Evidence for God from Science

PL, appreciate your explanation of the preterists view. Some things I'm not understanding in regards to your explanation.

Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
-In the context of ressurection you are speaking of. What is the mark? What is the 1,000 years? Is the beheading literal or symbolic? If literal, what kind of resurrection are we speaking of here?

5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead? Obvioulsy we are still in the same context. The dead is also in the context of those beheaded above. Is this physical or spiritual dead. When is this thousand years?

6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will dreign with Him for a thousand years.7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be areleased from his prison, 8 and will come out to adeceive the nations which are in the bfour corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to dgather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they acame up on the 1broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (What is the city, and when did those attacking it get destroyed?)

10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the blake of fire and brimstone, where the cbeast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Has this happened yet? Is the Devil the prince of this world or has he already been thrown into the lake of fire?)

Judgment at the Throne of God

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence bearth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, (Is this death literal or figurative?) the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is cthe book of life; and the dead awere judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
-We are still in the same context. Has this happened yet? If so, what is it referring to?
And the sea gave up the dead (Is this a literal death or figurative. If figurative, what is the sea?)
which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them caccording to their deeds. (Is this death also figurative? If so, what do death and Hades refer to?
Then death and Hades were thrown into bthe lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in athe book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Has this already happened?

puritan lad wrote:Separate from the flaws that have been exhibited in this system as whole in another thread, Dispensationalism has some endtimes difficulties as well:

· Where does the Bible say that Jesus will reign “on earth” for 1,000 years? Why is the “1,000 year reign” mentioned only in Revelation 20, the most “symbolic” book in the Bible?

· Since we “literal” interpretations, why not start with the time frame references? What does “shortly” mean (Revelation 1:1)? How about “near” (Revelation 1:3)? How about “about to” (Revelation 3:10)? What about “this generation” (Matthew 24:34)?

· Why were the First Century Churches of Asia concerned with 21st Century events? Why would Jesus promise to deliver the First Century Church of Philadelphia from events that none of them would ever live to see (Revelation 3:10)?

· How many resurrections will there be, and when will they take place? Why does Jesus have the righteous and the wicked being resurrected at the same time (John 5:28-29)? Why did Jesus say that the righteous would be resurrected “on the last day” (John 6:39-44)? What happened to that 1,007 year period after that?

· If 1 Thess. 4:17 is the pre-trib rapture, then that means that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection, correct? Yet the “First Resurrection” of Revelation 20:4-5 includes “the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.” Aren’t these supposed to be the tribulation saints? How can they have a part in the first resurrection if the first resurrection takes place before the tribulation even starts?

· Where does the Bible mention a Pre-Trib Rapture? How about a third coming of Christ? How about a 7 year tribulation period?

· Where does the Bible mention a third Jewish Temple?

· If premillennialism is correct, then why does Ezekiel mention animal sacrifices after the “millennium” (after Gog and Magog – Ezekiel 45:18-25)? What is the purpose of these sacrifices? Ezekiel says that they will be "to make atonement on behalf of the house of Israel" (Ezekiel 45:17). Hasn't the work of Christ already done that?

· Is Matthew 16:28 the literal Second Advent, or should we understand it as something else? If the former, then are some of Jesus’ listeners still alive?

· In Isaiah 19:1, did Jehovah literal ride into Egypt on a cloud?

· Why did Peter say that Joel’s prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) saw it’s fulfillment on the Day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21)?

· Where does the 2,000 gap in Daniel’s 70 week prophecy come from (Daniel 9:24-27)?

· What kind of chain will be used to bind the angel Satan (Revelation 20:1-3)?

Where does the 30 year gap in Daniel's 70 week prophecy come from (Daniel 9:24-27)?

jlay,

For the sake of length and readability, I'll split these up.

jlay wrote:Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
-In the context of ressurection you are speaking of. What is the mark?

The "mark" is figurative of allegience, especiall in worship. God's people are marked by obedience to His Word (See Deuteronomy 6:8 for the basis of John's symbolism here). In Revelation, it is the mark of Caesar worship (John 19:15)

jlay wrote:What is the 1,000 years?

It depends. Amillennialists believe that it is symbolic of the current "church age" (for lack of a better description). Postmillennialist hold that it is a future period of greater blessings (before the Second Advent) upon the earth when inthe fulness of the gentiles has come, and the Jews are grafted back in (Romans 11:24-26). I tend toward the latter.

jlay wrote:Is the beheading literal or symbolic? If literal, what kind of resurrection are we speaking of here?

We believe that the Great Tribulation happened in the first Century (Matthew 24:21, 34) during the Jewish and Roman persecution of the church. There was certainly literal beheadings during this time (Paul). As for the resurrection, it is both. One of the amazing pictures throughout revelation is that we are woshipping Christ along with the heavenly saints. We both have part in the first resurrection and have eternal life, though we on earth have yet to attain the full fruit of this resurrection.

jlay wrote:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead? Obvioulsy we are still in the same context. The dead is also in the context of those beheaded above. Is this physical or spiritual dead. When is this thousand years?

The rest of the dead are not those who were beheaded above, because all of those came to life to reign with Christ (Revelation 20:4) whereas these did not (Revelation 20:5). The rest of the dead will be resurrected for judgment at the Second Advent (John 5:29)

jlay wrote:6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will dreign with Him for a thousand years.7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be areleased from his prison, 8 and will come out to adeceive the nations which are in the bfour corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to dgather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they acame up on the 1broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. (What is the city, and when did those attacking it get destroyed?)

We hold that we are either in the millenium now, or that it is yet future, so we aren't quite sure exactly what these cities are that attack the Heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:22). Of course, the premillennialist view has led to some embarrassing assumptions (Soviet Union) by trying to make it a literal fulfillment of Ezekiel's War. (See The Past Fulfillment of Ezekiel's War.

As for the future details, I guess we won't really know until it happens.

jlay wrote:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the blake of fire and brimstone, where the cbeast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Has this happened yet? Is the Devil the prince of this world or has he already been thrown into the lake of fire?)

The Devil was bound and defeated at Christ's First Advent. However, he still seeks to grab as much of the world as he can, until his final defeat at the end of history. In the end, he will face the same judgment as the "rest of the dead".

jlay wrote:Judgment at the Throne of God

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence bearth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, (Is this death literal or figurative?) the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is cthe book of life; and the dead awere judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
-We are still in the same context. Has this happened yet? If so, what is it referring to?

And the sea gave up the dead (Is this a literal death or figurative. If figurative, what is the sea?)
which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them caccording to their deeds. (Is this death also figurative? If so, what do death and Hades refer to?
Then death and Hades were thrown into bthe lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in athe book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Has this already happened?

This has not happened yet. This will be the final judgment at the end of history.

puritan lad wrote:

jlay wrote:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the blake of fire and brimstone, where the cbeast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Has this happened yet? Is the Devil the prince of this world or has he already been thrown into the lake of fire?)

The Devil was bound and defeated at Christ's First Advent. However, he still seeks to grab as much of the world as he can, until his final defeat at the end of history. In the end, he will face the same judgment as the "rest of the dead".

Is the Devil bound or is he not? Is he defeated or is he not? Was Christ not able to completely defeat him at His first advent?

puritan lad wrote:This is one example of where the selective and arbitrary "literalism" of Dispensationalism gets them off the mark. This is a problem only if you assume that the first resurrection is the last day's bodily resurrection. But it's not. Our final resurrection take place at the last day (Daniel 12:13, John 6:44), not before some earthly millennium. The first resurrection is simply salvation…

....(John 5:24-25) (Colossians 2:12-13) [/(Revelation 20:6)

…..As believers sealed by Christ's blood, the second death has no power over us. Not only that. but we becomes kings and priests in Christ's kingdom, and that is a current, not merely a future, reality. (Ephesians 1:20-22, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 1:13; 1 Peter 2:9).

Not precisely: "Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

The ones that share are indentified:

Revelation 20:4 identifies those from the first resurrection: Rev 20:4, "Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." NASB

Notice both reign for 1000 years, or ages, or periods of time refer to a specific group of people coming out of great terrible time. If this occurred at 70 AD – where are the resurrected ones living with Christ on earth when Rev 19:20 Christ rules with a rod of iron? Has this happened yet?

Also John 5:24-25 can also be read to mean the last Resurrection as you forgot to mention John 5:28, 29c and verse 29 can mean one or even two events as well. As for Colossians 2:12-13 there is a context that expresses something else other than what you are allegorizing into the text – you forgot Col 2:8 and the subject of sin. Also John 6:44 states – Last Day which means something after Rev 20:6

Look at Dan 12:13, "But go thou thy way till the end be; and thou shalt rest, and shalt stand up to thy lot, at the end of the days." JPS The phrase – end of days again refers to an event that happens after Rev 20:6.

PL, you can make a case from these that the events of 70 AD have nothing to do with Rev 19:15, Rev 20:4, 5, 6 as having happened. Jesus Christ is not ruling from Jerusalem in resurrected bodily form ruling the surviving nations with a rod of Iron.

If you try to allegorize from this that Christ rules by the spirit from the Supremacy of the Church – thru we kings and priest believers – we are in sorry shape...

Your statement: “As believers sealed by Christ's blood, the second death has no power over us. Not only that. but we becomes kings and priests in Christ's kingdom, and that is a current, not merely a future, reality. (Ephesians 1:20-22, Ephesians 2:6, Colossians 1:13; 1 Peter 2:9).”

I would agree with, however, the manner in which you appear to imply from this, that we are to take over the world, so that Jesus can come I disagree with. When does Christ need human works to set up and rule with a rod iron for him thu the CHURCH? Did not Satan offer the nations of the world of men to Jesus and Jesus refused?

Jesus as Head of the Church, and we as his body on earth, are to refuse this temptation also. Does Preterism resist this temptation to misuse the truths of the verses you cited not as intended – to reflect Christ like conduct and character and victory over sin and temptation in our daily living, governing accord his love where we have been assigned? Offering up prayers and petitions to the Lord for our neighbors, friends, and relations? Or handing over the world to Christ saying here it is Lord look at what we did - now you can come,!

As for supporting 4 different resurrections – I do not. Those are your points not mine. There are only two mentioned in the bible.

B.W. wrote:Please define the supremacy of the Church from the Preterist point of view...

puritan lad wrote:Not sure exactly what you are looking for. You will have to be more specific.

If the church is to rule during the 1000 year, ages, or periods of time and if that time is now as you believe it is. Then is it an Imperial Rule thru the Church as Kings and Priest that is needed to set the stage for Christ’s physical return so that then the Church hands it all to him? That is what I mean.

Next, as for Luke 21:20, 21,22, 23, 24 referring to Matt 24:15-20, you forgot Matt 24:14 besides that, with the wisdom that God has which is far greater than yours or mine in knowing these things, Jesus, thru these words can apply to 70 AD as well as too those in Rev 20:9 as a message with a double entrée for people in both time periods.

Please also note, that according to Rev 21 a new earth and heavens are made and then the Heavenly City joins heaven to earth and earth heaven. This Big city is never mentioned as ever being attacked by anyone because the wicked are in the lake of fire for eternity. There goes one of the points you mentioned to J and H as supporting preterism down the drain about the heaven city being attacked...

As for the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel and Jesus, this does not have to refer the ancient Roman invasion of Israel but can refer to something actually unknown to us at this time. Islam is an abomination that most certainly makes desolate and is definitely anti-Christ as well and there is the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount right now. The Abomination of Desolation can mean just about anything and this particular current time has not occurred yet because all the nations haven’t come against Israel, which the bible tells is regathered a second time back into the Land of Israel which sets the stage for Abomination of Desolation to be revealed.

Your view on Amos 9 is in error why? Because for you to be right Amos 9:14, 15 must be fulfilled. It has not because 70 -135 AD came and went (Amos 9:8, 9c) – it speaks of the Jewish people in verses Amos 9:14, 15 after being regathered back into their own Land God swore to their fathers – not the church. This shifting into the nations (Amos 9:8, 9c) would happened sometime after the event mentioned in Amos 9:11, 12, 13c. was established – which refers to Jesus’ ministry and work on the cross.

Finally reagrding lost nations:You can trace locations of long ago nations to actual geographic locations. The inspired writers used names in use then. Which makes sense – your point is moot concerning problems with dispensationalist interpretation due to nations mentioned in the bible not existing anymore as a proof they are wrong and only preterist are right. Very weak argument indeed. Cultist use that frame of argument against the Trinity by saying - the word Trinity is not spelled in the bible so it does not exist!

B.W. wrote:Luke 21:25-28 has not happened yet. Why did Jesus say 'generation' (verse 32) rather than 'YOU' in verse 32 and break continuity if his word if he meant only those standing there? The generation is a future one as days (plural) verse Luke 21:22 speaks of more than one days. The Day in verse 34 as now tuned into one Last DAY in Luke 21:34 differing from the other days in Luke 21:22. That particular generation Jesus mentions are the you’s in the next verse and does not have to imply those standing there the day he spoke this.

Sorry PL you answer to this quote is off – Jesus can use double entrée too. He is much wiser than we are. This Generation can mean a future one. It does not matter since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says. Your point is invalid.
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B.W. wrote:Notice both reign for 1000 years, or ages, or periods of time refer to a specific group of people coming out of great terrible time. If this occurred at 70 AD – where are the resurrected ones living with Christ on earth when Rev 19:20 Christ rules with a rod of iron? Has this happened yet?

Yes. The saints in heaven and on earth are currently ruling an reigning with Christ. In fact, John himself has already declared this to be a present reality to the seven churches in Asia (Revelation 1:6).

B.W. wrote:Look at Dan 12:13, "But go thou thy way till the end be; and thou shalt rest, and shalt stand up to thy lot, at the end of the days." JPS The phrase – end of days again refers to an event that happens after Rev 20:6.

No argument here. I'm not a full preterist.

B.W. wrote:Jesus Christ is not ruling from Jerusalem in resurrected bodily form ruling the surviving nations with a rod of Iron.

If you are talking about earthly Jerusalem, you are correct. Nor has Christ ever promised to do this.

B.W. wrote:I would agree with, however, the manner in which you appear to imply from this, that we are to take over the world, so that Jesus can come I disagree with. When does Christ need human works to set up and rule with a rod iron for him thu the CHURCH? Did not Satan offer the nations of the world of men to Jesus and Jesus refused?

No one said that Christ "needs" human works. He doesn't need us at all. But he does use us. He commissioned his church to do just that, claiming all authority in heaven and on earth. Contrary to Dispensationalism, Preterism teaches the success of the Great Commission un this church age.

"For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea." (Habakkuk 2:14)

B.W. wrote:As for supporting 4 different resurrections – I do not. Those are your points not mine. There are only two mentioned in the bible.

No, but you did cite 1 Thess. 4:17 in support of a pre-trib "rapture". Therefore, you must logically hold that 1 Thess. 4:16 is a pre-trib resurrection. But you also wrote, in regards to First Resurrection in Revelation 20:4, that it refers "to a specific group of people coming out of great terrible time", presumably the Great Tribulation. How can this be if it takes placed before the tribulation? Also, when do the millennium saint get resurrected?

B.W. wrote:If the church is to rule during the 1000 year, ages, or periods of time and if that time is now as you believe it is. Then is it an Imperial Rule thru the Church as Kings and Priest that is needed to set the stage for Christ’s physical return so that then the Church hands it all to him? That is what I mean.

True. We (Postmillennialists) believe that the world will more or less Christianized prior to Christ's return, with the gospel.

B.W. wrote:As for the Abomination of Desolation spoken by Daniel and Jesus, this does not have to refer the ancient Roman invasion of Israel but can refer to something actually unknown to us at this time. Islam is an abomination that most certainly makes desolate and is definitely anti-Christ as well and there is the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount right now. The Abomination of Desolation can mean just about anything and this particular current time has not occurred yet because all the nations haven’t come against Israel, which the bible tells is regathered a second time back into the Land of Israel which sets the stage for Abomination of Desolation to be revealed.

On what basis will you allow Luke 21:20-24 to refer to 70 AD, and reject the same for Matthew 24:15-21? Looks like the same event to me.

B.W. wrote:Sorry PL you answer to this quote is off – Jesus can use double entrée too. He is much wiser than we are. This Generation can mean a future one. It does not matter since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says. Your point is invalid.

I'm not questioning the wisdom of Christ. In fact, I think he is wise enough to communicate clearly what he means, and Matthew 24:34 is quite clear. It is you must force the text to refer to a future generation, but I see no basis for doing so. Certainly the Apostles who heard this would not have thought so.

Replacement ideology is old guard, old man news.. It has been replaced by the new man created by Jew and Gentile in Christ... It's the dawning of a new era. Either hop on board or forever drown in our what if's...

Christ is coming....

1 Th 4:14, 15, 16, 17, 18c, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.”

Preterits doctrine believes in a spiritual rapture in 1 Th 1:14-18 and not a physical one – correct PL?

As for Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-21concerning generations in light of the posted verse above – it does not make any difference since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says.

Your point remains invalid.
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B.W. wrote:Preterits doctrine believes in a spiritual rapture in 1 Th 1:14-18 and not a physical one – correct PL?

We don't believe in any "rapture" as currently defined. There is nothing "secret" about the events in 1 Thessalonians 4, nor is there any basis for looking at these events as an escape from any tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4 is simply the resurrection at the Second Coming, nothing more and nothing less. No mention anywhere of a tribulation period or an earthly millennium to follow.

B.W. wrote:As for Luke 21:20-24 and Matthew 24:15-21concerning generations in light of the posted verse above – it does not make any difference since the dead in Christ will be with Jesus in the Air and watch the ones mortal below doing what he says.

Your point remains invalid.

This is what we are debating. Why would you assume that 1 Thessalonian 4 has any direct relationship to the event of Matthew 24? My point is that all of the things Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24, including the Great Tribulation, are past history. A clear readong of Matthew 24:21, 34 certainly validates this.

puritan lad wrote:

B.W. wrote:Preterits doctrine believes in a spiritual rapture in 1 Th 1:14-18 and not a physical one – correct PL?

...We don't believe in any "rapture" as currently defined. There is nothing "secret" about the events in 1 Thessalonians 4, nor is there any basis for looking at these events as an escape from any tribulation.

1 Thessalonians 4 is simply the resurrection at the Second Coming, nothing more and nothing less. No mention anywhere of a tribulation period or an earthly millennium to follow.

This was to see which parts of Preterism you hail too as it is much like Dispensationalism, has so many different variations. Need to know this before going into next answer to next part regarding Luke and Matthew. This helps build and focus into next response..

I’ll get back to those a bit later on as I need to tend to other matters…
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Maybe it will help if I post a timeline of Orthodox Preterist events,

1.) Christ Death, resurrection, and ascension as the fulfillment of the Abrahamic (Galatians 3) and Davidic (Acts 2) Covenants.

2.) Christ's calls back the Israel of God at Pentecost (Acts 2), and begins to make them a light to the Gentiles. Israel hardened for the time being. Those who come to Christ participate in the First Resurrection.

3.) The Great Tribulation - The Roman and Jewish persecution of the church in the apostle's generation (Matthew 24:21, 34).

4.) The Abomination of Desolation (Matthew 24:15). Christ pours out his judgment upon those who crucified him and persecuted the saints by having the Roman Army trample the holy city. (Josephus gives great detail on this). The Beast (Rome - Daniel 2:40-43) destroys Jerusalem (The Great Harlot - Isaiah 1:21), avenging "all the righteous blood shed on earth" (Matthew 23:35, Revelation 17:6). In the days of this empire, Christ establishes His everlasting Kingdom (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 16:27-28).

5.) Christ, having protected His church through the tribulation, makes His kingdom grow like leaven, until it eventually fills the whole world (Habakkuk 2:14, Matthew 13:33).

6.) Once the fullness of the Gentiles has come in the "natural branches" will be grafted back in (Romans 11:24-26) during the "millenium", which may or may not be a literal 1,000 years. All continue to take part in the "First Resurrection". Amillennialists would have #5 and #6 as one ages, whereas postmillennialists keep them separate.

7.) Christ Returns. Bodily Resurrection of the righteous for eternal life, and the wicked for eternal judgment. (Daniel 12:13, John 5:28-29) History ends (1 Peter 3:10), Those still alive are "raptured" to be with Christ (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) and we live with Christ forever.

Not quite as fancy or as artistic as Scofield's charts, but I think they make more sense.

PL.. I see a little timeline in this theory, but not a complete one. Can you add this for us?

Thanks..

I'll try. I threw this together in a matter of minutes, so it's probably not comprehensive. Is there something in particular that you see missing or out of order?