like what is contained in the Bible.

Your focuse seems to be on the failure of people. It should be on Christ, because poeple will always fail. We can not even live up to our own expectations many times, much less other's.

By the way, I probably would have walked out of that church too.

daywalker1966 wrote:I used to spend much time debating non believers and I searched a numnber of churches to try and find one suitable to raise my kids in that would help me to lead them in a positive path. I have found certain reasons for lacks of believers which I will mention here:

The bible is a book filled with stories (I am not saying they are fictional) which mirror regular mythology, a talking snake, a sea parting, food falling from the sky, water from a rock and a God man offering salvation among countless others. The dead were raised and seriously ill and disfigured people were healed to normal. These are amazing stories, and while they are accepted as fact because they are in the bible, many of us were taught mythology in high school, of Zeus, Hermes, and many others I cant count, yet they were all inventions of men. Hmmm, interesting.

No one can say that God came to them in a burning bush, or that uncle Dan was resurrected, nor can the people I used to know who suffered from strokes say they were healed by any minister, although the bible even claims they should have that power. No one has explained this to me. As for the holy spirit, I've already mentioned in another post that I have seen epople baptized and claiming the holy spirit, yet they were some of the worst people I ever met.

Prayer is generally unanswered, yet people still read their own aparent answers into prayer (Such as a person searching for a job for months manages to find one and thinks it is an answer to prayer) and nothing is definitive.

These things, and the contradictory views of churches who are said to be led by God crate many non believers. A few months ago I personally prayed for guidance and when two men showed up at my house I gave them a chance thinking maybe God was guiding them. I took their invitation to church with my family and for fifteen minutes we were bombarded by the pastor screaming, ranting and beating the pulpit till we could take no more. He even claimed anyone who got up for any reason was inhibiting the holy spirit and would be guilty of causing anyone they disturbed to burn in hell. madman

I think, if you look closely at what you wrote - maybe a reason God withholds his hands concerning healings - who gets the glory? mostly the one collecting the money

As for prayer - would not be to hasty on judging as ineffective if not answered the next second - After all, Jesus is not a Genie despite what some modern preachers make him out to be
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Thanks for the reply, in answer to your questions, the reasons why I have not abandoned faith are a few. For one thing, if those experiences taught me nothing esle it was that humanity is flawed, that people fall for the right gimmick and no one is above error, including me. I am not of superior mentality to others meaning that because something seems logical to me and I might be sincere, I can be sincerely wrong, as others are. To be closed minded is foolish. Christianity has many adherants who fall for alsehoods and are often false themselves.....but it also has sincere believers who are very serious about doing the right thing. I am goth which makes me get a certain ammount of discrimination because people think of Goth as evil yet there are many Goth Christians. What is this but an error on their part? There is a very old man down the road who treated me well when he met me, and although he has seen me in black, in goth clothing he went to church with me, took me to lunch and has always been an example of a christian that reminds me that there are good ones.

I examined the basics, of whether or not creationcan happen without an engineer and became convinced it was far beyond impossible, totally laughable. I don't beleive I have all the answers and one day I could find I'm wrong about alot of things. I fell for one church that was a vile cult, so I leave room to learn new things. There are messages here where people state their opinions then others come in with other information.

You also make a good point about prayer. As far as I'm concerned, I just keep the door open and wait.

Unfortunately the bible is often misquoted, misrepresented and misinterpretted. That can turn people away. I've visited a vew atheist sites that I could not believe were serious. Oneof them was 50 proofs God is Imaginary. I'll keep my views to myself on that one.

Regards for now.
G

Daywalker1966,

One of my favorite Christian bands is Gothic, Savior Machine.

B. W. wrote:

daywalker1966 wrote:I used to spend much time debating non believers and I searched a numnber of churches to try and find one suitable to raise my kids in that would help me to lead them in a positive path. I have found certain reasons for lacks of believers which I will mention here:

The bible is a book filled with stories (I am not saying they are fictional) which mirror regular mythology, a talking snake, a sea parting, food falling from the sky, water from a rock and a God man offering salvation among countless others. The dead were raised and seriously ill and disfigured people were healed to normal. These are amazing stories, and while they are accepted as fact because they are in the bible, many of us were taught mythology in high school, of Zeus, Hermes, and many others I cant count, yet they were all inventions of men. Hmmm, interesting.

No one can say that God came to them in a burning bush, or that uncle Dan was resurrected, nor can the people I used to know who suffered from strokes say they were healed by any minister, although the bible even claims they should have that power. No one has explained this to me. As for the holy spirit, I've already mentioned in another post that I have seen epople baptized and claiming the holy spirit, yet they were some of the worst people I ever met.

Prayer is generally unanswered, yet people still read their own aparent answers into prayer (Such as a person searching for a job for months manages to find one and thinks it is an answer to prayer) and nothing is definitive.

These things, and the contradictory views of churches who are said to be led by God crate many non believers. A few months ago I personally prayed for guidance and when two men showed up at my house I gave them a chance thinking maybe God was guiding them. I took their invitation to church with my family and for fifteen minutes we were bombarded by the pastor screaming, ranting and beating the pulpit till we could take no more. He even claimed anyone who got up for any reason was inhibiting the holy spirit and would be guilty of causing anyone they disturbed to burn in hell. madman

I think, if you look closely at what you wrote - maybe a reason God withholds his hands concerning healings - who gets the glory? mostly the one collecting the money

As for prayer - would not be to hasty on judging as ineffective if not answered the next second - After all, Jesus is not a Genie despite what some modern preachers make him out to be
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1.There are people being healed, and raised from the dead all the time. 2. I have had more prayers answered then I can count. 3. Being filled with the Holy Spirit does not make you a better person. The Holy Spirit is to help you with your walk with God. 4. It is a shame that the Gospel has been perverted, just like Paul warned the Galatians, false doctrine is a big problem with non believers. I think you have a lot of bitterness, I will be praying for you my brother.

As for mythology and the bible, I used to study mythology in school. and the strories of men and womenfrom the sky such as Zeus, Atlas, and a host of others, all have the same characteristics. These are beings who have supernatural powers and perform supernatural acts, and they have sons and daughters like they are. They were worshipped by ancient civilizations who laid down their lives for them as do Christians. Someone replied that there have been dead people resurrected in modern times. This would be a big surprise to me, not that I would swear it wasn't true, I have never heard of one instance.

The bible is the same as the other books in that respect, supernatural forces, beings and situations. Yet none of those sorts of things has taken place in more recent times. I am told that belief is based on faith. All well and good but every religion out there has faith and has followers who swear to it's authenticity. For me, sadly those who have claimed to be christians around me were great at proving the opposite. I'm a very black and white person. If you believe it, act on it. If you say it, then do it. If you calim to be a Christian dont move into someone's home, let them pay your bills then steal from them, lie to them and do your drugs in front of their kids behind their back. It's as simple as that. I understand addictions, but I also understand that to choose to steal from your host, then to sit and load your pipe in front of his kids and get wasted is a choice, a vile choice, then to go out and try to preach to him and talk about getting into the ministry? How backward is that?

I prayed for various things over the years to no avail, and when I simply asked for guidance and reassurrance there was stilldead silence. The wife will believe anything anyone tells her, from the most corrupt ministers in the biz, and she cannot understand how I can have doubts. She thinks a person with doubts is basicly just an atheist. Whatever. Sorry but some minister who fleeces his congregationfor enough money to own a mansion, land with all sorts of lodges and clubs on it and trades his wife and kids for his mistress who openly gets a nice spot in his ministry does not convince me he is a Christian, he convinces me he is a bloody hypocrite.

They tell me to find a church to go to. which one of those would I pick? Frankly I dont know if I'll go again. I dont know what to believe, maybe I dont belong even thinking I'm a Christian. Maybe not. Frankly I have no idea what to believe anymore.

daywalker1966 wrote:As for mythology and the bible, I used to study mythology in school. and the strories of men and womenfrom the sky such as Zeus, Atlas, and a host of others, all have the same characteristics. These are beings who have supernatural powers and perform supernatural acts, and they have sons and daughters like they are. They were worshipped by ancient civilizations who laid down their lives for them as do Christians. Someone replied that there have been dead people resurrected in modern times. This would be a big surprise to me, not that I would swear it wasn't true, I have never heard of one instance.

The bible is the same as the other books in that respect, supernatural forces, beings and situations. Yet none of those sorts of things has taken place in more recent times. I am told that belief is based on faith. All well and good but every religion out there has faith and has followers who swear to it's authenticity. For me, sadly those who have claimed to be christians around me were great at proving the opposite. I'm a very black and white person. If you believe it, act on it. If you say it, then do it. If you calim to be a Christian dont move into someone's home, let them pay your bills then steal from them, lie to them and do your drugs in front of their kids behind their back. It's as simple as that. I understand addictions, but I also understand that to choose to steal from your host, then to sit and load your pipe in front of his kids and get wasted is a choice, a vile choice, then to go out and try to preach to him and talk about getting into the ministry? How backward is that?

I prayed for various things over the years to no avail, and when I simply asked for guidance and reassurrance there was stilldead silence. The wife will believe anything anyone tells her, from the most corrupt ministers in the biz, and she cannot understand how I can have doubts. She thinks a person with doubts is basicly just an atheist. Whatever. Sorry but some minister who fleeces his congregationfor enough money to own a mansion, land with all sorts of lodges and clubs on it and trades his wife and kids for his mistress who openly gets a nice spot in his ministry does not convince me he is a Christian, he convinces me he is a bloody hypocrite.

They tell me to find a church to go to. which one of those would I pick? Frankly I dont know if I'll go again. I dont know what to believe, maybe I dont belong even thinking I'm a Christian. Maybe not. Frankly I have no idea what to believe anymore.

Not every minister fleeces his congregation for tons of money to own a mansion, own vast land, airplanes, or trades his wife and kids for his mistress or mister...

Jesus did say:

Mat 7:15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Mat 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

There are many false ones out there but there are far more good ministers you never hear about because they do not make the evening news.

Do you want to know Christ?

I say this because, going to church does not make you a Christian any more than living in a automobile garage makes you a car.

That is why I ask, do you want to know Christ?

It is Christ who transforms a person into a Christian. I used to think, to be a Christian meant you had to be perfect. My old reasoning was wrong as I did not understand what Jesus came to do: change people’s lives. Change, to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions by relying on Christ daily to help do these things.

a Christian may stumble, fail, get bruised up a bit in the old ego, but it is knowing that there is one that will not pull the rug out from under you, nor pull the wool over your eyes, that there will always be someone there even when you can’t feel. That there is someone who cares enough not to ever let you go and will help you through times of doubt and woes, good times, and grand times, always teaching, always cherishing you, always there. A Christian is a person on a journey discovering that these things are true in Christ alone.

So for now, suffice to say on other thing other than – Do you want to know Christ?-
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Continued Below:

daywalker1966,

I am sure you may have prayed prayers like the sinner’s prayer or something like that past or present and these did not do to much for you. But I would like you to use this little prayer to prime your pump and from it, really pray, from the deepest bottom of your heart unto God, in the quiet time you may be facing now.

Dearest Lord, if you are there, show me you are real –I heard enough about you but I do not know if I believe in anything anymore. To many times been let down, discouraged, tired of live’n sometimes. So Jesus, here I am. I ain’t much to look at – got a lot of faults, have regrets, done stupid things, please release me from these so I can believe in you and know you.

(Now Take it from here to improvise and really pray from your heart whatever needs to be said and end you prayer with…)

Lord Jesus have mercy on me, have mercy on me, have mercy…I don’t know what to believe, help me to believe - me save me from my own unbelief…

(Add more if you like on your own)
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Help me understand something.

Your prayed to a god that you equate to myths such as Zeus and Atlas.

Let me make sure I got this. "God, (who I don't really believe in) guide me and assure me even though I really believe you are just a myth."
Am I being harsh here, or is this about right?
A while back we had a thread on prayer. One that led to a lot of heated discussion. Personally, I am not the least bit surprised at the results of your prayer. Let me see if I can give an example. Let's say you get a brand new state of the art mobile phone. You open it up and try to make a call. It doesn't work. At this point are you going to say that the wireless company doesn't exist? No, a rational approach would be to read the operators manual. Could it be that you have a wrong understanding of prayer? Could it be that you have a wrong understanding of God? Let's think about it. According to YOUR understanding of prayer and how you think God should act, you prayed something. You expected God to do something. So, if God doesn't respond to who you think He is and how He is supposed to act then you reject the notion that he is. Perhaps you can see how stubborn and illogical that approach is to finding God. You are saying God should bow to you. Imagine if your own child walked in the room and said, "Dad you are buying me my favorite toy right now." The child obviously has a very wrong idea of who you are, and how to communicate with you. Are you going to buy this child a toy? Nope. The child throws a fit and says, "you don't love me." Is that true? Yet, somehow we expect different of God. Especially when He has given us an operators manual that teaches us different. But, if you believe that the operators manual is simply a collection of superstitions and myths then you aren't going to rightly handle it, are you?

The bible is the same as the other books in that respect, supernatural forces, beings and situations. Yet none of those sorts of things has taken place in more recent times. I am told that belief is based on faith. All well and good but every religion out there has faith and has followers who swear to it's authenticity.

OK. So you are saying that all religions are basically the same. This is the view that religions have differences on the surface, but at the core they are the same. But what if that is not true? And I would say that it is not. In fact it is the opposite, and can be proven so. It is completely fallacious to say that the God of the bible and Zeus and Atlas are essentially the same. At the surface many religions have similarities, but at the core they are fundamentally different. And most notably unique and fundamentally different is the Christian faith. Even the way faith is defined is fundamentally unique to Christianity. The bible itself is also fundamentally different and unique. Particularly in its historicity and prophetic accuracy. So, you can make these claims and continue to believe something that is not so, and in turn continue in frustration. Or, you can investigate for yourself, and stop having blind faith in these claims. Now, you have either investigated what I am talking about, and you can give your own report of how you, through your own research, have found the bible and Christianity to be just like all other religions. Or, you are simply regurgitating arguments which satisfy your predispositions. Arguments that you have taken on FAITH.

Regarding bad preachers and churches. The fact that you can recognize that they are bad tells me that you inherently know the difference between true and false. I am amazed at how many people will see this as being evidence against the legitimate. You wouldn't do that in other areas of your life. Do you throw away all your money because counterfeit money exists? Do you claim that real money doesn't exists? Of course not. Because you KNOW the value of the legitimate.

jlay, if I want to be chastised, I have a wife for that. Are you trying to be nice? Wow, I'm impressed. Sorry if I dont have the faith you think I should have, but I've had my reasons over the years. You sound like the guys who tell me that God doesn't answer my prayers because he finds black clothes and symphony metal sinful. Your approach is insulting. You dont know my attitude during my prayers, for that matter you dont know me at all. No, I dont dont expect God to bow to me, and that is an insulting way for you to assume you know my attitude.

You remind me of a mormon minister who came to my house once and loudly told me to get on my knees and repent of my sins. He was walking a few minutes later.

You dont know anything about my level of sincerity, you dont know what I have seen or been through over the last few years. I speak from experience. I never said all religions were the same, but I'm not too impressed at this point. I hate corrective attitudes from strangers. Try learning some tact. That would go a long way for you.

And as far as your phone analogy, if I tried a phone over and over and over and it never worked, I might assume that my opinions of it were wrong, and if others came to me and said "oh I've heard that phone works great" good for them. That doesnt help me much. Yes I do research.

I hope you arent one of these crusaders who try to win souls for Jesus.