Evidence for God from Science

You're welcome Derrick. I've done many of the evangelism staples. I've trained for evangelism explosion. I've done the 4 spiritual laws training and presentations. When I was in active ministry I regularly incorporated invitations into my messages. I've seen people make decisions and profess to accept Christ, and I'm glad for that. I've led people to Christ in one on one contexts as well. There are all kinds of motivators that I've appealed to in my life and practices. Chief among them is often a sense of guilt, fear or obligation. Those can be effective motivators and sometimes they're important. The last few years I've come to understand that there's extraordinary power and peace in just getting off the hamster wheel and getting to know Christ and hear His voice. The funny thing is, that having dropped the expectation of myself that God has somehow obligated me to speak to every person I see about Christ, I've actually probably communicated and spoken to more people just as a natural extension of normal relationship and when that happens it is generally more welcome and more effective. I don't believe God wants us to walk under the burden of performance based systems, even if they seem to be good things. He came to set us free from guilt, shame and condemnation. Try that. It's a much better way to live and walk.

Well quite honestly I feel like I don't have the gift to be involved in prison ministry. I've seen prison ministries on television and have heard about them on the radio, Internet and elsewhere. From what I've seen the people who speak to prisoners are part of one or more of three categories.

My point wasn't that you should try prision minsitry. My point was my friend who meets none of the characteristics you listed. In fact, in addition to being a computer geek, engineer, and introvert, he also has a speech impetiment.
Let me share this verse with you and what God said to David, The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.” 1 Samuel 16:7
When you make these kind of statements, what are you looking at?

if you are saved by Jesus Christ you have an amazing testimony. A lot of times people are lead to believe that they have to have some wild, heart tugging testimony. I knew a guy that had such a testimony. Former prisoner, great speaker. Captivating story. Only one problem. He was a phony. Just like he had scammed people all his life, he saw how to turn this Jesus thing into a scam. People fell for it left and right. Do you know how many people have a similar testimony to your own and feel that they aren't cut out for certain service because of it? I'm sorry Derrick, but that is a lie of the enemy. Maybe your testimony is more amazing than you are willing to claim. In fact, "God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are." 1 Cor 1:28

Remember that God may use us in ways that are contrary to our personal leanings. If you had told me 12 years ago that I would be leading children's worship and doing sidewalk sunday school programs to inner city kids, i'd have said you were crazy.
So, the question is, do you trust God to guide your paths? Because you've given all these reasons why 'you' can't do these things. And those are based on wordly qualities. None of which God needs. Also, do you trust God to lead you into the right fellowship? What if that fellowship is not based in studying apologetics?

And one more verse. In fact this was my daily verse when I flipped on my computer this morning. 2 tim 1:7

If I go out and cold witness to people they will pull out a gun and blow my head off! People are in no mood in this day and age to hear the gospel. They hate God and everything that has to do with Him.They are nothing but seeds of satan pure and simple. There is nothing I, you, nor anyone else can do that can win today's secularized, atheistic Obama loving environmentalist nutjobs.

If you feel so overconfident in your abilities, do me a favor, strole down to Bowling Green Ky. and try to witness to some of those dirtbags at Western Kentucky University. Those are some of the worst atheistic, satanistic hate filled lightning rods I've ever met in my entire life. And they are not just there they are nearly everyone within my age group and younger. There is no way you can reach them or even take part in reaching them. The only way they can be reached is for God to literally show up Himself and put those dirtbags in their proper place.

I dare you to give it a try if you feel like you can help get accross to nutcases like them, but chances are you will either come back either in a cardboard box or even worse as a newly converted atheist like them. The only people that are even the most likely to even give two cents for the gospel are older people from generations long ago, or tribal groups in non westernized non muslim countries. If furturism is the right way to go, then the antichrist is almost here, I can sense it and feel it in the air.

First of all. No one is saying you have to go cold witness to anyone.
Do you go to school at Western? Your bio says you are in Southeast Kentucky.

Derrick, one of my good friends is the Kentucky director for Campus Outreach. They have locations at EKU, UK, and Georgetown. I also am acquainted with the state director for FCA in Kentucky. Although Campus Outreach doesn't have a location at WKU, i know there are several campus minsitries at Western. Such as Christian Student Fellowship and Campus Crusade for Christ. And several others such as Baptist Campus ministries, Wesley, and pretty much any other major denomination. Have you made contact with any of these groups to speak to them about their fellowship or outreach? I've yet to hear of anyone in Bowling Green being shot for their faith.

FWIW, i don' t feel over confident in my abilities. I trust and am confident in our God and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

There is no way you can reach them or even take part in reaching them. The only way they can be reached is for God to literally show up Himself and put those dirtbags in their proper place.

Really? You have a lot of bitterness. And in a way I don't blame you. It is frustrating. I was just studying Habbakuk last night. He was very bitter towards Israel's condition. In that kind of state you are in, i wouldn't recommend speaking with anyone about the gospel. Imagine Christ looking down on wicked people who just scourged him and hung Him on a cross, and He says, Lord forgive them, for they know not what they do. I know some dear brothers and sisters in Christ who were just like those dirtbags. Maybe even worse. Derrick, they way I see it, you can continue to stew in this bitterness, or you can maybe find some counsel in the verses I provided and the rest of God's word. If you sincerely want to find a fellowship or ministry in your area, I'd be willing to help.

Again, I don't feel led to witness to people or to serve God in any SOCIAL setting or in any setting that involves literally being around and talking with other people. I only feel led to pray, study, donate money or serve in some behind the scenes way. And I've asked God specifically about this time and time again, and in no way do I end up feeling led to serve Him in any way that involves physically being around and talking with people. Because as I said, people can't get along with anyone here in America today. And as the economy gets worse and we run out of oil and food it's going to get beyond what anyone can handle. Anymore I can't have one on one conversations with people about anything. I can't do it with strangers, with "friends",I can't even do it with my own family. My friends despise each other, my own family despises each other, as well as groups of strangers despise each other as we can clearly see on the news and out in public. Last summer I had to restrain my own grandmother from attacking her next door neighbors over their leaves accidentally blowing over into her yard. People are flat losing it. It's probably been years since I've even physically met a certifiably sane person. That's why the only way I feel like I can serve God is behind the scenes away from others. In fact, since my photography business is on the decline I'm going to throw in a last ditch effort to find a job (hopefully that doesn't involve talking to people). I'm really going to have to find sometime to be alone and compose my thoughts since people and their insanity are really getting the best of me.

Derrick, sounds like there is more going on here than we can even begin to addresss. My immediate concern is not whether you witness to someone cold or otherwise. You need to find some fellowship and counsel to deal with these things in your life.

It sounds almost as if you are advocating some type of hermit or recluse lifestyle. And I don't see any scriptural support for such a life.

No you are wrong. Basically this is what I want to do and Bart was agreeing with me and I had it listed on my origional post. And that is I want to serve God and help the great commission, I just want to find my niche or the area that I feel comfortable and skilled in. And the areas that I feel comfortable and skilled in are areas such as prayer, Bible and apologetics study, monatary donation, and possible other behind the scenes areas other than things that invovle talking to people especially to angry, hateful, and hostile strangers who more than likely won't respond to the gospel in a positive manner to begin with. I feel like by doing those things over the course of a average life span, I would be able to help bring more people to Christ than if I were to do it by the methods that you and most evangelicals advocate, because if I do that, chances are I will be martyred for it. Now being martyred is not such a bad thing, the only problem is, the nonbelieving public would only see such a death as a tragedy and nothing more and thus they won't be able to hear the gospel because of it. It's not a hermit or recluse lifestyle, it's just a different and very possibly a more effective approach.

Derrick, I think I understand what you're saying and it's hard to pick up on all that's going on especially in writing like this because a lot can be lost and then read into written posts.

Confrontational evangelism (which is what I hear you saying you don't want to do) is tough and I agree with you that having a sense that everyone has to do this just because you're a Christian is way off the mark. It maybe that there are some who are gifted as an Evangelist and can do this and be effective. I don't know. I know that's not my gifting or my ability and I reject anyone telling me that I have to function in that way, when I don't see that message given to the church or to everyone.

I think what Jlay might be hearing in what you're saying and I think I might be picking up on it a little as well, is that your concern about interacting with difficult or agressively anti-christian people in terms of evangelism is one thing, but it seems like you're going beyond that and suggesting that you don't want any interaction with anyone in the context of where you are.

I understand a little bit about Southeastern Kentucky. I've spent some time in Kentucky and Appalachia and I know that it is in many ways a very different culture and world than most of the US.

While I have tried to give what I believe is a Biblical challenge to some of the typical assumptions that I think can be present in the evangelical community about what evangelism is and who is called to do it, I do believe that as Christians we're called to be salt and light in the world. I don't believe God wants us to cloister ourselves and avoid contact with people who make us uncomfortable or who are opposed to our walk with Christ. I think collectively we're called as local bodies to live out our faith in such a way that people can see how we relate, how we love one another and how we reach outside of ourselves. That's a lot broader scope than just speaking about a particular form of evangelism.

I think you know that. I hope that what sounds like a tough time coping with some tough relationships and a tough community which I understand (there are places where it's tougher than others) is something you can find some peace or else find another place where you can find that peace and be the salt and light that Christ calls us to be, which although it's often confused by some as being some form of overt, programmed evangelism, it's still nevertheless part of the way that Jesus shows Himself to others and draws them toward Himself.

Thank you again Bart, again I fully agree with everything you say. Also, I don't mind sharing the gospel and my Christian views publicly with someone who is reasonably kind and civil and who wants to engage in a civil and thoughtful conversation. The only problem is right now and for the past couple of years I've been seriously straining to find such a person. But if a kind, decent and non threatening, that's the key word non threatening person where to come up to me and start talking about God, religion or even meaning, purpose and the afterlife I would then be more than happy to share my views with them. The thing is, I'm not a fan of hateful debate. I'm not a fan of shouting matches. I physically can't stand to watch them nonetheless take part in them. If people want to act like uncivilized animals when it comes to discussing religion and God than I don't want any part of it. I really hope and pray that God helps change and clean up the social atmosphere so more people will be open to civil discussion and thus to the gospel of Christ. Thanks again Bart, God bless.

I have some friends who are incredible at what we have called 'street witnessing'. I've tried it and am just not cut out for it... I can't seem to start conversations about -anything- with strangers unless something demands it. I'd like to get better at it, but part of it I know is just my personality.

I can understand what you're saying when you talk about avoiding people who are hateful. The kind of discussions that result from people who receive a good chunk of their self worth from mocking Christians are never worthwhile. But don't give up looking for opportunities to share your faith. Based on what you've said, it sounds like you don't want to give up, but need some encouragement. Hopefully knowing that others struggle with it as well might help (and again, I'm talking about sharing one's faith in general, not going up to strangers specifically).

If it means anything to you, I've found the best possible times to share the Gospel and my faith in Christ are those where I've not made a commitment in advance to do so, but have instead made a commitment to act Christ-like. Things like Habitat for Humanity, or volunteering, or letting a total stranger borrow your cell phone. Things as small as that provide opportunities for someone to say "Hey, you're different". You can probably think of ways to respond once you have engaged them both heart and mind like this.

Good luck and God bless in your efforts with this! Hope you encounter some truly open-minded and open-hearted people in the near future.

Thank you greatly Marcus, that's great stuff. Thanks again and God bless.

And that is I want to serve God and help the great commission, I just want to find my niche or the area that I feel comfortable and skilled in.

Again, I do not want to reduce ministry down to the act of street witnessing. There is certainly a plethora of areas to serve in God's work.

I'm curious though. What if God calls you to serve in an area you aren't comfortable in. (and that doesn't have to be witnessing) Would you trust God to equip you for this service? This is a question I've asked myself, and it's not an easy one for me to answer. Personally, I've never been able to find a justification for comfort as a quality of ministry and service. I do think we can find comfort through seeing purpose in our areas of service, but this is different than whether it 'fits' our personal comfort level. One is a peace sought out of conforming ministry to our taste. The other is a peace only God can grant. This has come at different levels for me. I was very uncomfortable working with non-reading Kindergarten children. Guess what? I was very uncomfortable getting up in front of large groups and speaking, much less teaching God's word. Guess what? God has been faithful in everything He has called me to. And I would imagine looking back through my life, that there were several missed blessings, because I didn't trust God and instead trusted my skills, or even more so, trusted my limitations. I have to ask myself, if I am capable of doing this completely under my own skill and ability, then is God in it? I pray a similar prayer each time before I teach, because I realize just how unqualified I am for this work.

But if a kind, decent and non threatening, that's the key word non threatening person where to come up to me and start talking about God, religion or even meaning, purpose and the afterlife I would then be more than happy to share my views with them. The thing is, I'm not a fan of hateful debate. I'm not a fan of shouting matches. I physically can't stand to watch them nonetheless take part in them.

I don't know of any genuine proponets of personal witnessing, of any type, that advocate shouting matches.

If people want to act like uncivilized animals when it comes to discussing religion and God than I don't want any part of it.

Who would? We shouldn't throw pearls before swine anyway.

But also my concerns are deeper. You've expressed several areas of bitterness towards non-beleivers, and churched people as well. You also seem to genuienly think that somebody will shoot you dead, if you dared share your faith.
Now there are people being Martyred around the world. In fact I just had a missionary friend murdered by those heathen drug lords in Mexico this month.
Very few if any of those are killed for witnessing, but are killed for just assembling together to study the word, and the overall anti-Christian policies. This isn't the case in the US, and certainly isn't the case in the great Commonwealth of Kentucky. I haven't heard one episode of anyone being killed in the US for street witnessing, and I promise I am closely tied to people engaged in these types of minsistries, and have participated myself.

Well not only am I not comfortable doing street witnessing but I don't feel LED TO. I've even asked God about it and even then I still don't feel led to. So if I don't feel led, don't feel comfortable and don't have the talent to do it chances are I shouldn't do it, especially if I don't feel called to do it. By the way, what does "feeling called to do something" even feel like? Again, does God speak to you in a audible voice? Or in dynamic dreams and visions? He certainly doesn't do that to me or to anyone else who has their head screwed on correctly. If I was being called to to it chances are I would have a DESIRE to do it which I do not. Again I'm not a social person. Me being social with hostile strangers about witnessing is like a crippled person with no legs trying to get out of his wheelchair and participate in a marathon. It's crazy, it's pitiful, and most of all NOTHING IS ACCOMPLISHED. You mention casting pearls before swine,it has become that bad now, virtually all americans my age and younger are swine towards the pearls of the gospel. Again, in order for those types to even LISTEN not accept, just LISTEN to the gospel will take a massive supernatural miracle to take place before it would happen. You know, I'm just going to say, you are a DEVOUT LEGALIST. And you want everyone to think, act, talk, behave, look and agree with everything you say. You are so afraid of people who are different, even slightly different. And if they don't look, act, think, breathe, believe in every single detail on every single thing that you do and are then according to YOU not God YOU! they are not saved and they are a harlot of satan. I'm sick of being labeled as a harlot of satan by you and others in my area who are just like YOU. I assume if I held every single belief that you held but didn't believe that the earth and the universe are only 6,000 years old you would consider me non Christian and a harolt of satan. I'm really getting sick of it, the fact that most of the other reasonable and intelligent people here continue to tolerate your legalism and bigotry is beyond me.

Derrick,
I've said repeatedly now, this doesn't have to be about street witnessing? When I say this doesn't have to be about street witnessing to strangers, what I mean is this doesn't have to be about street witnessing to strangers.

By the way, what does "feeling called to do something" even feel like?

I didn't say feeling called. Although I can give some examples of when I was called, but I will not at this juncture due to the condescending tone of your last post.

If I was being called to to it chances are I would have a DESIRE to do it which I do not.

OK, but how do you defend that scripturally?

You mention casting pearls before swine,it has become that bad now, virtually all americans my age and younger are swine towards the pearls of the gospel. Again, in order for those types to even LISTEN not accept, just LISTEN to the gospel will take a massive supernatural miracle to take place before it would happen.

You simply don't have the authority to make these claims. As I mentioned, I am connected to several college campus ministries. People having a disposition against religion doesn't mean they are going to shoot you in the face, or that a supernatural miracle has to happen for them to listen. In fact it is happening every day.

You know, I'm just going to say, you are a DEVOUT LEGALIST. And you want everyone to think, act, talk, behave, look and agree with everything you say.

Derrick, for someone that says they hate shouting matches and the sort, your actions on a keyboard sure speak differently. I haven't said anything of any sort to deserve this ridiculous reaction from you, and I would hope the moderators would agree.

You are so afraid of people who are different, even slightly different. And if they don't look, act, think, breathe, believe in every single detail on every single thing that you do and are then according to YOU not God YOU!

Derrick, you have ridiculed and mocked Christians in your own area for not being like you, and you are essentially doing this to me here in this post. You have basically condemned an entire generation of people with broad sweeping allegations.

I'm sick of being labeled as a harlot of satan by you and others in my area who are just like YOU.

Derrick, I haven't labeled you as any such thing. I will say, that I think you are way out of line. If you think that is a label then so be it. For now, I'll just report this to the moderator and let them deal with it. Your reactions and behavior speak are interesting to say the least.

To be quite honest, you are the only bad thing about this place, but because of you I'm just about getting sick of being here. But I've found a much better place, it's CSLewislover's and Gabrielman's message board where they at least don't allow legalistic types like youself to troll, spam, and hijack theads. I greatly encourage Bart, Gman, and all of the other kinder reasonable folks to join me there sometime. But until then I guess I'll have to spend more time over there.