Immortality - Conditional or Not ?

[Sudsy]

So Sudsy, I see you just brush off everything I put forth so easily and not willing to even to discuss and explore. You seem to know all things and will not even bother to investigate to see if what I posted is bible based on truth or not. So I'll post what I posted on your other thread in response to you here:

I think the readers can judge for themselves whether or not I have brushed off everything you put forth. I have not indicated that your arguments are not 'bible based' but you do not accept that they are your interpretations of what the bible says. You are suggesting to me that being in the 'image of God' for you also includes being all-knowing. Some of us just don't think that is true. I understand your line of reasoning and how you interpret scriptures to make your conclusions. I just don't agree with all of them and am not alone in this. These blanket statements you make about my involvement are not true and really I think you need to apologize for making them when you know they are not true.

[B. W.]

So Sudsy, I see you just brush off everything I put forth so easily and not willing to even to discuss and explore. You seem to know all things and will not even bother to investigate to see if what I posted is bible based on truth or not. So I'll post what I posted on your other thread in response to you here:

I think the readers can judge for themselves whether or not I have brushed off everything you put forth. I have not indicated that your arguments are not 'bible based' but you do not accept that they are your interpretations of what the bible says. You are suggesting to me that being in the 'image of God' for you also includes being all-knowing. Some of us just don't think that is true. I understand your line of reasoning and how you interpret scriptures to make your conclusions. I just don't agree with all of them and am not alone in this. These blanket statements you make about my involvement are not true and really I think you need to apologize for making them when you know they are not true.

No Sudsy, I do not give scripture and the principles revealed from the Bible private interpretations. I do no change word meanings, nor say this is what Jesus meant to have said or Jesus did not mean that, as traditional annihilationism repeatedly pontificates.

You are correct – The readers can judge for themselves. So be it as it is written:

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Gen 1:26, 28a, Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth….28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Luke 20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, "Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:

Ec 3:11-14 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….

Ec 3:14-15 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past

Ec 3:16, 17a, Moreover I saw under the sun: In the place of judgment, Wickedness was there; And in the place of righteousness, Iniquity was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Ec 3:18, 19, 20a, I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ec 3:21, 22a Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

2 Sa 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life

Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

1 Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

1Sa 2:6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.

Isa 26:19 Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jer 20:11 But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten.

Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.'"

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Job 19:25, 26a, For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,

Jer 9:24 But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the LORD.

All Bible quotes from the NKJV

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[Sudsy]

And yet not one verse proves immortality for everyone. The very selection of verses is proof that you do have a private interpretation. Your biblical worldview is revealed in your selections. Most scholars I have read would admit this but not you.

I think you will be in for some big surprises someday when you find out that God is not the God that you have made Him out to be. And, regardless of how you have portrayed Him, I still believe His mercy endureth forever and He will not hold this against you.

But in case you might someday take an interest in opening up your considerations on this topic, here is another link with an explanation on where your views may have originated - http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/jesus ... nhell.html

Did Jesus teach what you are suggesting in your interpretations - not in my view, far from it. The God of the scriptures is not into torturing anyone with endless torment. How opposite is this to the God revealed to us in Jesus. Jesus, full of compassion, mercy and a true friend of sinners. The one who said - Father forgive them, for they know not what they do. Jesus did give warnings but never warned of unending torment. Such a sad mis-representation of our God.

But regardless you are entitled to your view, as am I, and others.

[B. W.]

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Next, in the Link provided in the above post provides more evidence of the great lengths traditional annihilationism goes to in order to change the meaning of biblical text. Does not such wrangling in and of itself demonstrate privet interpretations – you tell me?

Annihilationist boldly proclaim that no-where in the entire bible does it even dare hint that God designed human beings to live eternally with him forever beginning with Adam and Eve as well as all their progeny beyond. Yet, there are indeed ample verses and places that the bible does reveal that He designed humanity as eternal beings. Despite this evidence, hyper annihilationist continue to shrillingly threaten anyone that dares disagree with them through use of these bible texts are guilty of the crime of privet interpretations. Only annihilationists are capable of discerning the truth and all must run to them, or face public humiliation used to shame opponents into submission.

What can one do against such unjust and malignant shouts that seek to divide and cause strife between fellow Christians (note last sentence of article linked for evidence of this)? Does not the bible tell us that where strife is, so is every evil work and such is not of God? Only thing to do then is to simply post the scriptures themselves and let the reader decide.

Therefore, what does the text say to the reader?

Luke 20:38, "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Isa 42:5 "Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it…"

Ec 3:11-14 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….

Context of Ec 3:11-14a directly connects to verse 14 and thus defines word translated eternity in verse 11 to mean eternity and...

Ec 3:14-15 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past

…Contextually – defines what God does shall last forever as defined as His placement of eternity in the heart of man as well as future judgment as the rest of the verses plainly indicate.

Ec 3:16, 17a, Moreover I saw under the sun: In the place of judgment, Wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, Iniquity was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Ec 3:18, 19, 20. 21a, I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Next, the bible demonstrates what principle in these next verses about God?

Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

2 Sa 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life

Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

1 Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did…

The principle from the bible is clearly outlined as God giving life to human beings just as the texts state: God gives. Now the next question arises: Does God revoke what he gives i.e. his gifts? The bible itself answers this, Therefore, What do the biblical principles from....

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

…and…

Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

…say? Answer is in Fact, a resounding NO – God does not deny what he gives

Therefore 2 Sam 14:14 is a true statement – God does not take away life…

Will God deny himself? Again the bible answers No just as it is written in:

2 Ti 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

…and…

Heb 6:18 - that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

Again read the verses above. What do they tell you? Notice, I am not telling you what they mean or how you should interpret them as the above poster’s link does and as the other annihilationist links provided also do. I am not telling you what to think but rather letting the reader actually read the above bible text an come to his/her own conclusions.

So think about this: For annihilationism to be true would mean that none of the above verses are true about God and all are in dire error about God. In other words, what God says about himself is untrue, He is not a God who does not lie, not God always stable and unchanging, not a God who keeps his word, promises or gifts.

That is enough fr now...
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[Sudsy]

Yes, we've heard these same arguments many times.

What can one do against such unjust and malignant shouts that seek to divide and cause strife between fellow Christians (note last sentence of article linked for evidence of this)? Does not the bible tell us that where strife is, so is every evil work and such is not of God?

I am not defending those of any view on this when they make 'unjust and malignant shouts' as you do the same. You create strife for those who have a different view, if they allow you to. I think Martin Luther, for example, created lots of strife when he broke with traditional views. Jesus created strife in the Pharisees over their interpretations of the same scriptures.

You don't let the scriptures speak for themselves. If you allow scriptures to speak for themselves, then you must allow all related scriptures to speak and not the ones that you select to provide a certain interpretation for what these mean. Each view, to some extent, does this to make a point and when other scriptures conflict they either ignore them or give them a special interpretation that fits the view. I think when people really go overboard is when they add things to scripture like Spurgeon and Edwards and others did in describing hell. Or when people use NDEs and dreams and visions that are not scripturally supported as such.

So think about this: For annihilationism to be true would mean that none of the above verses are true about God and all are in dire error about God. In other words, what God says about himself is untrue, He is not a God who does not lie, not God always stable and unchanging, not a God who keeps his word, promises or gifts.

And this is where you really don't understand. All of the above verses are true but it is the way you are packaging them together to make your case. Most cults can do this also. If this is what you want to believe about God, that God is 'locked into' how you interpret that He created us and therefore must torture unbelievers in endless torment for all of eternity, then you are free to do so. But giving you some of your own advice - think about that. See whether or not this conflicts with who Jesus is as a reflection of the one true God.

[B. W.]

Conditional Immortality: confusion regarding what eternal life means

Next, much of annihilationism is based on confusion by what Jesus meant by eternal life. Traditional Annihilationist’s definition for the eternal life that Jesus spoke about in John 3:15-16 is limited to mean only – endless living. However, what did Jesus really mean by the phrase – eternal life? Was he only referring to a state of mere endless living? Or something else that gives such living real value?

In fact, Jesus defines what he means by eternal life in John 17:3 as pertaining to knowing God and Himself. This definition is not limited to only endless living but includes knowing God and Christ Jesus which gives purpose and meaning for living by eternally knowing God and being known by God (note also 1 Co 8:3, Gal 4:9, Eph 3:10, Col 1:27, 1 John 4:16), reconciled.

Adam and Eve were originally designed to live forever with God. Even in their mortal bodies, they were purposed by God Himself to live eternally with God taking care of the place assigned to them with the high honor privilege of moral reasoning to aid this endeavor. With this honor comes responsibility in how one uses the free agency of moral and creative reasoning. This also proves the justice and love of God as well..

That is why God fashioned humanity according to his eternal image (Gen 1:26) so they could do so, walking with him in the cool of the day. But sin entered the world through Adam and Eve’s transgression and the mortal flesh proceeded into corruption as God said would happen if Adam did eat of the tree he would surly Die (Qal Absolute) Die (Qal Imperfect) sending the sinner into a state of banishment forever unless redeemed by God’s Right Hand.

Below is a quote from a misleading annihilationist web link which serves to illustrate what they mean by Conditional Immortality. The author merely parrots John Wenham, Charles Pennock’s definitions and views:

Conditional Immortality maintains that eternal life is not the intrinsic possession of the soul, but the gracious gift of God, "Who ONLY hath immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16). We do not receive it by our first birth in Adam, but by our second birth in the second Adam, Christ! "For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE" (1 Cor. 15:22). One must have a second birth to escape the second death. Through our first birth in Adam we inherit sin and death; through a second birth in Christ we receive the gift of righteousness and life (Rom. 5:21). The wages of sin is death, an end of life; the gift of God is endless life (Rom. 6:23). The truth of Scripture is DEATH IN ADAM - LIFE IN CHRIST! Article from brother bird article - A Summary of Conditional Immortality

Please note that we have already reviewed that Orthodox Christianity does not teach or interpret the bible according to Plato’s idea of Immortality of the Soul because human beings have a definite beginning and God has not, and thus God alone truly is only immortal, having no-beginning or end. God purposed and designed human beings as special beings He alone fashioned and purposed in such manner so that they can share eternity with God. God wills and purpose humanity to be eternal beings. We all live because He lives.

In Fact Luke writes in Acts 17:18, 19, 20, 21a that the Greek philosophers are always seeking new things from other places and blending these to fit their views. Justin Martyr in his writings stated that Moses came before Plato; therefore, it was the nature of Greek philosophy to seek new ideas from foreign sources and then blend their ideas into them just as Luke wrote of in Acts 17. Because of this, you never hear annihilationist ever consider that it was Plato who borrowed ideas from his era of the known world and twisted what he learned to fit his idea that human souls have no beginning or end, just exist floating around looking for a body to inhabit.

Therefore, Is traditional annihilationist Conditional Immortality teaching scripturally sound in and of itself as John Wenham stated on page 230 of his book Facing Hell – “God only created man potentially immortal. Immortality is a state gained by grace through faith when the believer receives eternal life and become partakers of the divine nature, immortality…”

Just note what is missing from the quoted sources and word definitions above: truth. Traditional annihilationism Conditional Immortality contends that humanity did not have eternal life by our first birth in Adam. If this is true, then Adam and Eve would have died, even if they had never sinned, being only potentially immortal. Now, When would have they died if only designed only potentially immortal had they never had sinned? The bible on the other hand states this in Romans 5:12:

“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—“ NKJV

This poses a theological contradiction for traditional annihilationism Conditional Immortality in that what Paul wrote in Romans chapter five must be absolutely untrue in order for annihilationist doctrine to be true since only potentially immortal. The above Quote and prior posters’ links are they based on Annihilationist private interpretations of package scripture or not – you tell me?-
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[Kurieuo]

B.W., Sudsy,

I stumbled across a gem I thought you guys would like.

A person with a hidden cam (?) asking William Craig about his views on Annihilationism: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaCAr5j0As. Some good Christian thinking there.

[Sudsy]

“God only created man potentially immortal. Immortality is a state gained by grace through faith when the believer receives eternal life and become partakers of the divine nature, immortality…”

Amen !

[B. W.]

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Kurieuo, Excellent little snippet from Craig; Craig uses the word relationship to express ‘knowing’ used John 17:2-3. In fact, knowing God in an intimate full knowing relationship with God and Christ is what Jesus means by eternal life. Which in fact, starts as soon as a person becomes save / sealed by the Holy Spirit, this relationship of knowing God more and more continues on - forever. That is what makes life - live. This brought in the following verses as well: as we are reconciled (Rom 5:10, 11a, Romans 8:11-21) back to God so that we may know him as it is written in Isaiah 43:10, Jeremiah 24:7, Hosea 6:6, Ephesians 4:13, Colossians 1:10, Col 2:2a, 2 Peter 1:2a

The unsaved will not have that, they are banished away from God’s presence forever – knowing only the sin and ruin they desire more than knowing God – forever. Our mortal flesh, for now is finite due solely to sin, but our spiritual being was purposed by God to be eternal. His gifts and callings are irrevocable. There will be a resurrection of the body for both saved and unsaved because such are his gifts and how much God honors his own irrevocable word. For annihilationism to be true would cause God to revoke His word.

Gen 1:26, 28a: "Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth….28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Numbers 23:19, "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Rev 21:3, "And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." 6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.

Rev 21:8, "...But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Gen 2:17, ..."but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die (Qal Absolute) - Die (Qal Imperfect)."

Note: As the first death does not led to non-being in the afterlife, neither will the second…when Dan 12:1, 2, 3 happens...

Rev 22:15, "But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie."
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[Sudsy]

This reminds me of what Katabole posted -

Let us reason shall we.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: (KJV)

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If it never even entered God's mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as sacrifices to Molech, in the very same valley that Jesus uses as a metaphor for Hell, how can any of you who believe in Hell doctrine even consider that God would burn His children alive for all eternity?

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Any of you ever witnessed the fat of a lamb dripping into a fire? It sizzles, is burned up and is gone and the smoke goes up forever and ever into nothing.

Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Hmmmm, "passed away"= Death. He "was not"= Annihilation. "He could not be found"= Oblivion.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again, these two verses are clearly speaking about complete annihilation. Ashes under the soles of feet is certainly not the same as burning in a fire forever.

Didn't God say that he set before us the way of life and the way of death? He certainly didn't say the way of life and the way of eternal torture.

It's so obvious through scripture that God completely annihilates the wicked that a child could understand it.

Why do those of you who believe in Hell doctrine have such a hard time with not only the scriptures I included but the following two scriptures:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die.

And

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It's eternal life on one side of the coin and death on the other. And as I stated before, eternal punishment? Absolutley. Eternal punishing? Absolutely not. The problem with Hell doctrine is that people have used it to convert others through fear when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through love. Not fear.

B.W. posted -

The unsaved will not have that, they are banished away from God’s presence forever

Agreed. And this is done by means of destruction when all traces of evil are totally and finally removed.

[B. W.]

One reason to have stayed on the infinite Punishment for Finite Sins (see page 26) thread as your comments have been answered there, Again, you are reading into the text. If such conclusions you insist contradict who God says he is and force God to deny himself, then such conclusions are false. Such new open theistic doctrines, as annihilationism bases their interpretations solely on what is most congenial to modernity. You are reading into the text. So, I will post the responses here from the Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins (see page 26)thread for the record:

Let us reason shall we.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: (KJV)

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If it never even entered God's mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as sacrifices to Molech, in the very same valley that Jesus uses as a metaphor for Hell, how can any of you who believe in Hell doctrine even consider that God would burn His children alive for all eternity?

Reason? That’s the whole problem, annihilationism applies fleshly human reasoning to the word of God and distorts the truth. But I’ll go over a few things with you….

The scriptures you provided above have nothing to do with hell...It would not enter God’s mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as a sacrifice to Molech because idolatry and murder are sins, It would never enter his mind. God gets jealous…And that’s the old testament God the Father we are talking about in the scriptures above, he didn’t take crap from anyone. As far as He is concerned, anyone that sacrifices to idols should be dragged out to the street and stoned to death (back in old testament times). You are talking about the God that turned a woman to salt, flooded the earth, destroyed cities and armies, caused plagues, killed disobedient servants as well as enemies of his servants etc- all because they defied him (sinned) and so he could make it clear that you don‘t trifle with God, in doing so, he created a name for himself that was to be feared, loved and respected, this gave him the power to save his creation until Jesus came to earth.

As for the rest of the scriptures you provided....

Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Hmmmm, "passed away"= Death. He "was not"= Annihilation. "He could not be found"= Oblivion

You are way off here, that makes no sense at all given the nature of this psalm, the whole psalm speaks of God bringing the wicked to justice for the harm they bring or attempt to bring on the righteous.

Here are the first few scriptures...The rest of the psalm follows the same theme..

Psalm 37:1 Do not fret because of evildoers, Be not envious toward wrongdoers.2 For they will wither quickly like the grass And fade like the green herb.3 Trust in the Lord and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart.

This is clearly about life on earth...

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

David just stated that God would bless his people Psalm 37:18-19. And the scripture above says: But God will deal with the wicked for their evil against the righteous and those who stand against the Lord will dwindle (from the earth).

Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

As an example of the things mentioned previously concerning how the wicked seek to harm or kill the righteous but are brought to justice. David says: I knew a case such as this. There was a powerful wicked man abusing his power, spreading great wickedness against the righteous. But he passed away, and, to my great amazement, he was no more (his rain of terror was over), yeah (no doubt about it), I checked all his normal hangouts but could not find him (I made sure of it, couldn’t find him anywhere, he's dead).

Justice was served.. David gave his conclusion concerning what happened to the wicked man before he gave the reason why he came to his conclusion. In other words, David had already thoroughly searched for the wicked man because he noticed he had not been around for a period of time, he searched thoroughly but could not find him anywhere, therefore, David concluded that he was dead.

Note: lo means [ Old English lā, natural exclamation]

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again, these two verses are clearly speaking about complete annihilation. Ashes under the soles of feet is certainly not the same as burning in a fire forever.

Right, how can ashes be under the feet of ashes, they don’t have feet so that’s completely out of the question. According to annihilationist, no one will be left in hell to step on anything. And God and his saints certainly will not be there. You have these scriptures all wrong....

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

These scriptures speak of the day God takes revenge on Jerusalem..

Malachi 4:2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be bashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 “He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

Still on earth here...

Didn't God say that he set before us the way of life and the way of death? He certainly didn't say the way of life and the way of eternal torture.

Acutely, he did say eternal torment...that is what he means when he say’s punishment concerning the following scripture..

The original word translated to punishment in Matthew 25:46 comes from the word kolazo meaning..

Strong number 2851...

punishment, torment.

From kolazo; penal infliction -- punishment, torment.

see GREEK kolazo

κόλασιν (kolasin) − 2 Occurrences

Also, Life and death, as it is used in the bible, in relation to those who are alive to make a decision to choose life or death on earth means.... Choose the fruits of the sprite and holiness (god’s way, character etc/God) or choose to live in an empty state, void of the fruits of the sprite and holiness (The corruption of sin and Satan's way). Those who are alive to make a choice will die a natural death and have no choice on the matter. Those who live for eternity with God will never die again. And those who burn in hell can not choose at all, therefore, the scripture does not apply to those in hell, only the scriptures that talk on the fate of those who burn in hell apply to those in hell, and we have been over them, their life in hell is eternal. God was extremely clear about the type of life and death he was talking about.

The first scripture of the choose life passage...

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

You must exist to experience both prosperity and adversity so both life and death refers to those that exist.

Then God goes on to give the exact meaning of the life he speaks of...

Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Deuteronomy 30:20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Again, obviously we are talking about life on earth, not heaven and hell...

It's so obvious through scripture that God completely annihilates the wicked that a child could understand it.

Children may understand annihilationism but they are young and often ignore reality in favor of playing make-believe.

Why do those of you who believe in Hell doctrine have such a hard time with not only the scriptures I included but the following two scriptures:

Acutely, I don’t have a problem with them at all...I love God’s word. But seriously, your use and interpretation of God’s character and scripture is pretty far off the mark here. There may be other reasons we did not respond....But hey, you crossed the line with your insults...

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die.

You removed the portion above from the rest of the scripture...I’ll post starting from the first scripture of this passage ...

Ezekiel 18:1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

God say’s that each person is responsible for their own sins and He deals fairly, administering justice against each person according to the individuals own sins, not the sins of others, so you had better stop distorting his word and perfect image. Then it goes on to give details on the matter and various examples of how God will deal with each person.

The passage adds on to what David talked about in Psalm 37:1-4 (Others have talked on it as well)

Psalm 37:1 Do not fret because of evildoers, Be not envious toward wrongdoers.2 For they will wither quickly like the grass And fade like the green herb.3 Trust in the Lord and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart.

God brings the sinner to justice and blesses the righteous, each according to their own deeds. And yes, these scriptures are about life on earth, not heaven or hell...

And

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin is a rip off (If sin is one’s boss/master it gives them something they don‘t want-sin cheats people); but God gives the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul writes in romans (among other things) that we should avoid sin, not only for ourselves but for the benefit of those watching.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It's eternal life on one side of the coin and death on the other. And as I stated before, eternal punishment? Absolutley. Eternal punishing? Absolutely not. The problem with Hell doctrine is that people have used it to convert others through fear when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through love. Not fear.

No, the bible does not contradict it’s self, It's eternal life in heaven on one side of the coin and eternal life in hell on the other. And as I said before, eternal punishing? Absolutely, eternal punishment (annihilation)? Absolutely not. The problem with annihilationism is that people have used it to convert others through the ways of the flesh when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through respect and love. Not because He is just by fleshy human standards.

Concerning fear...You are wrong and there are a large number of scriptures that cover the matter.

It is Jesus who warned of hell, it’s He who will judge humankind and take revenge on those that hate him (do not love him/the unsaved). The lake of fire gives Jesus a name that is to be feared and respected and that is exactly what he intended. God is not some pushover, he makes it clear in his word that he is to be revered and loved all at the same time. And the unsaved are not God’s children, they will spend eternity in hell because he said so (it’s a bit more technical but I’ve been over it). All good parents should be both loved and revered, or else, their children, who do not know better, will fall into harms way.

Just a few scriptures...

Deuteronomy 6:5 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Not even the love part of it is to be disrespected.

2 Ch 19:7 “Now then let the fear of the Lord be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the Lord our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe.”

Luke 12:4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Psalm 34:9 O fear the Lord, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may 1remain with you, so that you may not sin.”

Revelation 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Revelation 15:4 His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.4 “Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For all the nations will come and worship before You, For Your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Proverbs 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and turn away from evil.

Annihilationism dilutes the fear of God and it is unbiblical and dangerous, God knows his creation best.

I'm sorry if my previous post appeared to be condescending. That was not my intention.

If the Second Death is not eternal death than what is it? Burning in the lake of fire forever is not eternal death. It is continual torture in another plane of existence. When I see that word "Death" it means the end of existence. Physical death is the end of life or the first death and from what I understand of scriptures some will die twice,(second death). I don't believe I have altered scripture to fit my world view because anyone could understand that physical death is exactly that; death. And in the case of the second death it is the non-existence or death of the soul. I don't understand why those of you who believe in Hell doctrine can't understand that word "death" and claim it's something other than what the defintion of the word says and at the same time claim that God is a God of mercy. That just doesn't cut it.

I used to believe in Hell. I thought it was only fitting that the worst kinds of humans were tortured forever. It seemed right people like Hitler or Stalin for example, would burn forever in pain, with or without Biblical documentation. And not that I'm a Nazi or Communist sympathizer but I believe that even the worst dregs of humanity, including Hitler and Stalin will be taught by Christ in the future. They are still His children regardless of how misled they were in life....Peace. Ron

Katabole, what you are doing is reading into the text you cited (Jer 19:5 - Jer 32:35 - Psalm 37:20, 35-36 - Malachi 4:1-3 - Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 6:23) in your prior post on page 26 to mean oblivion – annihilation for words translated death, cut off, smoke, fire, condemned, etc. In the Old Testament era, the concept of mortal death was to awaken elsewhere as a shade (Hebrew-repaim) and in that state, one could not come back to the land of the mortals on earth. One was cut off – divided from the land of the mortal living. On earth, all memory of one’s life will be forgotten by the mortal living. There was no reason to fear the dead coming back to hurt the mortal living. These shades resided in Sheol, also called the pit, grave, the Trap, Netherworld, place of the dead, place of Abaddon – meaning ruin, waste, hopelessness - not non-existence.

Likewise, fire represented making what was once pleasant, fruitful land a waste land that is desolate, abandoned, forsaken, unfruitful. Invading armies would burn and salt a land of a country conquered so it becomes a wasteland - unusable to their enemies who could use that land for supplies during a time of war. These meanings are not considered in the different branches of annihilationism where all such words have only one meaning – extermination into non-being.

For example Ps 37:35-36 - means do not fear the dead coming back to take vengeance. So to put in a modern manner using modern day silly Hollywood style ling-go: Freddy Kruger - Michael Myers cannot come back from the dead and hurt you. The text is stating the fact that the wicked dead will not come back again and cause harm to the living. That is but one part of the symbolism of this text.

Please also note this about symbolism and metaphoric phrases used in the bible by what God said in Ezekiel 21:4, "Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north…”

Now, let’s apply how annihilationist traditional defines what ‘cut off’ means to this text - "Because I will cut off (Annihilate into oblivion) both righteous and wicked from you…"

God says he will do the same to both righteous and wicked in this verse. If annihilation applies to the wicked – it must apply to the righteous in the same measure. However, it does not mean or covey annihilation. In fact, the Hebrew word translated ‘Cut off’ refers to cutting in two – dividing, separating – not annihilation into oblivion when used in such context regarding judgments. In other contexts- it means joining oneself into a covenant with someone.

Look at Ezekiel 20:47, 48, 49 for an example on use symbol of flame/fire to point out a truth hard to express in human language: "…and say to the forest of the South, 'Hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. 48 All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.49 Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! They say of me, 'Does he not speak parables?"

Does fire and smoke only mean annihilation into oblivion? Or refer to something else? In Luke 3:16 John the Baptist told that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire – does that mean annihilation? What of the 3000 in the book of Acts – where they annihilated into oblivion because tongues of fire rested upon them? What of the Pillar of Fire and Smoke whom led the children of Israel in the wilderness? Now, if you can discern figures of speech elsewhere in the bible – why can’t you see them in the text you cited as the parable of speech intends?

(Read again Rev 14:11 for further illustrations of biblical symbolism and metaphors regarding smoke/fire)

Next,

It is truly amazing that all the bible passages/verses which objectively describe God’s character, nature, and attributes cannot be strung together in any manner to say any other thing other than what each objectively states about God. However, bible verses used by annihilationist tradition can indeed be strung together along with inserted definitions and innuendos to say just about anything.

If annihilationist traditional interpretations which are used do not line up and cannot be reconcile with the bible verses that objectively describe God’s character, nature, and attributes, then something is amiss, and such interpretations are invalid. Have you taken the time needed to explore who God is from the bible to see if they reconcile with who God is? God is unlike us in all venues.

If you would have, you would have discovered that they cannot be reconciled to how the biblical record objectively defines God. Therefore, the verses you cited mean something else entirely. It is the annihilationist who strings bible verses together, changing metaphors, analogies, and word meanings to fit the traditional ‘what best serves mans’ theology.

Looking at the typical line of reasoning that your Tradition imposes on the verses you cite, they do not reconcile with who God is as He reveals about Himself from the bible. How so - For such interpretations of scripture to be true, they would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God must deny himself in order to be able to reconcile to the views of either annihilationism or universalism; therefore, such interpretations’ are way off the mark. They do not square with who God is. Rather they square with what people think best for themselves about how God should react to them.

Much like asking all convicted prison inmates what is the best sentence they would like and then having the judge sentence them according to their wishes. I worked in the human corrections field. A volunteer asked this of a group of inmates where I used to work. The results were like this: most wanted off the hook, promising never to do bad again, others wanted to punish their accusers once let go, those facing life sentences preferred either being let go or executed quickly instead. None thought the punishment they received fit the finite crime they committed. All of the inmates participating were repeat offenders and all accused the judge as unfair, unjust…

Now back to the subject of scriptures used to support Annihilationism:

Looking at the typical line of reasoning Annihilationist Tradition imposes on the verses cited in your post about Psalms 37 – etc.. Katabole, such interpretations do not reconcile with who God is as He reveals about Himself from the bible.

How so…

For God to exterminate into non-being oblivion would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God is truly partial. How: by annihilating the life in one person then granting life to another. In other words, this proves that does God indeed revokes his own gift of life (Acts 17:25) by taking it away due to annihilation showing preference to another to live. Also such extermination proves that God cannot keep/fulfill his word as spoken in Gen 1:26 and that God is not truly righteously just to the just and to the unjust. To do as annihilationist insist, God must deny who He is – a God of profound Justice. If God annihilates the devil wins…

In fact the term used by annihilationist, conditional immortality, itself suggest God shows partiality to beings he purposed and designed to share part in his eternal image so that they can mirror i.e. be a reflection how God governs righteously, etc, wherever such were assigned! For conditional immortality be true it must result in God denying himself, his word, his gifts, by causing God to be absolutely partial in granting life to one and exterminating into non-existence another. God would need to deny who He is to do so.

To avoid all unrighteousness, God squares things by making a place to confine the Devil and his minions forever. No violation to anything God said, promised, or given is revoked. Instead, it is justly applied to all in ways too profound to go into great details here.

Here is Another Example of misapplied Annihilationist reasoning:

Mat 23:14, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.” NKJV

Notice Jesus’ words to the Pharisees regarding their eternal end. Jesus stated they would receive a greater condemnation based on what they had sown during their earthly lives. Therefore, how could they receive a greater condemnation if all are annihilated into non-being for what they had sown? How is that possible if all are equally annihilated into no-being?

Annihilationist, to get around this, contend that that God just temporarily turns up the heat on these people to whom Jesus spoke more than any others in the same fire before exterminating them. However, this does not jive due to the fact that this goes against Jesus’ own words spoken because how can greater be greater if all are annihilated (cease to be) equally?

In fact, how does the annihilationist tradition square with God giving to each according to what they have done if the final result is equality of extermination? Equal punishment is unjust and proves partiality, however, degrees of just punishment is just and impartial. By such annihilationist traditional reasoning on resulting equality of oblivion would indeed prove that God is unjust and partial. How? Let’s look further into this:

Traditional annihilationism believes humanity sins can be classed on levels of severity. Their Tradition states, that the punishment does not fit the crime. If that is so, then one very minor sin committed by a person being punished 1000 years in the current hell before the final Judgment and then another person committing the same exact minor sin is punished 10 years before the final judgment and then both burned up in the lake of fire. The year difference shows clear partiality.

In fact, for the sake of mercy, and love, why punish any at all, if not even a Holy God can bear looking upon suffering, then why not just blast every sinner into oblivion immediately after death? Why torture them at all? What good does that do since the punishment does not fit a finite crime not deserving annihilation? How can that really be Just?

Instead, what proves mercy and real love is a just honest life sentence based on the truth about God and the person convicted - not on extinction. That is where you need to look, not stringing bible verses together using annihilationist or universalist traditional logic and emotional rhetoric. In Fact, The annihilationist tradition would send people off into oblivion for the most minor of sins because according to their traditions – sin can be classed as minor to major due to man’s finiteness.

Granting such the rest of oblivion also denies what God said himself that He would not do – grant peace/rest to the wicked, or acquit them in any form. Therefore the passages annihilationist traditionally interpret their way do not line up with God’s character, nature, or attributes. The meanings of these passages cited on page 26 are quite different than what such Tradition claims. However, many annihilationist would not even consider this as even a remote possibility: That it is impossible for God to deny Himself.

It is due to His own deep great Love that God does not exterminate into nothingness or blindly allow all into heaven either. God does not force people to convert or repent in this life – he asks and persuades, leaving the individual to deicide their course instead. This is indeed just and that is one example of how just and righteous God is. That is one reason why he gives accordingly to what one has done. Forcing someone, after they die in the afterlife, to enter heaven to be with God whom they do not like would be unjust to the person as well as make God unjust to his own justice and love.

Isaiah 26:10 states the principle clearly why God does not grant afterlife salvation to all. Doing so, the person reverts back to sin that manipulates and games God’s own character traits for one’s personal benefit as he/she will not recognize the Majesty of God. Only during this mortal life can change justly happen through persuading which activates faith. God then justly invades a person and changes them inside out – prepping them for Heaven. There is no afterlife salvation.

[Sudsy]

Holes, holes, holes, the traditionalist's arguments are chucked full of holes. I'm looking forward to that day when all pain and all types of suffering and death and hell and every form of evil will be no more. I won't be looking down on my poor, unsaved loved ones and approving of their endless torment in hell fire. All the evil and killing and destruction will be over and God will be all in all. No more day or night as the former things have passed away.

I would think to maintain a traditionalist view, there must be present, on-going torment of mind for those who have loved ones that are still not saved. I remember going through those periods in my youth when I feared for my unsaved friends and relatives. I cried and pleaded for God to save them before it was too late. I recall many prayer meetings were believers would literally cry out and beg God to save them from hell fire. Along with this, those who really believed in endless torment would constantly be in the face of their loved ones to repent before it is too late.

Yet, today, I see many who hold unto the view of endless torment in hell fire and go about their lives in a very uncaring concern where many don't even tell their loved ones what they really believe will happen to them. At least an annihilationist view does not have this type of concern. My desire is for none to perish (be destroyed literally) but rather turn and receive the offer of eternal life with God. Whatever punishment they receive for not repenting, I believe will be fair and just and quite reflective of how God judged and punished in scriptures, without lengthy torturing.

So, bottom line for me is, regardless of these arguments to support endless torment, at heart, most of you traditionalists don't really believe it. Your walk speaks louder than your talk. The alternative is, if you do believe it and you are not pleading with everyone and crying out to God for their salvation, then I can only conclude that you are a very self centered person who really doesn't care for his fellow man. In this case, the love of God for all mankind is not very evident in your response.

And I know this rubs some the wrong way but if the shoe fits, wear it. The annihilationist view continues to be openly slammed in these threads, so I think it only fitting to give some back on the traditionalists view. When the traditionalists are ready to make a truce, I'm game. This is not respectful debating, IMO.

[B. W.]

+
Well Sudsy you have convinced that exterminating into non-existence is the best most absolutely superior from of Love and Mercy around. So superior in fact that we should implement the same acts on those that suffer and begin mirroring this most superior act of love, kindness, mercy to those suffering from disabilities as well as the developmentally disable right now...

...Let’s champion abortion as well and abort because this clearly demonstrates the highest form of the most superior love of God – Annihilation - so as to avoid and escape SUFFERING!

Whats you say Sudsy? Let's get it on!

Let’s put all the suffering humans out of their pitiful suffering because it is the great act of Love there ever was and ever can be – sanctioned by God as interpreted by annihilationist like yourself!

So… why not Sudsy – let’s abort a baby today! – spare the child chance of hell or heaven and avoid all suffering that life brings! Let’s Clean out the hospitals – eliminate all needless suffering – NOW!

Isn’t the love of annihilationism so wonderfully grand! So Superior in its mirroring God great Love and Mercy - is it not?

Sudsy, Ideas have consequences – Annihilationism cannot stand the test of morality, and I hope you get that from my above statements illustrating where it ultimately leads too...

Annihilationism is only acceptable to human terms, morals, and conditions, but it is not based on God’s word or the terms that his own character and nature dictate as necessary. Annihilationism seeks a reinterpretation of scripture and woe to any who dare challenge them. They’ll be called names and found guilty of insulting human sensibilities.

Sudsy, Is it really wise for human sensibilities to accuse God of being a happy torturer so as to manipulate God to do as annihilationist desire or else they can’t and will not believe in God unless He bends his knee to the manipulated will of man – to annihilate the suffering into nesciences as an appealing act of mercy for them? You think God is so easily finagled with threats that he better change his ways or mankind will just not believe in him?

You really desire to have God deny himself and all that he is as the living God who denies not his gift he gave called life just to appease you and annihilationist or else you will not follow him? Are You threatening God????

You think what I say is silly and without merit that it is the annihilationist who are guilty of interjecting their privet interpretations into biblical text concerning hell and punishment? Hmmm, here are some examples that have them admitting to this as their stated intent and goal to reinterpret scripture text to fit what they consider is truth:

Pinnock mirrors all major leaders of conditionalism in his statement that, “…Let me says at the outset that I consider the concept of Hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition that needs to be changed.”
Clark Pinnock, The Destruction of the Finally Impenitent, Criswell Theological Review 4, no. 2 (1990) 246-47, 253.

John Wenham also stated regarding Hell that theologians must use, “intensive efforts to find alternatives to the teaching of traditional orthodoxy.”

Please note Pinnock’s words not mine: "Let me say at the outset that I consider the concept… that needs changed”

So just because He personally considers something as error, then it must be? Who is He to make that kind of judgment call? Who are these people?

Please read this Article on Evangelical Megashift proposed by Robert Brow and Pinnock… To base the doctrine of God far more congenial to modernity…

from this link -- http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/201 ... mohler.pdf -- from Page 11

...Ominous signs of evangelical compromise are already apparent. In 1990, the evangelical news magazine Christianity Today trumpeted what some have called “The Evangelical Megashift.” Robert Brow argued that evangelical theology has shifted from an Augustinian and Reformation foundation to a doctrine of God far more congenial to modernity. Brow declared and championed this theological revolution. What will this revolution reject? Rendered obsolete and out of step are such central doctrines as substitionary atonement, any penal understanding of the cross, forensic justification, imputed righteousness, and eventually the notion of hell. This revolution has declared out of date a notion of God as omnipotent, omniscient, and sovereign. Brow is quite confident of the eventual victory of this theological revolution. As he stated, “A whole generation of young people has breathed this air.”15

Pinnock states that "...the popular tradition concerning the nature of punishment that some of the wicked will have to suffer is morally flawed." Pinnock, Fire, Then Nothing, Christianity Today 20 (March, 1987) 40.

Again, this demonstrates that annihilationism is human oriented all based on their human determination on what is to be defined as morally flawed and congenial to modernity…

Is it morally flawed for God to deny himself?

This seems not to be even considered by annihilationist/conditionalist; instead, just because they consider eternal never-ending conscious recompense to be bad, the bible must be reinterpreted according solely to their point of view based solely on their theological taste congenial to modernity. Then they have the audacity to claim that anyone who supports what Jesus says about hell as a state of never-ending retribution is guilty of forcing their privet interpretations on the world is an extreme case of mirroring to hide their own.
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[Sudsy]

Well Sudsy you have convinced that exterminating into non-existence is the best most absolutely superior from of Love and Mercy around.

Thankyou, you finally get it.

So superior in fact that we should implement the same acts on those that suffer and begin mirroring this most superior act of love, kindness, mercy to those suffering from disabilities as well as the developmentally disable right now

But there you go again, putting 2 + 2 = 3. We are not God. He did not give us this right anymore than He gave us all immortality. God is not taking away eternal life because He never gave it to all. Only in your theology has He. But we've been through this over and over again that you think your interpretations are the one and only way to undersand things.

Isn’t the love of annihilationism so wonderfully grand! So Superior in its mirroring God great Love and Mercy - is it not?

Now you are back. Amen !

Pinnock mirrors all major leaders of conditionalism in his statement that, “…Let me says at the outset that I consider the concept of Hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition that needs to be changed.”

And it is. And a scriptural supporting alternative view exists, whether you want to acknowledge it or not doesn't matter. You always want to fall back on your argument that this view is created based on what is best for man and that makes it suspect. Is that how you feel about heaven also ? It also is what is best for man.

You really desire to have God deny himself and all that he is as the living God who denies not his gift he gave called life just to appease you and annihilationist or else you will not follow him? Are You threatening God????

Whoa, now there is a desperate remark when being opposed ! I'm glad I and many who hold the 'A' view don't have to live up to your understandings of scripture to be a follower of Christ. If anyone is threatening God it is you when you insist that God must act according to your theology. You certainly have a high opinion of your understandings of scripture when you make sport of the opinions of other more respected scholars.

Please note Pinnock’s words not mine: "Let me say at the outset that I consider the concept… that needs changed”

And he is entitled to that opinion. Martin Luther is another example that insisted a concept needed change and my guess is that you agreed with him. Not all change is bad, you know.

Anyway, for more supportive information on the 'A' view and one of it's main opponents read this section -
'Has Robert Peterson Defeated Annihilationism ? - http://www.beretta-online.com/articles/ ... ology.html

Answer - No, not anymore than B.W. has.

[Canuckster1127]

Reminder on this thread. Please address the issues and leave personalities out of it. It's fine to be passionate and care about the importance of what you're discussing. It's not fine to move the target from the issue to someone who disagrees with you. I'm not singling out any one person. Please examine your own comments and examine yourself as to whether there grounds for concern and if so, please modify the past posts and continue with that in mind.

Thanks.

bart