Evidence for God from Science

For many of these illnesses, there is no cure. There is currently no cure for arthritis, Crohn's, Ulcerative Colitis, Diabetes (the treatment of course, being insulin derived from genetically modified bacteria, the result of research from pharmaceutical researchers and companies)

For these conditions, treating the symptoms ARE the treatment. I take this because, other than surgery, there ARE no other treatments available. Despite what many of the quacks out there say, diet does NOT affect or cause these problems. There are clear etiological pathways and these medications that are available prevent the symptoms. For some crazy reason, some people will show complete remission, others are affected severely.

I was so bad that I was facing surgery when my doc suggested Remicade. And not to tout that specific drug but there are several of the same kind out there now. Not to mention, of course, basic antibiotics, anti-virals, OTC drugs. All of which have some chemical pathways in manufacturing that can include some chemicals that would normally spook people.

Are there abuses in the industry....sure...but for every example of abuse, there are genuine doctors and researchers (Rich being one of them and I know of several in my acquaintance) who search for answers...not every pharmaceutical company out there is trying to con people, despite the websites out there that claim that.

My point about OEC is that somehow there is this willingness to believe (and I think Christians are somehow more vulnerable to this than I ever expected) that doctors and medical researchers are evil and greedy people who are only in it for the money. And yet these are people who, for the most part, went into this line of research because they want to help people. And they use the exact same scientific method that non-medical research uses (of course they can't deliberately expose people to diseases so they must work extra hard to be sure their studies are accurate). Why are we willing to believe those researchers for Old Earth Creationism (aren't they prone to biases, greed and prone to hubris and yet are so willing to blame medical researchers, if the methods are correct.

For these conditions, treating the symptoms ARE the treatment. I take this because, other than surgery, there ARE no other treatments available. Despite what many of the quacks out there say, diet does NOT affect or cause these problems.

Zoe, this is exactly what the mainstream medical field is telling people. Treating the symptoms only treats the symptoms. it does nothing to help what's causing the symptoms. Zoe, have you ever tried actually changing your diet? Or, are you just going on the word of doctors? I have been studying this subject since last year when I found out that my Dad was diagnosed with liver cancer. I'm not going to push this on you. If you are sick of being sick, and are willing to listen to what I have to say, then I'm willing to talk to you about it. I just have one suggestion. Pray. Ask God to show you if you should listen to what I have to say. If you feel that God is leading you to listen, then pm me, and we can talk.

My point about OEC is that somehow there is this willingness to believe (and I think Christians are somehow more vulnerable to this than I ever expected) that doctors and medical researchers are evil and greedy people who are only in it for the money.

I have already made the point that I don't believe that all doctors are evil and greedy. My point was that many doctors are funded by drug companies. They are trained by people who believe that drugs are the only way to treat people. I compare it to someone who is schooled by a Christian school that teaches only YEC. The people being taught are taught that YEC is the only true interpretation of scripture. It is only when these students start to question what they are taught, pray for God's guidance, and start searching on their own, that they see that there is something else besides YEC. When you get tired of not being healthy, and believe that there has to be a different way besides drugs, then the Lord will show you. Zoe, I'm a relatively healthy guy. I mean relative to other people my own age. I like to exercise, especially jogging. Up until last year, My knees, ankles, and muscles would ache really badly while, and after I jogged. I made only one change to my diet, while still eating a lot of junk. This one change made it so I feel NO joint pain at all. I know for a fact that my joint pain is gone without medicine. So, you can believe that drugs are the only answer, or you can be open to something else.

Have you checked to see if this is within their legal rights?

jlay wrote:Have you checked to see if this is within their legal rights?

Not yet. We will if we have to. If she will lose her job otherwise, it will be an option. If we do file a lawsuit, My guess is that she'll lose her job anyway. We just had a guy at my work who sued the company to pay for his medical bills resulting from an injury at work. When the company got wind of the lawsuit, they told him he could either quit, or he'd be fired.

I have had this for over eleven years....you really think I haven't tried different diets? This is NOT a dietary issue, Believe me, I have done my research. I would GLADLY, happily, change diets if that was all it took. But after "experimenting" with different diets, different probiotics, those don't work. I am ecstatic that some people find remission in their disease and I don't even doubt that in some instances that it works for some people....but that has no bearing on those for whom it doesn't work. After two blood transfusions and facing surgery, I have never felt better in those ten years. There is nothing wrong at all with managing the symptoms.

May I ask what is the basis for these ideas? Is it some idea that any medicines are bad? How do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line?

Would you tell a diabetic not to take insulin? Why not? Because it's "natural?" Except for the fact that genetically engineered cloned bacteria manufacture the insulin which must be processed and isolated from those bacteria. It certainly doesn't cure diabetes.

Aspirin? Tylenol? How about those for whom diet does not decrease their cholesterol (I know several)

Is it in the manufacturing process?

Is it the side effects?

Hey, in the end, I'm glad that you are into eating healthy. And I have been too...believe me....but in the worst moments it doesn't matter what you are putting into your body when you end up rejecting almost everything and losing close to 60 lbs because eating something, even nutritional foods, causes pain and not eating means not being in pain. And we will probably just have to agree to disagree. This is not a spiritual matter and by that I mean you are not being any more spiritual by refusing this than I am for not. I have prayed, believe me I have prayed....remember eleven years?? Don't think I haven't....and I find it slightly....annoying that you assume that this is a matter I haven't thought deeply about. (after four graduate research papers about this and reading over 200 sources, including the "natural" ones, I think I know my stuff)

May I ask....do you agree with the idea of colon cleansers and the idea of autotoxicity?

I have had this for over eleven years....you really think I haven't tried different diets? This is NOT a dietary issue, Believe me, I have done my research. I would GLADLY, happily, change diets if that was all it took. But after "experimenting" with different diets, different probiotics, those don't work. I am ecstatic that some people find remission in their disease and I don't even doubt that in some instances that it works for some people....but that has no bearing on those for whom it doesn't work. After two blood transfusions and facing surgery, I have never felt better in those ten years. There is nothing wrong at all with managing the symptoms.

Zoe, I'm sorry I upset you, that wasn't my intention. I'm not talking about different diets. Just 1 specific diet. It may be all it takes, if you are willing to try a specific diet. If all you want is to manage your symptoms, then that's fine.

May I ask what is the basis for these ideas? Is it some idea that any medicines are bad? How do you draw the line? Where do you draw the line?

It's just a little known, natural way to let the body heal itself. I'm not saying that medicines are bad. I'm just saying that there may be a better way.

Aspirin? Tylenol? How about those for whom diet does not decrease their cholesterol (I know several)

I'm talking about a specific diet, not just any diet.

Hey, in the end, I'm glad that you are into eating healthy.

Lol. I do not eat healthy at all. I haven't gotten to the point that I've felt like I need to drastically change my diet. I haven't had any serious health problems as of yet. I found out about this specific way of eating because I wanted to help my Dad.

This is not a spiritual matter and by that I mean you are not being any more spiritual by refusing this than I am for not

I'm not saying it's a spiritual matter. Zoe, all I'm saying is that I wanted you to pray about this specific thing that I'm talking about. When I come across something controversial, that I'm not sure about, I pray about it.

Don't think I haven't....and I find it slightly....annoying that you assume that this is a matter I haven't thought deeply about. (after four graduate research papers about this and reading over 200 sources, including the "natural" ones, I think I know my stuff)

If you have tried this specific way of eating that I'm talking about, then I apologize. I'm not sure that you're even familiar with what I'm talking about.

May I ask....do you agree with the idea of colon cleansers and the idea of autotoxicity?

I don't really know anything about colon cleansers, and have never heard of autotoxicity. The diet, I'm talking about is very simple in concept, and it just makes a lot of sense to me.

go for it, provide the link...

zoegirl wrote:go for it, provide the link...

Zoe, like I said, this is a controversial subject. If you search(google), you'll find the whole range of responses from fraud to people that have been healed. I did a great deal of studying, and praying while looking for answers about my Dad. This is where I was lead. He's not the only Dr. who believes in this, but he's probably the leader in his field. Search the website, and I'm here if you have any questionshttp://www.phmiracleliving.com/

Rick,
I was writing a rather extensive critique of the website and was thinking of posting it but then I rethought and saved it as a draft. If you would like to continue this I will gladly post my thoughts. I realized that my critique went rather...blunt and I certainly don't want to continue the discussion if you have no interest.

Suffice to say that I found a myriad of mistakes, rather a sad lack of basic science, and a commensurate amount of "greed" in the numerous products they sold (rather ironic when the charge is leveled against the big pharma companies ), products that are unfortunate scams (alkaline water, ground up vegetables, baking soda, saltwater). I am amazed at the willingness of people to accuse big pharmaceutical companies of greed and fraudulent relationship with the FDA when websites like this that offer supplements are in no way regulated by the FDA and none of their "findings" are the result of any hard research.

However, I don't necessarily want to dredge this any further if you do not want to. I will say I looked up his credentials and I found them rather lacking. If nothing else, you should really investigate this http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/young3.html. He is not a real doctor and has his supposed mentor is no doctor either and in fact has been arrested for fraud and misleading patients.

I don't know about your wife's rights and I wonder if they really could fire her. I don't think asking her to wear a mask is unreasonable.

I don't know anything more about that program and site than my impressions in looking at it at first glance, and no offense intended to anyone, that was my impression too.

My Dad was an Elite Partner with Hallellujah Acres and claimed for over 5 years that he was healed from cancer based upon his changing to a Vegan diet after he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He died of it after those 5 years, denying he still had cancer until the last 2 months of his life. I don't begrudge him his faith in the diet and supplements as he outlived the doctor's prognosis by 3 years and up until the last 2 months he had a good quality of life. I don't know that medicine would have done him any better. He lived in denial however and the organization used him and his testimony to sell their products right until the end.

Medicine, drugs etc are not always the best answer and like anything else there are shysters there as in any areas of life. He claimed medicine and pharmacies were out to get him until the very end, while he was used and mislead by the organization and never saw the irony.

Rick, I don't mean to take away hope or judge you on this. Believe me, I was cheering for my Dad and wanting him to do well (and he did relative to his options) . There is however a sector of Christianity that gets caught up in these diet and other plans and they get a lot of milage with conspiracy theories, and poor theology and they prey upon people who either don't know any better or who are so desparate that they find no hope in medicine and they put their faith in these plans and pay huge fees and buy supplements and make these organizations rich. I don't blame those who in desparation try to find hope. I think however that those people who run these types of organizations and get rich and manipulate testimonies are owed a special place in hell (and yes I know that is harsh) for their actions in this regard. I hope I'm wrong. The irony however is that those who claim conspiracies of entire professions and industries while they enrich themselves in the same manner, look to me as no better than what they claim of others.

My dad died on Christmas morning of 2004 claiming the entire time that he was healed and he suffered terribly because he refused in the end to even take any medicine to manage the pain at the end because he didn't want to demonstrate any lack of faith in the diet that he bet his life on. He lived longer than expected and I thank God for that. He died a very unnecessarily painful death however trusting in an organization that I researched thoroughly and knew was not particularly reputable or honest and it was very difficult to watch. I sincerely hope your Dad's experience is better.

blessings,

bart

zoegirl wrote:Rick,
I was writing a rather extensive critique of the website and was thinking of posting it but then I rethought and saved it as a draft. If you would like to continue this I will gladly post my thoughts. I realized that my critique went rather...blunt and I certainly don't want to continue the discussion if you have no interest.

Suffice to say that I found a myriad of mistakes, rather a sad lack of basic science, and a commensurate amount of "greed" in the numerous products they sold (rather ironic when the charge is leveled against the big pharma companies ), products that are unfortunate scams (alkaline water, ground up vegetables, baking soda, saltwater). I am amazed at the willingness of people to accuse big pharmaceutical companies of greed and fraudulent relationship with the FDA when websites like this that offer supplements are in no way regulated by the FDA and none of their "findings" are the result of any hard research.

However, I don't necessarily want to dredge this any further if you do not want to. I will say I looked up his credentials and I found them rather lacking. If nothing else, you should really investigate this http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/young3.html. He is not a real doctor and has his supposed mentor is no doctor either and in fact has been arrested for fraud and misleading patients.

I don't know about your wife's rights and I wonder if they really could fire her. I don't think asking her to wear a mask is unreasonable.

Zoe, I've read all the reports. Good and bad for alkaline diets.

products that are unfortunate scams (alkaline water

Zoe I've owned, and used an alkaline water machine for over a year now. it is not a scam. It's not a cure for cancer that some people believe it is, but it certainly has many benefits. Alkaline water
has allowed me to exercise pain free for the last year, while not making any other changes to my diet. I went through a lot of searching before I got the machine. I've read a lot of negative and positive opinions about alkaline water. I can tell you that it's not a scam. As for dr. Young, I do agree with you that he has a lot of stuff for sale on his website. I haven't bought any of it, so I can't tell you if it is necessary or not. He's not the only Dr. who believes that an alkaline diet works. If you make your own decision not to follow the diet, that's fine with me. I've read just about everything that people have written about Dr. Young, so anything you post won't surprise me. Look at the alkaline diet itself.

Canuckster1127 wrote:I don't know anything more about that program and site than my impressions in looking at it at first glance, and no offense intended to anyone, that was my impression too.

My Dad was an Elite Partner with Hallellujah Acres and claimed for over 5 years that he was healed from cancer based upon his changing to a Vegan diet after he was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer. He died of it after those 5 years, denying he still had cancer until the last 2 months of his life. I don't begrudge him his faith in the diet and supplements as he outlived the doctor's prognosis by 3 years and up until the last 2 months he had a good quality of life. I don't know that medicine would have done him any better. He lived in denial however and the organization used him and his testimony to sell their products right until the end.

Medicine, drugs etc are not always the best answer and like anything else there are shysters there as in any areas of life. He claimed medicine and pharmacies were out to get him until the very end, while he was used and mislead by the organization and never saw the irony.

Rick, I don't mean to take away hope or judge you on this. Believe me, I was cheering for my Dad and wanting him to do well (and he did relative to his options) . There is however a sector of Christianity that gets caught up in these diet and other plans and they get a lot of milage with conspiracy theories, and poor theology and they prey upon people who either don't know any better or who are so desparate that they find no hope in medicine and they put their faith in these plans and pay huge fees and buy supplements and make these organizations rich. I don't blame those who in desparation try to find hope. I think however that those people who run these types of organizations and get rich and manipulate testimonies are owed a special place in hell (and yes I know that is harsh) for their actions in this regard. I hope I'm wrong. The irony however is that those who claim conspiracies of entire professions and industries while they enrich themselves in the same manner, look to me as no better than what they claim of others.

My dad died on Christmas morning of 2004 claiming the entire time that he was healed and he suffered terribly because he refused in the end to even take any medicine to manage the pain at the end because he didn't want to demonstrate any lack of faith in the diet that he bet his life on. He lived longer than expected and I thank God for that. He died a very unnecessarily painful death however trusting in an organization that I researched thoroughly and knew was not particularly reputable or honest and it was very difficult to watch. I sincerely hope your Dad's experience is better.

blessings,

bart

Bart, my Dad died last September. He was set in his ways, and didn't really want to try anything different that may have helped. My Mom did have him on a product, until I noticed it was full of sugar, and sugar is no good for anyone with cancer. Anyone can follow an alkaline diet without making anyone rich. We don't need all those supplements on Dr. Young's website. Any simple search of alkaline foods will show that. If Dr. Young has become greedy, that doesn't change the simple fact that natural, cheap alkaline foods are healthy.

It does tremendously decrease his credibility when he could simply provide information free of charge about how to make any of these supplements very cheaply from ingredients found in any grocery store. It does decrease his credibility when he charges ridiculously high amounts of money for a 3 day "health summit" when he doesn't have the academic credientials, makes stupid mistakes any high school chemistry student should be able to pick up, and yes it decreases his credibility by charging money for "blood" tests for diagnoses which have no valid diagnostic value, and it certainly decreases his credibility when I look and see that he has no valid scientific backgroud.

If you can show me any reputable scientist/doctor/reseracher who supports this without resorting to pushing thousands and thousands of unecessary products and empty "consultations" then you could convince me. But a simple Google scholar search provides no such reference. There are references to eating more alkaline-ash foods but none to this crazy diet.

Some basic anatomy here http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... oral2.html

zoegirl wrote:It does tremendously decrease his credibility when he could simply provide information free of charge about how to make any of these supplements very cheaply from ingredients found in any grocery store. It does decrease his credibility when he charges ridiculously high amounts of money for a 3 day "health summit" when he doesn't have the academic credientials, makes stupid mistakes any high school chemistry student should be able to pick up, and yes it decreases his credibility by charging money for "blood" tests for diagnoses which have no valid diagnostic value, and it certainly decreases his credibility when I look and see that he has no valid scientific backgroud.

If you can show me any reputable scientist/doctor/reseracher who supports this without resorting to pushing thousands and thousands of unecessary products and empty "consultations" then you could convince me. But a simple Google scholar search provides no such reference. There are references to eating more alkaline-ash foods but none to this crazy diet.

Some basic anatomy here http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRel ... oral2.html

Zoe,

Have you seen advertisements for products such as coral calcium or alkaline water that are supposed to neutralize acid in your bloodstream? Taking calcium or drinking alkaline water does not affect blood acidity. Anyone who tells you that certain foods or supplements make your stomach or blood acidic does not understand nutrition.

I really am not familiar with coral calcium. But, I am familiar with alkaline water. This quote from the quack link you posted is what one would call a straw man argument. I have never heard any proponents of an alkaline diet say that alkaline water or alkaline foods change the acidity of blood. The premise is that the body must keep the blood in a very small range on the ph scale. Around 7.365, slightly alkaline. Anything above 7 is alkaline. The body will do whatever it has to to keep the blood in that range. If we aren't eating enough natural(veggies) alkaline foods, then the blood must take anything it needs from other parts of the body. For example if we have too much acid in our body, Calcium is taken from the bones to buffer the acids, thereby leaving the bones with a calcium deficiency. Normally the body rids itself of acidic toxins by defecation, perspiration, respiration, and urination. If we have an excess of acids in our body that those 4 methods of elimination can't get rid of, the blood gets rid of the acids by putting it into the fatty tissue, and muscles and organs. The excess acids build up over time to cause many problems, one being arthritis. Alkaline water, in theory, says that the alkalinity of the water helps flush out the excess acidic toxins that the body can't get rid of if we eat the acidic foods that most westerners eat.

There are references to eating more alkaline-ash foods but none to this crazy diet.

If you mean crazy diet as in all the products on Dr. young's website, then I agree with you. One doesn't need to spend money on those products if one eats healthy alkaline foods. A simple google search of alkaline food charts will show you what natural foods are alkaline. It seems Dr. Young is selling a lot more stuff than he used to. Since last year, when I was more familiar with his website, he has completely changed his website. I will see if I can find some more alkaline proponents that don't have their websites filled with products, like Dr. Young does. One I can remember is Sang Whang. His website is:http://alkalife.com/ Read over what he has to say. Alkaline water has been around for decades in Japan. Many people have these machines there. Japan is one of the healthiest countries in the world. I believe their diet is the reason why they live so long.

However, I don't necessarily want to dredge this any further if you do not want to.

If you want to post any thing that you have found that bothers you, go ahead. I can let you know what I can, and hopefully help you weed through the garbage, and lead you to the good stuff. Like I said, that quack link started out with a strawman argument in its first paragraph. If you believe all the similar false arguments that critics pose, then I can see how you would be skeptical. I was as much a skeptic when I first started studying this last year.

Zoe, here's a website that explains the alkaline diet without the products for sale:http://www.alkalinediet.org/and another:http://www.immunesystemremedies.com/alkaline-diet.html