Evidence for God from Science

Silvertusk wrote:But if God has a new convenant with us through Jesus Christ - doesn't that proceed the one stated in the Old testament? And so Israel becoming a nation in the last Century has nothing really to do with God?

SIlvertusk?

Because God still needs to fulfill His promises on account of the patriarchs.. Read Genesis 15:18, Joshua 1:4 , 2 Chron 33:7 and 1 Kings 9:3. He hasn't forgotten them however, no.. God's desire is that they be SAVED!!! Romans 11:1-2. He is just trying to make them jealous by showing them that the gentiles can also be saved too.. He just wants to save the whole world through His people, his first love. But he can't move prophetically over the whole earth apart from His people..

Israel as a nation never rejected Christ as their savior. Only the pharisees rejected him. Where are you getting this information that Israel as a whole rejected him or his message of grace?

From the bible and from history.

John 1:11 "He came unto his own,
and his own received him not."

romans 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

John 10:37-43

3Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their (Israel) minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Eph 4:18 They (Israel)are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Whether you like it or not, the Pharisees represent the nation of Israel.

Well you are mistaken.. Because the message of the Bible is the same in both new AND old testaments, that being that we are saved through grace and not by our works alone.. So how was Abraham saved? Works? No.. Read Romans 4:1-3

You are talking about two different things. You are talking about an individuals salvation versus God's plans for the nation of Israel. But, the message is NOT the same. The message in the old testament was for ISRAEL. Find anywhere in the OT where Grace by believing is specifically preached. Aside from Abraham's faith in God being acredited to Him as righteousness, you just won't find it. The OT reveals a veryu specific and unique plan, which is to be carried out through this people Israel. It is about God's law to Israel and His plans for them. It is not until Paul reveals the mystery that we even hear about the Gospel of grace. In fact the disciples, while they were with Christ were completely oblivious to the death and resurection of Christ. Even when He plainly told them, they couldn't understand. After He died, where they standing outside the tomb waiting? Nope. So what then did they preach when they were sent out. They preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. To whom? Israel. Who were they told not to go to? The Gentiles. Explicity. They preached the Messiah, and to repent. Not grace for believing.

So what you are saying is that God's message of the old testament is different from the new testament? Not true.. In fact we see in Romans 11 that God does NOT reject his people.. There is always a remnant of Jews chosen by grace. Sure people are going to pervert the Gospel but the message of God always stays the same.

Where did I say God rejected His people. I stated the opposite. They rejected Him. If you haven't noticed, Jesus is not sitting on His throne in the temple in Jerusalem ruling over His people.

The bible says it is different. Paul says His gospel was a mystery, revealed directly to Him from God, which was hidden until this time. If it was hidden, then how could it be the same? Of course it is different. It went from being a program exclusive to Israel to then to a new program which was available to all.

"The Jews, at present cast off because of unbelief, will in due time as a people be taken into God’s favor again, when the fullness of the Gentiles be come in and when the Deliverer (Christ) shall have appeared again. As a people they are for this age judicially blinded, although there is a remnant according to faith in Christ. The Gentiles grafted into the Church must not trample upon the Jews as a reprobate people, but remember that the law of faith excludes all boasting, either of ourselves or against others." -Biblia.com

And how does this disagree with wat I am saying??

If Israel (as a whole) had received its Messiah, do you think we would have seen the destruction of Jerusalem, and the dispersion of Israel?

jlay wrote: From the bible and from history.

John 1:11 "He came unto his own,
and his own received him not."

romans 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

Romans 11:25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

John 10:37-43

3Even after Jesus had performed so many signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38 This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
“Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:

40 “He has blinded their eyes
and hardened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them.”

41 Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.
42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they loved human praise more than praise from God.

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their (Israel) minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

Eph 4:18 They (Israel)are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.

Whether you like it or not, the Pharisees represent the nation of Israel.

Those verses have nothing to do with a total rejection.. A blindness or stubbornness, yes, but not a total PERMANENT refusal.. And don't forget that there is always a remnant of Israelis chosen by grace.. Romans 11:5 There is still hope for them, that is why I'm saying to you that God is not finished with them yet.

jlay wrote:You are talking about two different things. You are talking about an individuals salvation versus God's plans for the nation of Israel. But, the message is NOT the same. The message in the old testament was for ISRAEL. Find anywhere in the OT where Grace by believing is specifically preached. Aside from Abraham's faith in God being acredited to Him as righteousness, you just won't find it. The OT reveals a veryu specific and unique plan, which is to be carried out through this people Israel. It is about God's law to Israel and His plans for them. It is not until Paul reveals the mystery that we even hear about the Gospel of grace. In fact the disciples, while they were with Christ were completely oblivious to the death and resurection of Christ. Even when He plainly told them, they couldn't understand. After He died, where they standing outside the tomb waiting? Nope. So what then did they preach when they were sent out. They preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. To whom? Israel. Who were they told not to go to? The Gentiles. Explicity. They preached the Messiah, and to repent. Not grace for believing.

Wrong again... The message of the old testament and the new testament are exactly the same. Yes, it could be argued that the fullness of God's grace was revealed in the NT via Christ, but not totally hidden either. You think God is going to derail His old testament people with a totally different testament from works OT to grace NT? No.. He simply augments it in the NT.. The message of the OT might be for Israel, but that is only directional.. Not different.

Consider these verses of those of the OT who understood that fulfilling the rituals of the law was not the same thing as receiving the mercy of God...

Habakkuk 2:4 Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

1 Samuel 15:22, "Then Samuel said: ‘Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.’ "

Proverbs 21:3, "To do righteousness and justice is more acceptable to the Lord than sacrifice."

Amos 5:21-24, "I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings. Take away from Me the noise of your songs, for I will not hear the melody of your stringed instruments. But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream."

Ecclesiastes 5:1, "Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil."

Hosea 6:6, "For I desire mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Psalm 40:5-8, "Many, O Lord my God, are Your wonderful works which You have done; and Your thoughts toward us cannot be recounted to You in order; if I would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; my ears You have opened; burnt offering and sin offering You did not require. Then I said, ‘Behold, I come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me. I delight to do Your will, O my God, and Your law is within my heart.’ "

Psalm 103:10-17, "He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; he remembers that we are dust. As for man, his days are like grass; as a flower of the field, so he flourishes. For the wind passes over it, and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more. But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, and His righteousness to children's children."

Psalm 51:16-17, "For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it; you do not delight in burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit, a broken and a contrite heart – these, O God, You will not despise."

Where did I say God rejected His people. I stated the opposite. They rejected Him. If you haven't noticed, Jesus is not sitting on His throne in the temple in Jerusalem ruling over His people.

The bible says it is different. Paul says His gospel was a mystery, revealed directly to Him from God, which was hidden until this time. If it was hidden, then how could it be the same? Of course it is different. It went from being a program exclusive to Israel to then to a new program which was available to all.

No not hidden, just not fully revealed... That's a big difference.. On top of that do you really think that Israel was suppose to squelch it's message to the rest of the world?

And how does this disagree with wat I am saying??

If Israel (as a whole) had received its Messiah, do you think we would have seen the destruction of Jerusalem, and the dispersion of Israel?

Because you seem to be implying that God is finished with Israel.. You are in error.

Romans 11:5 There is still hope for them, that is why I'm saying to you that God is not finished with them yet.

OK. Why are you arguing with me about something we obviously agree on, and the scriptures plainly teach?

The message of the old testament and the new testament are exactly the same.

You are going to have to be a lot more specific in what you mean by message. Truth is truth, and it is the same. There are most assuredly different programs, and those programs have a distinct message. Now, if you want to say, they all tie back into the central message, fine. But, that really isn't what I am discussing here. The message was Israel was the CHOSEN people. And through this CHOSEN nation God would send the Messiah to set up His Kingdom on earth. And in doing so, all the nations (gentiles) would be drawn to Him. Israel would implement this program by exactly what John the Baptist and Jesus preached. "REPENT, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." Jesus preached the Kingdom. "The Kingdom of God is like......." We have another great example in the faith of the centurion. He demonstrated the faith that Israel lacked. The faith in the authority of the Messiah. If the programs are exactly the same, then why is their an apostle Paul? Do you understand what abolished means? "But now we have been released [Abolished: Strongs #2673 same as Eph 2:15] from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Rom 7
And so, yes there is a new message. The message of grace is not the message of Israel and the Kingdom. And
They are not exactly the same. Just as the covenant in the garden is not the same as Noah's covenant. And just as Noah's covenant is not the same as Israel's covenant. And just as the mystery program is not the same as Israel's Kingdom program.

All those verses you site are great, but they don't have anything to do with what I am saying.

No not hidden, just not fully revealed... That's a big difference..

(Rom 16:25) Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
(Col 1:26,27)Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Either it was kept secret or it wasn't. Either it was hid or it wasn't.

On top of that do you really think that Israel was suppose to squelch it's message to the rest of the world?

What? You are totally jumping to conclusions. I am not saying that. Israel was to be the messenger. They were to be the city on the hill. They were to reveal the Messiah to all nations. They didn't.

Because you seem to be implying that God is finished with Israel.. You are in error.

Where in the world have I said that God is finished with Israel? Either point that out, or please stop accusing me of this. I will say that "Israel" has no role in the mystery program. Paul clearly states that there is NO difference between Jew or Gentile. (1 Cor 12:13) ‘For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.’

jlay wrote:OK. Why are you arguing with me about something we obviously agree on, and the scriptures plainly teach?

Maybe we got off on the wrong foot.. I believe this all started when you stated that the formation of Israel was not a supernatural event. With that I disagree..

jlay wrote:You are going to have to be a lot more specific in what you mean by message. Truth is truth, and it is the same. There are most assuredly different programs, and those programs have a distinct message. Now, if you want to say, they all tie back into the central message, fine. But, that really isn't what I am discussing here. The message was Israel was the CHOSEN people. And through this CHOSEN nation God would send the Messiah to set up His Kingdom on earth. And in doing so, all the nations (gentiles) would be drawn to Him. Israel would implement this program by exactly what John the Baptist and Jesus preached. "REPENT, for the Kingdom of God is at hand." Jesus preached the Kingdom. "The Kingdom of God is like......." We have another great example in the faith of the centurion. He demonstrated the faith that Israel lacked. The faith in the authority of the Messiah. If the programs are exactly the same, then why is their an apostle Paul? Do you understand what abolished means? "But now we have been released [Abolished: Strongs #2673 same as Eph 2:15] from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter." Rom 7
And so, yes there is a new message. The message of grace is not the message of Israel and the Kingdom. And
They are not exactly the same. Just as the covenant in the garden is not the same as Noah's covenant. And just as Noah's covenant is not the same as Israel's covenant. And just as the mystery program is not the same as Israel's Kingdom program.

All those verses you site are great, but they don't have anything to do with what I am saying.

I disagree.. When I mean they share a central message, that is the central message of salvation via grace. They were both identical in that respect. God simply isn't going to say that you have to work for your salvation to one people in the OT then totally flip it and say now it's salvation by grace to another people in the NT. That would be deceiving.. Of course God wouldn't do that, and the verses I shared with you prove that.

jlay wrote:(Rom 16:25) Now to him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began
(Col 1:26,27)Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Either it was kept secret or it wasn't. Either it was hid or it wasn't.

No.. That isn't what I'm talking about. Of course the hidden message was that the gentiles would be fellow heirs with the Jews. Yes, you could argue that that was hidden but not the message of grace. John 4:22 states that salvation is clearly of the Jews not gentiles. If so, then they totally haven't misunderstood it.

jlay wrote:What? You are totally jumping to conclusions. I am not saying that. Israel was to be the messenger. They were to be the city on the hill. They were to reveal the Messiah to all nations. They didn't.

Yes but that doesn't mean that God is finished with them yet either. Please read again Romans 4:16 and Romans 11:1-10.

jlay wrote:Where in the world have I said that God is finished with Israel? Either point that out, or please stop accusing me of this. I will say that "Israel" has no role in the mystery program. Paul clearly states that there is NO difference between Jew or Gentile. (1 Cor 12:13) ‘For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.’

We disagree with the formation of Israel.. Because Israel clearly still does have a role to play in this world.. Be careful. Also Luke 15:11-32 clearly demonstrates it too.. The elder obedient son being Israel.

Maybe we got off on the wrong foot.. I believe this all started when you stated that the formation of Israel was not a supernatural event. With that I disagree..

I understand. But, please explain how it meets the requirements for supernatural.

I disagree.. When I mean they share a central message, that is the central message of salvation via grace. They were both identical in that respect. God simply isn't going to say that you have to work for your salvation to one people in the OT then totally flip it and say now it's salvation by grace to another people in the NT. That would be deceiving.. Of course God wouldn't do that, and the verses I shared with you prove that.

I'm just sure how you can say that. I would agree that salvation by grace was God's plan all along, and that it was available all along. It just simply isn't taught that way in the old testament.
God had a program for Israel. And that is what the OT is about. It was most certainly based on the Law and keeping it. If you notice how harsh the judgments are upon disobedience. Man killed for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. (Numbers) A whole family stoned to death for stealing plunder. (Joshua) The entire world destroyed by flood. Cities wiped out. The gospel of grace, although available, was not the program or the message. Yes, there are hints and a foreshadowing of it from the prophets. Paul gives lengthy discourses explaining the shift, particularly in Romans and Galatians. If there wasn't a new message, then the bible has to be one of the most confusing things ever compiled. It is clearly evident even to the simplest mind that God is operating under a different program in Genesis-Malachi, even up through the gospels, than what we see when we get to Paul's letters.

John 4:22 states that salvation is clearly of the Jews not gentiles. If so, then they totally haven't misunderstood it.

Yes, do you understand what is being said here? Salvation is OF/FROM the Jews. This is referring to the Kingdom program in how the Messiah would be revealed to the world. Israel rejected that offer, and so the mystery program was made manifest. Paul was chosen as the apostle to administer this program. And this is the one we operate under today.

Yes but that doesn't mean that God is finished with them yet either.

I'm going to say this one last time. I agree. I too believe He is not finished with Israel.

jlay wrote:
I understand. But, please explain how it meets the requirements for supernatural.

Because God still needs to fulfill His promises on account of the patriarchs.. Read Genesis 15:18, Joshua 1:4 , 2 Chron 33:7 and 1 Kings 9:3. He hasn't forgotten Israel. Period.

You've been stating that God still has a plan for the Jews. If so, then why not the re-birth of Israel? 500 years before Christ came on the scene, Ezekiel wrote of a time when Israel would be restored to their land. And that he would put His Holy Spirit within his people. Not in Japan, not America, not Africa. Israel...

Ezekiel 36:22-24

22 “Therefore say to the Israelites, ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: It is not for your sake, people of Israel, that I am going to do these things, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you have gone. 23 I will show the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Sovereign LORD, when I am proved holy through you before their eyes.

24 “‘For I will take you out of the nations; I will gather you from all the countries and bring you back into your own land.

Ezekiel 37:11-14

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’”

Acts 15:13-17

13 When they finished, James spoke up. “Brothers,” he said, “listen to me. 14 Simon[a] has described to us how God first intervened to choose a people for his name from the Gentiles. 15 The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:

16 “‘After this I will return
and rebuild David’s fallen tent.
Its ruins I will rebuild,
and I will restore it,
17 that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
even all the Gentiles who bear my name,
says the Lord, who does these things’

Amos 9:8-12

8 “Surely the eyes of the Sovereign LORD
are on the sinful kingdom.
I will destroy it
from the face of the earth.
Yet I will not totally destroy
the descendants of Jacob (Israel),”
declares the LORD.
9 “For I will give the command,
and I will shake the people of Israel
among all the nations
as grain is shaken in a sieve,
and not a pebble will reach the ground.
10 All the sinners among my people
will die by the sword,
all those who say,
‘Disaster will not overtake or meet us.’
Israel’s Restoration
11 “In that day

I will restore David’s fallen shelter—
I will repair its broken walls
and restore its ruins—
and will rebuild it as it used to be,
12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom
and all the nations that bear my name,[a]”
declares the LORD, who will do these things.

Luke 21:24

24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Again.. God has given Israel only a temporary blindness.. God is still in the process of grafting His people back into the fold.

Romans 11:23-24

23 And if they (Israel) do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you (gentiles) were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

jlay wrote:I'm just sure how you can say that. I would agree that salvation by grace was God's plan all along, and that it was available all along. It just simply isn't taught that way in the old testament.

It's there as I have shown.. It's just that the Old Covenant showed Israel, and showed mankind, that we are incapable of following God’s laws to the perfection that He requires. We are obedient to Him because we love Him. Not that our obedience saves us, it's done out of gratitude.. That is clear in the OT scriptures as well..

jlay wrote:God had a program for Israel. And that is what the OT is about. It was most certainly based on the Law and keeping it. If you notice how harsh the judgments are upon disobedience. Man killed for gathering sticks on the Sabbath. (Numbers) A whole family stoned to death for stealing plunder. (Joshua) The entire world destroyed by flood. Cities wiped out. The gospel of grace, although available, was not the program or the message. Yes, there are hints and a foreshadowing of it from the prophets. Paul gives lengthy discourses explaining the shift, particularly in Romans and Galatians. If there wasn't a new message, then the bible has to be one of the most confusing things ever compiled. It is clearly evident even to the simplest mind that God is operating under a different program in Genesis-Malachi, even up through the gospels, than what we see when we get to Paul's letters.

It was most certainly based on the Law and keeping it? So are you saying that a Christian is someone who continually disobeys God? We have no laws? We must freely choose to love and obey God with our whole hearts and minds. That certainly hasn't changed from the OT to the NT.

Again read Romans 4:16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to ALL Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

Yes, do you understand what is being said here? Salvation is OF/FROM the Jews. This is referring to the Kingdom program in how the Messiah would be revealed to the world. Israel rejected that offer, and so the mystery program was made manifest. Paul was chosen as the apostle to administer this program. And this is the one we operate under today.

The mystery was NOT the plan of salvation itself although the message of grace was augmented.. It was who it was directed too.. That the gentiles would be grafted into the tree.. But guess what? The Israelis became stubborn about this and BLINDED themselves to the gospel. But do you think that is going to derail God's plan for them forever? The promises He made to them? NO... God is also a God of second chances, that is why he is still in the process of grafting them in. The messianic Jewish groups are now flourishing in Israel and number between 6 to 7 thousand. Just 20 years ago that was unheard of. God is slowly changing their hearts.. Get it now?

jlay wrote:I'm going to say this one last time. I agree. I too believe He is not finished with Israel.

Yes but I believe you have missed the point of the recent formation of Israel.. Israel's rejection is NOT complete yet..

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant (of Jews) chosen by grace.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Paul gives a stern warning to the Gentile Christians of the danger of repeating the sin of the Jews. That is the boasting of their privileged position with God. Read Romans 11: 18-21. Again be careful...

You've been stating that God still has a plan for the Jews. If so, then why not the re-birth of Israel? 500 years before Christ came on the scene, Ezekiel wrote of a time when Israel would be restored to their land. And that he would put His Holy Spirit within his people. Not in Japan, not America, not Africa. Israel...

That is not the question. The question is, what proof is that this is supernatural? God works in nature.
Supernatural would be raising a dead person to life, or healing a sickness. Something that defies nature. It may be providential. It also may be the workings of man. Could God's hand of providence be in it? Sure. I've said that from the beginning. I've never said it is or isn't. You are the one making definitive claims that THIS IS it. If you are claiming this to be supernatural, then I would see the burden of proof being on you to prove such.
There are two issues here. Is Israel's nationhood a sign of the tmes? And, is the 'message' throughout the bible the same? I've just addressed the firt.Secondly, there are many messages in the bible. God has operated in mankind under different dispensations. And yes, they are different, with different messages to different peoples.

Regarding the other verses. I am not sure why you are quoting these verses and just how you think they support the issue we are discussing. Just pasting in verses doesn't make for a proper argument. I guess I could go through each verse, but I really don't see the point. I'll tackle a few.

Deuteronomy 7:7-9 The LORD did not set his affection on you (Israel)and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8 But it was because the LORD loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9 Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

So, what is your point is sighting this verse. Which of the two questions are you referencing in this verse, and how does it specifically address the question?

{quote]1 Samuel 15:22, "Then Samuel said: ‘Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams.’ "
[/quote]
Great verse. But please explain what it has do to with what we are discussing. God would rather His people obey, than to break the law and offer sacrifices. Yep, I understand. What does this have to do with what we are discussing?

The mystery was NOT the plan of salvation itself.. It was who it was directed too.. That the gentiles would be grafted into the tree.. But guess what? The Israelis became stubborn about this and BLINDED themselves to the gospel. But do you think that is going to derail God's plan for them forever? The promises He made to them? NO... God is also a God of second chances, that is why he is still in the process of grafting them in. The messianic Jewish groups are now flourishing in Israel and number between 6 to 7 thousand. Just 20 years ago that was unheard of. God is slowly changing their hearts.. Get it now?

Question: Is the gospel, the plan of salvation? Is there more than one Gospel presented?
Do you understand the difference in the gospel the disciples preached during Christ's earthly ministry, and after His ascension, verses the gospel that Paul preached? Messianic Jews )today) are coming to Christ under the mystery program. The one that makes no difference between Jew and gentile, slave or free. This is not THE plan for Israel. This is a plan for all. Up until Paul's program was revealed, Jewish believers were still preaching for Israel to repent, and were still following the OT covenant. Peter on the day of Pentecost did not preach Jesus as the sacrifice, the atonement, the propitiation of sin, or the giver of grace to all men. He preached Him as the Messiah, the Christ for Israel. The one who would sit on the throne of David. Read Acts 2 and see how different Peter's message is from Paul's. He specifies multiple times that His message is to the Jews, to Israel. It is a message of salvation. But it is a different program for sure.

The mystery (Paul's Gospel) is the plan of salvation we operate under today. This is why there is so much controversy with Paul's program in Acts. This is why God reveals this plan to Peter, not while He was on earth, but after Israel had rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom. The encounter between Peter and Cornelius happened seven to 10 years after the ascension.
I have a great friend who is a Jewish believer. He is not following the Kingdom program preached in Matthew. He is following the program revealed to Paul.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant (of Jews) chosen by grace.
What does a remnant indicate? Do you understand the context of Romans? When it was written? Why it was written?
Romans was written around 57 a.d. about 24 years after the day of Pentecost. Peter's program went from 3,000 converts in a day, and adding daily, to being completely run out of Israel and now just a remnant being referred to.

Yes but I believe you have missed the point of the recent formation of Israel.. Israel's rejection is NOT complete yet..

Can you elaborate on what you are saying here. "Israel's rejection is not complete yet?"

jlay wrote: That is not the question. The question is, what proof is that this is supernatural? God works in nature.

No kidding... I have showed you the verses that pertain it to be a supernatural event. Question. Where is YOUR proof that Israel is not a supernatural event?

jlay wrote:Supernatural would be raising a dead person to life, or healing a sickness. Something that defies nature. It may be providential. It also may be the workings of man. Could God's hand of providence be in it? Sure. I've said that from the beginning. I've never said it is or isn't. You are the one making definitive claims that THIS IS it. If you are claiming this to be supernatural, then I would see the burden of proof being on you to prove such.

No J... Now you are changing your words.. Becuase before you stated, "It is most definately NOT a supernatural event." Now you are saying that you never said it is or isn't. You are just playing with me...

I have shown you verses that is was a supernatural event..

Ezekiel 37:11-14 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the LORD, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the LORD have spoken, and I have done it, declares the LORD.’”

jlay wrote:There are two issues here. Is Israel's nationhood a sign of the tmes? And, is the 'message' throughout the bible the same? I've just addressed the firt.Secondly, there are many messages in the bible. God has operated in mankind under different dispensations. And yes, they are different, with different messages to different peoples.

No they are not different messages.. You have shown nothing to support that view.. Nothing. Also how does that exempt the nation of Israel being reborn?

jlay wrote:Regarding the other verses. I am not sure why you are quoting these verses and just how you think they support the issue we are discussing. Just pasting in verses doesn't make for a proper argument. I guess I could go through each verse, but I really don't see the point. I'll tackle a few.

Then why use the Bible at all?? Why are you here Jlay? To express your personal views?

jlay wrote:So, what is your point is sighting this verse. Which of the two questions are you referencing in this verse, and how does it specifically address the question?

That the message of grace was being applied to His people plain and simple..

jlay wrote:Great verse. But please explain what it has do to with what we are discussing. God would rather His people obey, than to break the law and offer sacrifices. Yep, I understand. What does this have to do with what we are discussing?

Again your claim is that God is teaching two separate Gospels.. A gospel of works in the OT then God completely changing his format and then says it is by grace in the NT. A deceiving God.

jlay wrote:Question: Is the gospel, the plan of salvation? Is there more than one Gospel presented?

You believe that God has two different plans of salvation... Not me. Where are you getting this information?

jlay wrote:Do you understand the difference in the gospel the disciples preached during Christ's earthly ministry, and after His ascension, verses the gospel that Paul preached?

That was after the day of Pentecost, but the message hasn't changed, it was simply amplified.

jlay wrote:Messianic Jews )today) are coming to Christ under the mystery program. The one that makes no difference between Jew and gentile, slave or free. This is not THE plan for Israel. This is a plan for all. Up until Paul's program was revealed, Jewish believers were still preaching for Israel to repent, and were still following the OT covenant. Peter on the day of Pentecost did not preach Jesus as the sacrifice, the atonement, the propitiation of sin, or the giver of grace to all men. He preached Him as the Messiah, the Christ for Israel. The one who would sit on the throne of David. Read Acts 2 and see how different Peter's message is from Paul's. He specifies multiple times that His message is to the Jews, to Israel. It is a message of salvation. But it is a different program for sure.

Huh? God's message is for the Jews but is it a different program?

jlay wrote:The mystery (Paul's Gospel) is the plan of salvation we operate under today. This is why there is so much controversy with Paul's program in Acts. This is why God reveals this plan to Peter, not while He was on earth, but after Israel had rejected the Gospel of the Kingdom. The encounter between Peter and Cornelius happened seven to 10 years after the ascension.

Again.. Israel has not totally rejected Him yet. It's only a temporary blindness until the fullness of the gentiles is fulfilled.

jlay wrote:I have a great friend who is a Jewish believer. He is not following the Kingdom program preached in Matthew. He is following the program revealed to Paul.

Romans 11:5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant (of Jews) chosen by grace.
What does a remnant indicate? Do you understand the context of Romans? When it was written? Why it was written?
Romans was written around 57 a.d. about 24 years after the day of Pentecost. Peter's program went from 3,000 converts in a day, and adding daily, to being completely run out of Israel and now just a remnant being referred to.

Do you understand the context of Romans? When it was written? Why it was written? I don't think so.. Ok.. And where does the Bible say when the remnant was run out?

jlay wrote:Can you elaborate on what you are saying here. "Israel's rejection is not complete yet?"

Romans 11:25 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Are you claiming that full number of the Gentiles has come in?? When?

Gman,

I really don't want to get personal, which there might be hints of.

No kidding... I have showed you the verses that pertain it to be a supernatural event. Question. Where is YOUR proof that Israel is not a supernatural event?

The scriptures only show that God has a plan for Israel. You and I obviously agree on this. If you are not going to use any guidelines of properly defining 'supernatural' then I'm going to move on.

"It is most definately NOT a supernatural event." Now you are saying that you never said it is or isn't. You are just playing with me...

No sir. I believe the events in Israel may relate to the plan of God restroring His final Kingdom. There is nothing supernatural about man made laws giving over real estate to a group of people. This is a 100% natural event. Do you have any evidence otherwise?

Ezekiel was written during the Babylonian captivity around 600 B.C., explaining that the Jewish captivity would come to an end. It did.

No they are not different messages.. You have shown nothing to support that view.. Nothing. Also how does that exempt the nation of Israel being reborn?

It doesn't exempt Israel from being reborn. If you had taken the time to read my last post, I specifically said there are TWO issues being discussed here, and I then took the time to break those two issues down.

I've shown ample scripture and evidence to show there are two disticnt messages. Paul's letter to the Ephesians ought to be enough.

Then why use the Bible at all?? Why are you here Jlay? To express your personal views?

That is just amature plain and simple. I'm here to discuss the topic, plain and simple. And of course my personal views come in to it, as do yours. My personal theology is a dispensational view.

Again your claim is that God is teaching two separate Gospels.. A gospel of works in the OT then God completely changing his format and then says it is by grace in the NT. A deceiving God.

That is preposterous. The Bible speaks for itself. It is very apparent that we have two very different theologies regarding this matter. God has chosen by His own pleasure the ways in which He reveals Himself. It was His will and His good pleasure to choose Israel out of all the people's on earth. Gospel simply means good news. And Paul is pretty clear that what has been revealed to Him was something that is NEW, and was not known beforehand. And is also clear that anyone preaching another gospel, different than the one he preached is accursed. (Gal 1:8)

That was after the day of Pentecost, but the message hasn't changed, it was simply amplified.

Then why does Paul say it was hidden, a secret, and not revealed to him by man?

jlay wrote: The scriptures only show that God has a plan for Israel. You and I obviously agree on this. If you are not going to use any guidelines of properly defining 'supernatural' then I'm going to move on.

I have and God is a part of that supernatural event.

jlay wrote:No sir. I believe the events in Israel may relate to the plan of God restroring His final Kingdom. There is nothing supernatural about man made laws giving over real estate to a group of people. This is a 100% natural event. Do you have any evidence otherwise?

100% natural events can be spiritually induced.. Time and time again the Bible reveals physical events and the spiritual significances behind them.

jlay wrote:Ezekiel was written during the Babylonian captivity around 600 B.C., explaining that the Jewish captivity would come to an end. It did.

Not exactly.. The Babylonian captivity consisted of three deportations of Jews to Babylon. The first, in 597 BCE, a second in 587 BCE, and the last at 538 BCE where some of the Jews returned to Israel. Ezekiel certainly wrote during this time but it certainly didn't pertain to that restoration of the Babylonian captivity if that is what you mean. Ezekiel 37:11-14 refers to an apocalyptic time when God would bring his people back from the graves back to the land of Israel where he would put his spirit back into them again. For how long? Forever... Read the next verses in 25-28.

Ezekiel 37:25-28 They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28 Then the nations will know that I the LORD make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’”

This event clearly hasn't happened yet because in 70AD they were deported again.. But believe me, they will all be restored again and will live in the land of Israel again as prophesied.... Back from a 2 thousand year old grave. And we are seeing it happen today..

jlay wrote:It doesn't exempt Israel from being reborn. If you had taken the time to read my last post, I specifically said there are TWO issues being discussed here, and I then took the time to break those two issues down.

I've shown ample scripture and evidence to show there are two disticnt messages. Paul's letter to the Ephesians ought to be enough.

And scripture shows clearly that the Jews pursued God's grace through works and NOT by faith as they should have.. God did not deceive them.. The Jews deceived themselves.

Romans 9:30-32
30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

jlay wrote:That is just amature plain and simple. I'm here to discuss the topic, plain and simple. And of course my personal views come in to it, as do yours. My personal theology is a dispensational view.

Yes.. That obviously is evident.. But you are not considering all scripture.

jlay wrote:That is preposterous. The Bible speaks for itself. It is very apparent that we have two very different theologies regarding this matter. God has chosen by His own pleasure the ways in which He reveals Himself. It was His will and His good pleasure to choose Israel out of all the people's on earth. Gospel simply means good news. And Paul is pretty clear that what has been revealed to Him was something that is NEW, and was not known beforehand. And is also clear that anyone preaching another gospel, different than the one he preached is accursed. (Gal 1:8)

Again, I would argue that the messages are exactly the same. The only real NEW thing you could argue is that the Gentiles would now be excepted into the fold. But the message is the same as God never changes either..

jlay wrote:Then why does Paul say it was hidden, a secret, and not revealed to him by man?

Not the message of salvation via grace, as it was wrongly interpreted by the Jews, but that the gentiles would be fellow heirs to the kingdom of God along WITH the Jews.. Not separate..

100% natural events can be spiritually induced.. Time and time again the Bible reveals physical events and the spiritual significances behind them

And I would calle this divine providence. That is God working His plan into the natural order of things. I tend, as many do to reserve the term 'supernatural' for things that obviously demonstrate something that can not be explained by natural means. Thus SUPERnatural. Either way, it appears we are arguing semantics on one hand. And we are arguing current events on the other. Like I said, the recent developments in Israel may very well play into the return of Israel.

Regarding Ezekiel. God's promises are always forever. The caveat, is that in a covenant it takes two to tango. Israel never had to be exiled or conquered. Had they kept their part of the covenant (works of obedience) they would have been saved, forever. (I'm not using saved here as one's personal salvation.)

And yes, I do believe that Ezekiel does forshadow the coming of the Messiah, and His rule as King. Of course we know without a doubt that this is NOT happening today. The political state of Israel does not recognize Jesus as its Messiah. So, Israel may be a political state, but I don't see that it is the establishment of the Isreal in the scriptures.

And scripture shows clearly that the Jews pursued God's grace through works and NOT by faith as they should have.. God did not deceive them.. The Jews deceived themselves.

Yes, this is exactly what I've been talking about. Paul is talking about the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. When the Messiah came, He would implement a new covenant with Israel. Just as Paul says, they refused to beleive, and so that program was put on hold, the mystery program came into effect and that is where we are today.

Yes.. That obviously is evident.. But you are not considering all scripture.

When studying the whole counsel of God, we must, as Paul told Timothy, "rightly divide the Word of truth." (2 Tim 2:15)

Again, I would argue that the messages are exactly the same. The only real NEW thing you could argue is that the Gentiles would now be excepted into the fold. But the message is the same as God never changes either..

But that is not new. The promises of God in the OT said that when the Messiah came, Israel would be the city on the hill that would lead ALL nations to God. Gentile simply means nations.

"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." Isaiah 49:6

The fact that the gentiles would be included was not the mystery. The mystery was HOW the gentiles would be included. The mystery was the Gospel that was given to Paul because of Israel's rejection of its own Gospel.

Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas (Speaking to the Jews) answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us (Israel):
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

If Israel had received the Messiah, there would not be a need for an apostle Paul. The throne of David would have been established and Israel would evangelize the world, just as Isaiah prophesied. Israel rejected this message. And so God revealed a hidden message. One that was secret, that Paul received by direct revelation from God. That he would be the apostle to the Gentiles. And that the Gentiles would have direct access to salvation by faith in Christ.

jlay wrote: And I would calle this divine providence. That is God working His plan into the natural order of things. I tend, as many do to reserve the term 'supernatural' for things that obviously demonstrate something that can not be explained by natural means. Thus SUPERnatural. Either way, it appears we are arguing semantics on one hand. And we are arguing current events on the other. Like I said, the recent developments in Israel may very well play into the return of Israel.

Ok.. The way I see supernatural could be either way. Meaning physical, like Jesus healing a blind man, or spiritual, God's divine plan for salvation.. Etc..

jlay wrote:Regarding Ezekiel. God's promises are always forever. The caveat, is that in a covenant it takes two to tango. Israel never had to be exiled or conquered. Had they kept their part of the covenant (works of obedience) they would have been saved, forever. (I'm not using saved here as one's personal salvation.)

And yes, I do believe that Ezekiel does forshadow the coming of the Messiah, and His rule as King. Of course we know without a doubt that this is NOT happening today. The political state of Israel does not recognize Jesus as its Messiah. So, Israel may be a political state, but I don't see that it is the establishment of the Isreal in the scriptures.

Like I was saying before.. That could all change too. When the fullness of the gentiles comes. The messianic Jews are starting to spread there.. Jesus could reappear, etc... We just don't know. But to say that the door is closed on the Jews, is, IMO a very dangerous thing to imply. We do not always know the mind of God..

jlay wrote:Yes, this is exactly what I've been talking about. Paul is talking about the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. When the Messiah came, He would implement a new covenant with Israel. Just as Paul says, they refused to beleive, and so that program was put on hold, the mystery program came into effect and that is where we are today.

Yes, but my argument is not a total one either.. Romans 11:5 Tells us there is a remnant (of Jews) chosen by grace. If so, they haven't totally missed the mark. They are still making baby steps towards salvation.

jlay wrote:When studying the whole counsel of God, we must, as Paul told Timothy, "rightly divide the Word of truth." (2 Tim 2:14)

Yes... Hopefully we are doing that.

jlay wrote:But that is not new. The promises of God in the OT said that when the Messiah came, Israel would be the city on the hill that would lead ALL nations to God. Gentile simply means nations.

"It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth." Isaiah 49:6

I forgot about that one... That is awesome. Thank you.

jlay wrote:The fact that the gentiles would be included was not the mystery. The mystery was HOW the gentiles would be included. The mystery was the Gospel that was given to Paul because of Israel's rejection of its own Gospel.

Acts 13:46-48 Then Paul and Barnabas (Speaking to the Jews) answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles. For this is what the Lord has commanded us (Israel):
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

If Israel had received the Messiah, there would not be a need for an apostle Paul. The throne of David would have been established and Israel would evangelize the world, just as Isaiah prophesied. Israel rejected this message. And so God revealed a hidden message. One that was secret, that Paul received by direct revelation from God. That he would be the apostle to the Gentiles. And that the Gentiles would have direct access to salvation by faith in Christ.

Very well.. You could argue HOW the gentiles would be included and well as HOW God's message of grace would be revealed clearer. A better understanding of how those pieces of the puzzle fit. Just not different.. I hate that word. That would make sense to me.

Cheers.

These verses sum it up very well IMO... God still is very much attracted to His own people.

Romans 3

God’s Faithfulness

1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.

3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar. As it is written:

“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

No One Is Righteous

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

On top of this, according to Romans, the Gentiles still owe something to the Jews.

Romans 15:27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings.

I find it very interesting that Israel increased in population of immigrants of over 19,000 Jews in 2010. An increase of 16% over 2009.. WOW.

God, I believe, is CERTAINLY calling the Jews (His people) back to their homeland. Very very power stuff..

http://www.jafi.org.il/JewishAgency/Eng ... /dec28.htm

December 28, 2010 / 21 Tevet 5771

The year 2010 will end with a 16% increase in the number of new immigrants to Israel.

More than 19,000 olim chose to make their home in Israel.

There are significant increases in the numbers of olim from Latin America, Belgium, Australia and New Zealand, Switzerland and even India.

According to figures from the Jewish Agency and the Ministry of Immigrant Absorption, the year 2010 is expected to end with a 16% increase in the number of new immigrants. This is the second year in a row showing an increase in the number of new immigrants, following 10 years of declining numbers. By the end of December, the total number of olim this year from around the world will have reached 19,130. The total number in 2009 was 16,465 and in 2008 – 15,452.

Around 7,700 new immigrants, making up 40% of the total number of olim this year, came from the FSU (Former Soviet Union), eastern Europe and Germany, as opposed to 7,133 last year (an increase of 8%). From North America, the number stands at 3,980, as compared to 3,767 last year (a 6% rise). The number of olim from Latin America is to reach 1,470, compared to 1,200 last year – this is a significant rise of 19%; France: 2,040 as opposed to 1,894 last year (8% increase); Great Britain: 760 (down from 853 last year). From Ethiopia the number stands at 1,650, the rate of immigration from there being set by the government; the number last year stood at 240.

Despite the improving economic situation in the FSU, there was an increase of 7% in the number of olim from this area from 2009, and an increase of 25% from 2008. By the end of 2010 there will have been 7,300 new immigrants from the FSU as opposed to 6,820 last year and 5,880 in 2008. There will be more than 1,000 new immigrants from Moscow this year, the 7th year in a row there is such a level of aliyah from the Russian capital.

A clear rise this year is seen in the numbers of olim from: Australia and New Zealand – 260 as opposed to 175 last year (48% rise); Belgium – 250 compared to 152 last year (a 63% increase),; Switzerland: 120 as opposed to 94 last year (30% rise); Italy – 110 compared to 89 (25% increase); India -- 48 compared to 30 last year (a 60% increase).

The country where we can see the most significant increase in aliyah numbers is Venezuela: 150 new immigrants came this year as opposed to 38 in 2009. This is an increase of 280%. Increased aliyah is also seen from Argentina (380 this year, 313 last year), Mexico (180 this year as opposed to 140 last year) and Peru (140 this year compared to 105 in 2009).

New immigrants also came this year from: China (10), Monaco (4), Japan (3), Hong Kong (3), Honduras 93), Malawi (2) and Guadeloupe (2). Only one new immigrant came from the group of countries Malta, Singapore, Korea, Kenya and Rwanda.

Also emerging from the statistics of the Absorption Ministry and the Jewish Agency is that 52.3% of the new immigrants are male and 47.7% female. Jerusalem is the leading city of absorption, with 2,397 new immigrants. The most plentiful month in terms of aliyah was July, during which 2,293 new immigrants arrived.

The average age of the immigrants stands at 29.75. The age of the oldest new immigrant to Israel in the year 2010 is 99.