Evidence for God from Science

So Sudsy, I see you just brush off everything I put forth so easily and not willing to even to discuss and explore. You seem to know all things and will not even bother to investigate to see if what I posted is bible based on truth or not. So I'll post what I posted on your other thread in response to you here:

Sudsy wrote:

So Sudsy, I see you just brush off everything I put forth so easily and not willing to even to discuss and explore. You seem to know all things and will not even bother to investigate to see if what I posted is bible based on truth or not. So I'll post what I posted on your other thread in response to you here:

I think the readers can judge for themselves whether or not I have brushed off everything you put forth. I have not indicated that your arguments are not 'bible based' but you do not accept that they are your interpretations of what the bible says. You are suggesting to me that being in the 'image of God' for you also includes being all-knowing. Some of us just don't think that is true. I understand your line of reasoning and how you interpret scriptures to make your conclusions. I just don't agree with all of them and am not alone in this. These blanket statements you make about my involvement are not true and really I think you need to apologize for making them when you know they are not true.

The Bible wrote:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Gen 1:26, 28a, Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth….28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

Luke 20:38 For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, "Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

Isa 42:5 Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it:

Ec 3:11-14 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….

Ec 3:14-15 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past

Ec 3:16, 17a, Moreover I saw under the sun: In the place of judgment, Wickedness was there; And in the place of righteousness, Iniquity was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Ec 3:18, 19, 20a, I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust.

Ec 3:21, 22a Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

2 Sa 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life

Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

1 Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

1Sa 2:6 "The LORD kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up.

Isa 26:19 Your dead shall live; Together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust; For your dew is like the dew of herbs, And the earth shall cast out the dead.

Dan 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Jer 20:11 But the LORD is with me as a mighty, awesome One. Therefore my persecutors will stumble, and will not prevail. They will be greatly ashamed, for they will not prosper. Their everlasting confusion will never be forgotten.

Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.'"

Mat 25:46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Acts 24:15 I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Job 19:25, 26a, For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth; 26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,

Jer 9:24 But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I am the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the LORD.

All Bible quotes from the NKJV

Bible from NKJV wrote:
Luke 20:38, "For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him."

Isa 42:5 "Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread forth the earth and that which comes from it, Who gives breath to the people on it, And spirit to those who walk on it…"

Ec 3:11-14 He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end….

Bible from NKJV wrote: Ec 3:14-15 I know that whatever God does, It shall be forever. Nothing can be added to it, And nothing taken from it. God does it, that men should fear before Him. 15 That which is has already been, And what is to be has already been; And God requires an account of what is past

Bible from NKJV wrote: Ec 3:16, 17a, Moreover I saw under the sun: In the place of judgment, Wickedness was there; and in the place of righteousness, Iniquity was there. 17 I said in my heart, "God shall judge the righteous and the wicked, For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work."

Ec 3:18, 19, 20. 21a, I said in my heart, "Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals." 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth?

Bible from NKJV wrote:Ec 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,

2 Sa 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means, so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, The plans of His heart to all generations.

Job 33:4 The Spirit of God has made me, And the breath of the Almighty gives me life

Acts 17:25 Nor is He worshiped with men's hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things.

1 Ti 6:13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,

Zec 12:1 The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

Rom 4:17 (as it is written, "I HAVE MADE YOU A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS") in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did…

Bible from NKJV wrote:Rom 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Bible from NKJV wrote:Num 23:19 "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

Bible from NKJV wrote:2 Ti 2:13: If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

Bible from NKJV wrote:Heb 6:18 - that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.

What can one do against such unjust and malignant shouts that seek to divide and cause strife between fellow Christians (note last sentence of article linked for evidence of this)? Does not the bible tell us that where strife is, so is every evil work and such is not of God?

So think about this: For annihilationism to be true would mean that none of the above verses are true about God and all are in dire error about God. In other words, what God says about himself is untrue, He is not a God who does not lie, not God always stable and unchanging, not a God who keeps his word, promises or gifts.

Conditional Immortality maintains that eternal life is not the intrinsic possession of the soul, but the gracious gift of God, "Who ONLY hath immortality" (1 Tim. 6:16). We do not receive it by our first birth in Adam, but by our second birth in the second Adam, Christ! "For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, even so IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE" (1 Cor. 15:22). One must have a second birth to escape the second death. Through our first birth in Adam we inherit sin and death; through a second birth in Christ we receive the gift of righteousness and life (Rom. 5:21). The wages of sin is death, an end of life; the gift of God is endless life (Rom. 6:23). The truth of Scripture is DEATH IN ADAM - LIFE IN CHRIST! Article from brother bird article - A Summary of Conditional Immortality

“God only created man potentially immortal. Immortality is a state gained by grace through faith when the believer receives eternal life and become partakers of the divine nature, immortality…”

Let us reason shall we.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: (KJV)

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If it never even entered God's mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as sacrifices to Molech, in the very same valley that Jesus uses as a metaphor for Hell, how can any of you who believe in Hell doctrine even consider that God would burn His children alive for all eternity?

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Any of you ever witnessed the fat of a lamb dripping into a fire? It sizzles, is burned up and is gone and the smoke goes up forever and ever into nothing.

Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Hmmmm, "passed away"= Death. He "was not"= Annihilation. "He could not be found"= Oblivion.

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again, these two verses are clearly speaking about complete annihilation. Ashes under the soles of feet is certainly not the same as burning in a fire forever.

Didn't God say that he set before us the way of life and the way of death? He certainly didn't say the way of life and the way of eternal torture.

It's so obvious through scripture that God completely annihilates the wicked that a child could understand it.

Why do those of you who believe in Hell doctrine have such a hard time with not only the scriptures I included but the following two scriptures:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die.

And

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It's eternal life on one side of the coin and death on the other. And as I stated before, eternal punishment? Absolutley. Eternal punishing? Absolutely not. The problem with Hell doctrine is that people have used it to convert others through fear when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through love. Not fear.

The unsaved will not have that, they are banished away from God’s presence forever

J.Davis wrote:

Katabole wrote:Let us reason shall we.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: (KJV)

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

If it never even entered God's mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as sacrifices to Molech, in the very same valley that Jesus uses as a metaphor for Hell, how can any of you who believe in Hell doctrine even consider that God would burn His children alive for all eternity?

Reason? That’s the whole problem, annihilationism applies fleshly human reasoning to the word of God and distorts the truth. But I’ll go over a few things with you….

The scriptures you provided above have nothing to do with hell...It would not enter God’s mind for the Israelites to burn their children alive as a sacrifice to Molech because idolatry and murder are sins, It would never enter his mind. God gets jealous…And that’s the old testament God the Father we are talking about in the scriptures above, he didn’t take crap from anyone. As far as He is concerned, anyone that sacrifices to idols should be dragged out to the street and stoned to death (back in old testament times). You are talking about the God that turned a woman to salt, flooded the earth, destroyed cities and armies, caused plagues, killed disobedient servants as well as enemies of his servants etc- all because they defied him (sinned) and so he could make it clear that you don‘t trifle with God, in doing so, he created a name for himself that was to be feared, loved and respected, this gave him the power to save his creation until Jesus came to earth.

As for the rest of the scriptures you provided....

Katabole wrote:Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.

Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Hmmmm, "passed away"= Death. He "was not"= Annihilation. "He could not be found"= Oblivion

You are way off here, that makes no sense at all given the nature of this psalm, the whole psalm speaks of God bringing the wicked to justice for the harm they bring or attempt to bring on the righteous.

Here are the first few scriptures...The rest of the psalm follows the same theme..

Psalm 37:1 Do not fret because of evildoers, Be not envious toward wrongdoers.2 For they will wither quickly like the grass And fade like the green herb.3 Trust in the Lord and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart.

This is clearly about life on earth...

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

David just stated that God would bless his people Psalm 37:18-19. And the scripture above says: But God will deal with the wicked for their evil against the righteous and those who stand against the Lord will dwindle (from the earth).

Psalm 37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Psalm 37:36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

As an example of the things mentioned previously concerning how the wicked seek to harm or kill the righteous but are brought to justice. David says: I knew a case such as this. There was a powerful wicked man abusing his power, spreading great wickedness against the righteous. But he passed away, and, to my great amazement, he was no more (his rain of terror was over), yeah (no doubt about it), I checked all his normal hangouts but could not find him (I made sure of it, couldn’t find him anywhere, he's dead).

Justice was served.. David gave his conclusion concerning what happened to the wicked man before he gave the reason why he came to his conclusion. In other words, David had already thoroughly searched for the wicked man because he noticed he had not been around for a period of time, he searched thoroughly but could not find him anywhere, therefore, David concluded that he was dead.

Note: lo means [ Old English lā, natural exclamation]

Katabole wrote:Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again, these two verses are clearly speaking about complete annihilation. Ashes under the soles of feet is certainly not the same as burning in a fire forever.

Right, how can ashes be under the feet of ashes, they don’t have feet so that’s completely out of the question. According to annihilationist, no one will be left in hell to step on anything. And God and his saints certainly will not be there. You have these scriptures all wrong....

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Malachi 4:3 And he shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

These scriptures speak of the day God takes revenge on Jerusalem..

Malachi 4:2 “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. 3 “You will tread down the wicked, for they will be bashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Malachi 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 “He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

Still on earth here...

Katabole wrote:Didn't God say that he set before us the way of life and the way of death? He certainly didn't say the way of life and the way of eternal torture.

Acutely, he did say eternal torment...that is what he means when he say’s punishment concerning the following scripture..

The original word translated to punishment in Matthew 25:46 comes from the word kolazo meaning..

Strong number 2851...

punishment, torment.

From kolazo; penal infliction -- punishment, torment.

see GREEK kolazo

κόλασιν (kolasin) − 2 Occurrences

Also, Life and death, as it is used in the bible, in relation to those who are alive to make a decision to choose life or death on earth means.... Choose the fruits of the sprite and holiness (god’s way, character etc/God) or choose to live in an empty state, void of the fruits of the sprite and holiness (The corruption of sin and Satan's way). Those who are alive to make a choice will die a natural death and have no choice on the matter. Those who live for eternity with God will never die again. And those who burn in hell can not choose at all, therefore, the scripture does not apply to those in hell, only the scriptures that talk on the fate of those who burn in hell apply to those in hell, and we have been over them, their life in hell is eternal. God was extremely clear about the type of life and death he was talking about.

The first scripture of the choose life passage...

Deuteronomy 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity;

You must exist to experience both prosperity and adversity so both life and death refers to those that exist.

Then God goes on to give the exact meaning of the life he speaks of...

Deuteronomy 30:19 “I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Deuteronomy 30:20 by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice, and by holding fast to Him; for this is your life and the length of your days, that you may live in the land which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give them.”

Again, obviously we are talking about life on earth, not heaven and hell...

Katabole wrote:It's so obvious through scripture that God completely annihilates the wicked that a child could understand it.

Children may understand annihilationism but they are young and often ignore reality in favor of playing make-believe.

Katabole wrote:Why do those of you who believe in Hell doctrine have such a hard time with not only the scriptures I included but the following two scriptures:

Acutely, I don’t have a problem with them at all...I love God’s word. But seriously, your use and interpretation of God’s character and scripture is pretty far off the mark here. There may be other reasons we did not respond....But hey, you crossed the line with your insults...

Katabole wrote:Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sins, it shall die.

You removed the portion above from the rest of the scripture...I’ll post starting from the first scripture of this passage ...

Ezekiel 18:1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 2 “What do you mean by using this proverb concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The fathers eat the sour grapes, But the children’s teeth are set on edge’? 3 “As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you are surely not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 “Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

God say’s that each person is responsible for their own sins and He deals fairly, administering justice against each person according to the individuals own sins, not the sins of others, so you had better stop distorting his word and perfect image. Then it goes on to give details on the matter and various examples of how God will deal with each person.

The passage adds on to what David talked about in Psalm 37:1-4 (Others have talked on it as well)

Psalm 37:1 Do not fret because of evildoers, Be not envious toward wrongdoers.2 For they will wither quickly like the grass And fade like the green herb.3 Trust in the Lord and do good; Dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness. 4 Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart.

God brings the sinner to justice and blesses the righteous, each according to their own deeds. And yes, these scriptures are about life on earth, not heaven or hell...

Katabole wrote:And

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin is a rip off (If sin is one’s boss/master it gives them something they don‘t want-sin cheats people); but God gives the gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Paul writes in romans (among other things) that we should avoid sin, not only for ourselves but for the benefit of those watching.

J.Davis wrote:

Katabole wrote:The Bible doesn't contradict itself. It's eternal life on one side of the coin and death on the other. And as I stated before, eternal punishment? Absolutley. Eternal punishing? Absolutely not. The problem with Hell doctrine is that people have used it to convert others through fear when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through love. Not fear.

No, the bible does not contradict it’s self, It's eternal life in heaven on one side of the coin and eternal life in hell on the other. And as I said before, eternal punishing? Absolutely, eternal punishment (annihilation)? Absolutely not. The problem with annihilationism is that people have used it to convert others through the ways of the flesh when it is not Biblical. God wants those who come to Him to come to Him through respect and love. Not because He is just by fleshy human standards.

Concerning fear...You are wrong and there are a large number of scriptures that cover the matter.

It is Jesus who warned of hell, it’s He who will judge humankind and take revenge on those that hate him (do not love him/the unsaved). The lake of fire gives Jesus a name that is to be feared and respected and that is exactly what he intended. God is not some pushover, he makes it clear in his word that he is to be revered and loved all at the same time. And the unsaved are not God’s children, they will spend eternity in hell because he said so (it’s a bit more technical but I’ve been over it). All good parents should be both loved and revered, or else, their children, who do not know better, will fall into harms way.

Just a few scriptures...

Deuteronomy 6:5 “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart.

Not even the love part of it is to be disrespected.

2 Ch 19:7 “Now then let the fear of the Lord be upon you; be very careful what you do, for the Lord our God will have no part in unrighteousness or partiality or the taking of a bribe.”

Luke 12:4 “I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

Psalm 34:9 O fear the Lord, you His saints; For to those who fear Him there is no want.

Exodus 20:20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid; for God has come in order to test you, and in order that the fear of Him may 1remain with you, so that you may not sin.”

Revelation 14:7 and he said with a loud voice, “Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.”

Revelation 15:4 His affection abounds all the more toward you, as he remembers the obedience of you all, how you received him with fear and trembling.4 “Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify Your name? For You alone are holy; For all the nations will come and worship before You, For Your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Proverbs 3:7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the Lord and turn away from evil.

Annihilationism dilutes the fear of God and it is unbiblical and dangerous, God knows his creation best.

B. W. wrote:

Katabole wrote:I'm sorry if my previous post appeared to be condescending. That was not my intention.

If the Second Death is not eternal death than what is it? Burning in the lake of fire forever is not eternal death. It is continual torture in another plane of existence. When I see that word "Death" it means the end of existence. Physical death is the end of life or the first death and from what I understand of scriptures some will die twice,(second death). I don't believe I have altered scripture to fit my world view because anyone could understand that physical death is exactly that; death. And in the case of the second death it is the non-existence or death of the soul. I don't understand why those of you who believe in Hell doctrine can't understand that word "death" and claim it's something other than what the defintion of the word says and at the same time claim that God is a God of mercy. That just doesn't cut it.

I used to believe in Hell. I thought it was only fitting that the worst kinds of humans were tortured forever. It seemed right people like Hitler or Stalin for example, would burn forever in pain, with or without Biblical documentation. And not that I'm a Nazi or Communist sympathizer but I believe that even the worst dregs of humanity, including Hitler and Stalin will be taught by Christ in the future. They are still His children regardless of how misled they were in life....Peace. Ron

Katabole, what you are doing is reading into the text you cited (Jer 19:5 - Jer 32:35 - Psalm 37:20, 35-36 - Malachi 4:1-3 - Ezekiel 18:20, Romans 6:23) in your prior post on page 26 to mean oblivion – annihilation for words translated death, cut off, smoke, fire, condemned, etc. In the Old Testament era, the concept of mortal death was to awaken elsewhere as a shade (Hebrew-repaim) and in that state, one could not come back to the land of the mortals on earth. One was cut off – divided from the land of the mortal living. On earth, all memory of one’s life will be forgotten by the mortal living. There was no reason to fear the dead coming back to hurt the mortal living. These shades resided in Sheol, also called the pit, grave, the Trap, Netherworld, place of the dead, place of Abaddon – meaning ruin, waste, hopelessness - not non-existence.

Likewise, fire represented making what was once pleasant, fruitful land a waste land that is desolate, abandoned, forsaken, unfruitful. Invading armies would burn and salt a land of a country conquered so it becomes a wasteland - unusable to their enemies who could use that land for supplies during a time of war. These meanings are not considered in the different branches of annihilationism where all such words have only one meaning – extermination into non-being.

For example Ps 37:35-36 - means do not fear the dead coming back to take vengeance. So to put in a modern manner using modern day silly Hollywood style ling-go: Freddy Kruger - Michael Myers cannot come back from the dead and hurt you. The text is stating the fact that the wicked dead will not come back again and cause harm to the living. That is but one part of the symbolism of this text.

Please also note this about symbolism and metaphoric phrases used in the bible by what God said in Ezekiel 21:4, "Because I will cut off both righteous and wicked from you, therefore My sword shall go out of its sheath against all flesh from south to north…”

Now, let’s apply how annihilationist traditional defines what ‘cut off’ means to this text - "Because I will cut off (Annihilate into oblivion) both righteous and wicked from you…"

God says he will do the same to both righteous and wicked in this verse. If annihilation applies to the wicked – it must apply to the righteous in the same measure. However, it does not mean or covey annihilation. In fact, the Hebrew word translated ‘Cut off’ refers to cutting in two – dividing, separating – not annihilation into oblivion when used in such context regarding judgments. In other contexts- it means joining oneself into a covenant with someone.

Look at Ezekiel 20:47, 48, 49 for an example on use symbol of flame/fire to point out a truth hard to express in human language: "…and say to the forest of the South, 'Hear the word of the LORD! Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree and every dry tree in you; the blazing flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be scorched by it. 48 All flesh shall see that I, the LORD, have kindled it; it shall not be quenched.49 Then I said, "Ah, Lord GOD! They say of me, 'Does he not speak parables?"

Does fire and smoke only mean annihilation into oblivion? Or refer to something else? In Luke 3:16 John the Baptist told that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire – does that mean annihilation? What of the 3000 in the book of Acts – where they annihilated into oblivion because tongues of fire rested upon them? What of the Pillar of Fire and Smoke whom led the children of Israel in the wilderness? Now, if you can discern figures of speech elsewhere in the bible – why can’t you see them in the text you cited as the parable of speech intends?

(Read again Rev 14:11 for further illustrations of biblical symbolism and metaphors regarding smoke/fire)

Next,

It is truly amazing that all the bible passages/verses which objectively describe God’s character, nature, and attributes cannot be strung together in any manner to say any other thing other than what each objectively states about God. However, bible verses used by annihilationist tradition can indeed be strung together along with inserted definitions and innuendos to say just about anything.

If annihilationist traditional interpretations which are used do not line up and cannot be reconcile with the bible verses that objectively describe God’s character, nature, and attributes, then something is amiss, and such interpretations are invalid. Have you taken the time needed to explore who God is from the bible to see if they reconcile with who God is? God is unlike us in all venues.

If you would have, you would have discovered that they cannot be reconciled to how the biblical record objectively defines God. Therefore, the verses you cited mean something else entirely. It is the annihilationist who strings bible verses together, changing metaphors, analogies, and word meanings to fit the traditional ‘what best serves mans’ theology.

Looking at the typical line of reasoning that your Tradition imposes on the verses you cite, they do not reconcile with who God is as He reveals about Himself from the bible. How so - For such interpretations of scripture to be true, they would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God must deny himself in order to be able to reconcile to the views of either annihilationism or universalism; therefore, such interpretations’ are way off the mark. They do not square with who God is. Rather they square with what people think best for themselves about how God should react to them.

Much like asking all convicted prison inmates what is the best sentence they would like and then having the judge sentence them according to their wishes. I worked in the human corrections field. A volunteer asked this of a group of inmates where I used to work. The results were like this: most wanted off the hook, promising never to do bad again, others wanted to punish their accusers once let go, those facing life sentences preferred either being let go or executed quickly instead. None thought the punishment they received fit the finite crime they committed. All of the inmates participating were repeat offenders and all accused the judge as unfair, unjust…

Now back to the subject of scriptures used to support Annihilationism:

Looking at the typical line of reasoning Annihilationist Tradition imposes on the verses cited in your post about Psalms 37 – etc.. Katabole, such interpretations do not reconcile with who God is as He reveals about Himself from the bible.

How so…

For God to exterminate into non-being oblivion would prove beyond all reasonable doubt that God is truly partial. How: by annihilating the life in one person then granting life to another. In other words, this proves that does God indeed revokes his own gift of life (Acts 17:25) by taking it away due to annihilation showing preference to another to live. Also such extermination proves that God cannot keep/fulfill his word as spoken in Gen 1:26 and that God is not truly righteously just to the just and to the unjust. To do as annihilationist insist, God must deny who He is – a God of profound Justice. If God annihilates the devil wins…

In fact the term used by annihilationist, conditional immortality, itself suggest God shows partiality to beings he purposed and designed to share part in his eternal image so that they can mirror i.e. be a reflection how God governs righteously, etc, wherever such were assigned! For conditional immortality be true it must result in God denying himself, his word, his gifts, by causing God to be absolutely partial in granting life to one and exterminating into non-existence another. God would need to deny who He is to do so.

To avoid all unrighteousness, God squares things by making a place to confine the Devil and his minions forever. No violation to anything God said, promised, or given is revoked. Instead, it is justly applied to all in ways too profound to go into great details here.

Here is Another Example of misapplied Annihilationist reasoning:

Mat 23:14, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore you will receive greater condemnation.” NKJV

Notice Jesus’ words to the Pharisees regarding their eternal end. Jesus stated they would receive a greater condemnation based on what they had sown during their earthly lives. Therefore, how could they receive a greater condemnation if all are annihilated into non-being for what they had sown? How is that possible if all are equally annihilated into no-being?

Annihilationist, to get around this, contend that that God just temporarily turns up the heat on these people to whom Jesus spoke more than any others in the same fire before exterminating them. However, this does not jive due to the fact that this goes against Jesus’ own words spoken because how can greater be greater if all are annihilated (cease to be) equally?

In fact, how does the annihilationist tradition square with God giving to each according to what they have done if the final result is equality of extermination? Equal punishment is unjust and proves partiality, however, degrees of just punishment is just and impartial. By such annihilationist traditional reasoning on resulting equality of oblivion would indeed prove that God is unjust and partial. How? Let’s look further into this:

Traditional annihilationism believes humanity sins can be classed on levels of severity. Their Tradition states, that the punishment does not fit the crime. If that is so, then one very minor sin committed by a person being punished 1000 years in the current hell before the final Judgment and then another person committing the same exact minor sin is punished 10 years before the final judgment and then both burned up in the lake of fire. The year difference shows clear partiality.

In fact, for the sake of mercy, and love, why punish any at all, if not even a Holy God can bear looking upon suffering, then why not just blast every sinner into oblivion immediately after death? Why torture them at all? What good does that do since the punishment does not fit a finite crime not deserving annihilation? How can that really be Just?

Instead, what proves mercy and real love is a just honest life sentence based on the truth about God and the person convicted - not on extinction. That is where you need to look, not stringing bible verses together using annihilationist or universalist traditional logic and emotional rhetoric. In Fact, The annihilationist tradition would send people off into oblivion for the most minor of sins because according to their traditions – sin can be classed as minor to major due to man’s finiteness.

Granting such the rest of oblivion also denies what God said himself that He would not do – grant peace/rest to the wicked, or acquit them in any form. Therefore the passages annihilationist traditionally interpret their way do not line up with God’s character, nature, or attributes. The meanings of these passages cited on page 26 are quite different than what such Tradition claims. However, many annihilationist would not even consider this as even a remote possibility: That it is impossible for God to deny Himself.

It is due to His own deep great Love that God does not exterminate into nothingness or blindly allow all into heaven either. God does not force people to convert or repent in this life – he asks and persuades, leaving the individual to deicide their course instead. This is indeed just and that is one example of how just and righteous God is. That is one reason why he gives accordingly to what one has done. Forcing someone, after they die in the afterlife, to enter heaven to be with God whom they do not like would be unjust to the person as well as make God unjust to his own justice and love.

Isaiah 26:10 states the principle clearly why God does not grant afterlife salvation to all. Doing so, the person reverts back to sin that manipulates and games God’s own character traits for one’s personal benefit as he/she will not recognize the Majesty of God. Only during this mortal life can change justly happen through persuading which activates faith. God then justly invades a person and changes them inside out – prepping them for Heaven. There is no afterlife salvation.

from this link -- http://www.sbts.edu/resources/files/201 ... mohler.pdf -- from Page 11

...Ominous signs of evangelical compromise are already apparent. In 1990, the evangelical news magazine Christianity Today trumpeted what some have called “The Evangelical Megashift.” Robert Brow argued that evangelical theology has shifted from an Augustinian and Reformation foundation to a doctrine of God far more congenial to modernity. Brow declared and championed this theological revolution. What will this revolution reject? Rendered obsolete and out of step are such central doctrines as substitionary atonement, any penal understanding of the cross, forensic justification, imputed righteousness, and eventually the notion of hell. This revolution has declared out of date a notion of God as omnipotent, omniscient, and sovereign. Brow is quite confident of the eventual victory of this theological revolution. As he stated, “A whole generation of young people has breathed this air.”15

Well Sudsy you have convinced that exterminating into non-existence is the best most absolutely superior from of Love and Mercy around.

So superior in fact that we should implement the same acts on those that suffer and begin mirroring this most superior act of love, kindness, mercy to those suffering from disabilities as well as the developmentally disable right now

Isn’t the love of annihilationism so wonderfully grand! So Superior in its mirroring God great Love and Mercy - is it not?

Pinnock mirrors all major leaders of conditionalism in his statement that, “…Let me says at the outset that I consider the concept of Hell as endless torment in body and mind an outrageous doctrine, a theological and moral enormity, a bad doctrine of the tradition that needs to be changed.”

You really desire to have God deny himself and all that he is as the living God who denies not his gift he gave called life just to appease you and annihilationist or else you will not follow him? Are You threatening God????

Please note Pinnock’s words not mine: "Let me say at the outset that I consider the concept… that needs changed”