Evidence for God from Science

I mean how you fit them into your philosophical framework. If there are people who hear the gospel, but never hear any convincing reasons to believe it, how can they be blamed for not believing?

Note that the vast majority of people who walked the planet earth fit in this category.

I see that as a contradicting statement. The gospel is convincing. If someone has heard a non convincing gospel then they haven't heard THE gospel.
I don't think anyone will be blamed for not believing what they never had a chance to believe in.
Let's look at John 3:18
He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Now, there are a couple of ways of looking at this verse. Some might take it to say that this indicates people who hear and reject, not people who are ignorant of the gospel. But you could also take this to mean that people ignorant of the gospel will be judged "already," not because they failed to hear the gospel, but because they are wicked sinners, and will be judged accordingly.

Again, I acknowledged that there are a few exceptions to this. But so what? There are also Christians who convert to other religions all the time. And in most cases, this is because they genuinely find the reasons for believing them more persuasive.

OK, so what is your point? I would agree that people convert. People are persuaded by all kinds of lies. In fact, the scriptures warn us of this very thing. I'm not sure what it has to do with the topic, or just what your point is here.

As for "mystery of God", I have no inherent problem with that, believe that if it makes you feel better. But in my opinion it is essentially a lazy excuse to justify believing in propositions that contradict one another.

Smiley, this is the problem most have with you here. Does the bible teach us about mystery? Does the bible teach us that many of the ways of God are beyond our comprehension? Yes or no? Don't just call people lazy. Show us where the correct answer lies. Don't just tell someone they are wrong, lazy, stupid, etc. Break it down. If you refuse to do that, then you are not engaging in honest discussion.

Are you implying some kind of universalism here? If not, I have no idea what your point is.

The point is that the bible on more than one occassion says that people from EVERY tribe, nation and tongue are purchased. I do believe in universal redemption because the bible teaches it. I do not believe in universal salvation. Why? Because of what the bible teaches.

"After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands." Rev. 7:9
Who is before the throne? A vast multitude. From where? ....................

When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. (Matt 8:10-11).

And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. (Matt 24:31)

It is comments like this that show your hand...

smiley wrote:As for "mystery of God", I have no inherent problem with that, believe that if it makes you feel better. But in my opinion it is essentially a lazy excuse to justify believing in propositions that contradict one another.

Comments like this cause myself and others to have asked - are you really a Christian? Can you give us your testimony?
A Tree is known by its fruit.

You are either and 'been burned Christian' with an axe to grind

Someone who does not believe anymore in the Christian message and just wants to be brother Sandpaper...

Someone who sings - "A Friend of the devil is a friend of mine..."

Or maybe someone who believes that it is best that everyone just forgoets religion, inhale helium and just sing Alvin and the Chipmunk happy songs together, so that the world would be a happier place!

A Christian who says He is a Christian then always acts insolent toward what Christian’s believe is someone usually burned by somebody in their past or a false brother themselves seeking to shipwreck and destroy people who are young in the faith - faith and if so, it is time for you to go…

It would be nice for you to come out and be honest with us. We might be able to help you get over whatever causes such snide insolent to reside deep within your heart.

Well, pat yourself on the back for proving Christians, as unchristian - toward you –

if that is your game – you have failed.

We have tolerated your impertinence and even seek for you to open up and help you overcome your hurts. So far you reject all offers. One New Atheist’s Leader admits that he was molested by a Church official – with that we can understand his remarks better and offer to help him over come. So far, He rejected these offers as far as I can tell – he has cancer now… We can Pray for him and try to help the hurt heal before he is ushered into eternity.

You may have suffered at the hands of false brethren too in various ways or maybe family members betrayed you, denied you money, whatever…

Your tone and chides show someone with a lot of emotional baggage crying out for help then slapping the help away just to prove “see they are so unchristian to leave me”…

Well we will leave you all alone, left in the mire, or help uncover the hurt within...and let the healing begin… that choice is up to you...

Or are you are just playing games – at least be honest
-
-
-

FWIW, I think Smiley is a Christian. I think he has an axe to grind as he disagrees with a lot of the explanations the main page of the board provides for several issues. I disagree with many of them as well. However, I've yet to see him come out in love and provide his position or offer clear explanations of his theology. I've mainly just seen critisism with no alternative, corrections, or explanation.

smiley wrote:

jlay wrote:And this just makes the whole argument from Divine Hiddenness so much more difficult to resolve. . .

A good place to start would be John 8. The woman in this account encountered Jesus and His mercy which was previous to his instruction to "go and sin no more". Jesus had the right by his own words to cast the first stone, but showed mercy instead. There is a far greater indication through His acts of creation and redemption that God favors life; and indeed through the account of salvation of this woman through little more than "bumping into" Jesus - yet she called Him Lord. This illustrates that every encounter with God, no matter how seemingly small, is in fact huge, and sufficient to approach or reject a relationship. Never assume who is family with God and who is not.

Contrast this with those who are pickled in the gospel and reject God - one might do well to be more concerned with these than those who somehow seem to be culturally disconnected from a universal God.

- Nathan