Why a sacrifice of thr innocent?

[CeT-To]

okay umm... why is reconciliation found in the death of God's Son? Why is this the only way? as Paul says "For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son"

[jlay]

Not to sound snarky, but why is 4 the answer to, "what is 2+2?"

More later.

[CeT-To]

hahah i actually had the same snarky remark in my head but more of this way " why is 2+2 the answer to 4" and im trying to figure out what value Christ death is that leads to the conclusion of us being reconciled..but umm i just can't seem to find the connection :/ im trying to understand.. honest.

-Why was the only way to reconcile us to God through the blood of Jesus Christ?

This is what i know Jesus Christ + sacrifice on the cross as sin = Human reconciliation to God

See what i don't understand is why Jesus christ + sacrifice on the cross as sin EQUALS human reconciliation to God. I don't see the connection

[CeT-To]

Ok here is my line of thinking now. I hope some one can answer my question at the end or maybe prove me wrong in any of the lines of thinking that i had.

Sin is an offense to God

The penalty of Sin is spiritual and physical death

God is infinite thus the degree of the offense is infinite

Thus we are tortured in Sheol ( then to the lake of fire ) for eternity. Unless one has faith in God who then goes to Sheol paradise

Okay now-

Jesus is the sinless manGod (fully man and fully God) that has infinite value.

He spiritually and physically dies instead of us, He can do this because his infinite value makes his sacrifice able to encompass everyone who believes in him.

Does this mean that ~ Infinite offense to God MINUS infinite value of Jesus Christ's sacrificial death = Sin payed?

From what i recall ~ infinity - infinity = infinity

So imagine the first infinity is Sin and the second infinity is God's sacrifice, which then will be the infinity that it will equal to? Sin or God's sacrifice? and why?

[B. W.]

Sigh, no . So Christ died so that he could show us the physical and spiritual punishment or repercussions of Sin, but how does His act in the cross cleanse us?

1 John 4:9-10, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." ESV

You could say, it reminds the Lord of his great love that sent His own beloved, even though His beloved would be mocked, scorned, abused cruelly unto death, it was the only way to cause humanity to see sin – how it slays innocence. He loved us that much. Question, would you send you’re most beloved to be savagely mocked, scorned, cruelly abused unto death to expose sin for what it is and does – slay love, abuse love, manipulate love – to reconcile people back into the fold? That was God’s love – He first loved us…

By seeing this through believing in Christ, the beloved, we are cleansed from our own personal slaying of innocence by faith. He sends His Holy Spirit into our lives for without the shedding of blood there can be no remission/cleansing of sin. Why? We can’t see what sin is and does, we can’t cleanse ourselves from our own doings, we cannot make ourselves right before God’s eyes, unless we come to Christ and be cleansed, healed so to speak.

The shedding of blood reminds God of this own promise found in Jeremiah 31:34c: "And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." ESV

The reason why the blood cleanses is, "…(God) I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:34 ESV

The reason why the blood cleanses is for by it, "…declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity...." (Please note that the word translated forgive contains in its meaning the idea of releasing; hence, releasing one from their iniquity - note John 8:12, 36c)

The angel of death passes over us and we become united with the Lord, resurrected into new life… There is more and a few clues I left below the AMG quote concerning the word propitiation used in 1 John 4:9, 10c.

AMG Word Studies states this about the translated word propitiation:

hilasmós; gen. hilasmoú, masc. noun from hiláskomai (strong's 2433), to propitiate, expiate. Propitiation. The benefit of Christ's blood for the sinner in the acceptance by the Father...

The periphrastic use of the verb is found also in Heb 8:12, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." The expression here is híleōs ésomai (híleōs [2436], merciful; ésomai, [fut. act. indic. of eimí {1510}, to be], I shall be), "I shall be merciful" (a.t.). The Lord Jesus is declaring here that He, through the sacrifice of Himself, will become the means of the removal of the sins of His people and of their status of unrighteousness or enmity with God.

Hilasmós, found only in 1 Jn 2:2 and 1 Jn 4:10, is equivalent to hilastḗrion (2435) as used by Paul in Rom 3:25. It is the means of putting away sin and establishing righteousness. God is never presented as changing His mind toward the sinner or the sin that estranged the sinner from Him. Man is never said to be able to appease God with any of his offerings, as in the heathen religions where man offered gifts in an attempt to accomplish this.

In the NT, we find man incapable of offering anything to placate God because He is a righteous God. For Him to accept sinful man, it was necessary for God, not man, to do something to deliver man from his sin. This is the reason why, in 1Jn_2:1, we find Jesus Christ presented as the righteous One. God demands that the payment for sin be made once and for all. It is Christ Himself, therefore, who becomes hilasmós, the means which is acceptable to God to satisfy His righteousness or His justice. This does not merely appease God but provides the means for the redemption of man. Christ is the propitiation which supplies the method of deliverance from our sin and, being reconciled to God, we are acceptable for fellowship with God. Christ became the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice for our sins. John adds that this sacrifice of Christ was a historical event. Jesus Christ does not need to shed his blood and die again for any new believers because it is all-encompassing. Nobody's sins have ever been permanently removed in any other way except by means of the Lord Jesus Christ and His death on Calvary's cross. OT sacrifices pointed toward Christ's sacrifice, which is an objective accomplishment, a finished work for the whole world as a basis from which individual forgiveness and cleansing from sin proceeds.

The virtue of the propitiation extends beyond the subjective experience of those who actually are made partakers of grace. 1Jn_2:2 presents the propitiation of Christ as vividly personal: "He is our propitiation" (a.t.). The life of Christ as well as His death is involved, His person as well as His work. The use of the word hilasmós by John refers not only to the process of the atonement, but also to its final achievement as a fact: "He is the propitiation"; "His blood is cleansing us from all sin" (a.t. [1Jn 1:7]). It is more than a completed act. The propitiation abides as a living, present energy residing in the personality of Christ Himself. According to John, therefore, the propitiation is the cleansing from sin rather than merely the work of justification before God or the acceptance of the sinner as if he had never sinned.

Paul associates Christ's propitiation as more closely connected with the righteousness of the Law. In John, love and propitiation become interchangeable realities necessary to one another, with one explaining the other, even lost in one another. John defines love by propitiation, and propitiation by love: "In this have we come to know what love is, that He for us laid down His life" (a.t. [1 Jn 3:16); "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). When John speaks of God as love, he refers to Him as the means of reconciliation of man to God. See hiláskomai (2433), to propitiate, to reconcile to oneself; hilastḗrion (2435), propitiator, mercy seat; híleōs (2436), mercy, merciful, propitious.

John 17:3, "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." ESV

John 17:23, 24, 25, 26a, "I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them." ESV

How does the blood of Christ cleanses us? It marks us as his willing vessels, willing to be cleansed by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit changing us out of darkness into His marvelous light! Through the bood we are released from our sins - forgiven...

1 Peter 2:9, "But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light..." ESV

This is but a small part of whu and how the Blood cleanses. There is more that others may would like to share and add to this to help you understand...
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[Gman]

Okay, now I understand why it was done in the OT times. But why is the shed of Christ's blood effective in cleansing sin off us? How is the death of one man able to cover all our death sentences? Is it because Jesus is God thus He has an infinite value which in turn allows his death to pay for all of our death sentences since the value that we have is finite? I am trying to find a connection.

Sorry for such a dumb question, its just one of those things that i never fully comprehended which i now want to understand.

I guess you could say how many times does it take for God to die because when we sin we crucify Christ over and over again Heb 6:6. In other words when we sin, not only does it cause spiritual death but physical death as well. That is why Christ had to die. To show us physically what happens to a person (including ourselves) when we sin.

Makes sense?

Sigh, no . So Christ died so that he could show us the physical and spiritual punishment or repercussions of Sin, but how
does His act in the cross cleanse us?

Because Christ died for you. He expresses his love toward you. Basically our sins killed him. Think of it this way, by default we have our spiritual train of sins that is about to hit us and kill us. But what does God do? Just before the train of sin hits us, He jumps in the train tracks and pushes us out of the way of the train and takes the hit for us. In other words, He dies or takes the penalty for our sins... Sin equals death, so the only way to correct it is to repay it with another clean sinless life. A life for a life. This way we have a LEGAL right to stand before Him with no guilt.

But we have to acknowledge this gift and except it. If we try to stand before God with our own good works, we will be destroyed because God's love and goodness would overpower our own works. We can never achieve it on our own.

[Gman]

That is how he cleanses us.. He sacrifices Himself for us. When we see what God did for us, and how great his love is for us, we (hopefully) will acknowledge His love and THAT is the love that cleanses us. We (hopefully) won't sin anymore when we see how He died for us. Love cleanses all...

This is the greatness of God's love for mankind.. It cannot be duplicated. This is what separates the men from the boys..

[CeT-To]

Hmmm i think I'm starting to get it now. So it was because Jesus was sinless ( and God) that he alone could have taken on this burden through all the pain and still make it till the end. Also jesus sacrifice for paying sin now allowed God to get back into man, which in turn helps him start to eventually sin less and less with God's help. So how come his sacrifice payed for all our sins? Obviously some one had to pay for it but how come He could pay for All of our sins?

By the way if I've said anything wrong so far, don't hesitate to tell me.

[CeT-To]

Helloo? No body knows?

[Gman]

Hmmm i think I'm starting to get it now. So it was because Jesus was sinless ( and God) that he alone could have taken on this burden through all the pain and still make it till the end. Also jesus sacrifice for paying sin now allowed God to get back into man, which in turn helps him start to eventually sin less and less with God's help. So how come his sacrifice payed for all our sins? Obviously some one had to pay for it but how come He could pay for All of our sins?

By the way if I've said anything wrong so far, don't hesitate to tell me.

Yes I think you got it.. There is another way you could look at it too. In the OT times, Abraham offered his son Isaac to God for sins, likewise God offers His son for our sins.. It's just another way of paying back a debt.

Why? Because God wants us to worship Him guilt free.. Like credit card debt, then someone comes along and pays it for you.. You are now debt free. It's not like you keep having to pay it, God covered it a long time ago.

I don't really know how else to explain it.. Sorry.

[CeT-To]

Ahh dw about it Gman every piece of info helps! So i thank you ! ! I guess i'm looking for the philosophical premise type of answer ..hmmm maybe i should post the question on William Lane Craig's site Reasonable faith.

[Gman]

Ahh dw about it Gman every piece of info helps! So i thank you ! ! I guess i'm looking for the philosophical premise type of answer ..hmmm maybe i should post the question on William Lane Craig's site Reasonable faith.

Hmm. What do you mean by a philosophical premise?

[CeT-To]

Like a logical way of thinking of the person of Jesus and his Attributes as God through steps which allows him to be ultimate sacrifice and pay for ALL of humankind's sins.

[Gman]

Like a logical way of thinking of the person of Jesus and his Attributes as God through steps which allows him to be ultimate sacrifice and pay for ALL of humankind's sins.

Our examples aren't good enough?

I think a lot of it has to deal with suffering. That God loves us so much that He would die for us in a sacrificial system.... Our sin's caused His death, which He graciously gave to us..

[CeT-To]

No no! its not that your examples aren't good enough its just i can't seem to put them in a logical order to arrive at the answer of cleansing sin (past, present & future) because of His sacrifice.