"The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands." (Psalm 19:1)
https://discussions.godandscience.org/
1 John 4:9-10, "In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins." ESVCeT-To wrote:Sigh, no
John 17:3, "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." ESVhilasmós; gen. hilasmoú, masc. noun from hiláskomai (strong's 2433), to propitiate, expiate. Propitiation. The benefit of Christ's blood for the sinner in the acceptance by the Father...
The periphrastic use of the verb is found also in Heb 8:12, "For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more." The expression here is híleōs ésomai (híleōs [2436], merciful; ésomai, [fut. act. indic. of eimí {1510}, to be], I shall be), "I shall be merciful" (a.t.). The Lord Jesus is declaring here that He, through the sacrifice of Himself, will become the means of the removal of the sins of His people and of their status of unrighteousness or enmity with God.
Hilasmós, found only in 1 Jn 2:2 and 1 Jn 4:10, is equivalent to hilastḗrion (2435) as used by Paul in Rom 3:25. It is the means of putting away sin and establishing righteousness. God is never presented as changing His mind toward the sinner or the sin that estranged the sinner from Him. Man is never said to be able to appease God with any of his offerings, as in the heathen religions where man offered gifts in an attempt to accomplish this.
In the NT, we find man incapable of offering anything to placate God because He is a righteous God. For Him to accept sinful man, it was necessary for God, not man, to do something to deliver man from his sin. This is the reason why, in 1Jn_2:1, we find Jesus Christ presented as the righteous One. God demands that the payment for sin be made once and for all. It is Christ Himself, therefore, who becomes hilasmós, the means which is acceptable to God to satisfy His righteousness or His justice. This does not merely appease God but provides the means for the redemption of man. Christ is the propitiation which supplies the method of deliverance from our sin and, being reconciled to God, we are acceptable for fellowship with God. Christ became the vicarious and expiatory sacrifice for our sins. John adds that this sacrifice of Christ was a historical event. Jesus Christ does not need to shed his blood and die again for any new believers because it is all-encompassing. Nobody's sins have ever been permanently removed in any other way except by means of the Lord Jesus Christ and His death on Calvary's cross. OT sacrifices pointed toward Christ's sacrifice, which is an objective accomplishment, a finished work for the whole world as a basis from which individual forgiveness and cleansing from sin proceeds.
The virtue of the propitiation extends beyond the subjective experience of those who actually are made partakers of grace. 1Jn_2:2 presents the propitiation of Christ as vividly personal: "He is our propitiation" (a.t.). The life of Christ as well as His death is involved, His person as well as His work. The use of the word hilasmós by John refers not only to the process of the atonement, but also to its final achievement as a fact: "He is the propitiation"; "His blood is cleansing us from all sin" (a.t. [1Jn 1:7]). It is more than a completed act. The propitiation abides as a living, present energy residing in the personality of Christ Himself. According to John, therefore, the propitiation is the cleansing from sin rather than merely the work of justification before God or the acceptance of the sinner as if he had never sinned.
Paul associates Christ's propitiation as more closely connected with the righteousness of the Law. In John, love and propitiation become interchangeable realities necessary to one another, with one explaining the other, even lost in one another. John defines love by propitiation, and propitiation by love: "In this have we come to know what love is, that He for us laid down His life" (a.t. [1 Jn 3:16); "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins" (1 Jn 4:10). When John speaks of God as love, he refers to Him as the means of reconciliation of man to God. See hiláskomai (2433), to propitiate, to reconcile to oneself; hilastḗrion (2435), propitiator, mercy seat; híleōs (2436), mercy, merciful, propitious.
Because Christ died for you. He expresses his love toward you. Basically our sins killed him. Think of it this way, by default we have our spiritual train of sins that is about to hit us and kill us. But what does God do? Just before the train of sin hits us, He jumps in the train tracks and pushes us out of the way of the train and takes the hit for us. In other words, He dies or takes the penalty for our sins... Sin equals death, so the only way to correct it is to repay it with another clean sinless life. A life for a life. This way we have a LEGAL right to stand before Him with no guilt.CeT-To wrote:Sigh, noGman wrote:I guess you could say how many times does it take for God to die because when we sin we crucify Christ over and over again Heb 6:6. In other words when we sin, not only does it cause spiritual death but physical death as well. That is why Christ had to die. To show us physically what happens to a person (including ourselves) when we sin.CeT-To wrote:Okay, now I understand why it was done in the OT times. But why is the shed of Christ's blood effective in cleansing sin off us? How is the death of one man able to cover all our death sentences? Is it because Jesus is God thus He has an infinite value which in turn allows his death to pay for all of our death sentences since the value that we have is finite? I am trying to find a connection.
Sorry for such a dumb question, its just one of those things that i never fully comprehended which i now want to understand.
Makes sense?
does His act in the cross cleanse us?
Yes I think you got it.. There is another way you could look at it too. In the OT times, Abraham offered his son Isaac to God for sins, likewise God offers His son for our sins.. It's just another way of paying back a debt.CeT-To wrote:Hmmm i think I'm starting to get it now. So it was because Jesus was sinless ( and God) that he alone could have taken on this burden through all the pain and still make it till the end. Also jesus sacrifice for paying sin now allowed God to get back into man, which in turn helps him start to eventually sin less and less with God's help. So how come his sacrifice payed for all our sins? Obviously some one had to pay for it but how come He could pay for All of our sins?
By the way if I've said anything wrong so far, don't hesitate to tell me.
! I guess i'm looking for the philosophical premise type of answer ..hmmm maybe i should post the question on William Lane Craig's site Reasonable faith.Hmm. What do you mean by a philosophical premise?CeT-To wrote:Ahh dw about it Gman every piece of info helps! So i thank you !
Our examples aren't good enough?CeT-To wrote:Like a logical way of thinking of the person of Jesus and his Attributes as God through steps which allows him to be ultimate sacrifice and pay for ALL of humankind's sins.
