Evidence for God from Science

Making Chrsitianity static and the Holy Spirit more of an impersonal force rather than a full member of the trinity with personality, will and volition, makes Christianity more palatable and more cerebral.

I don't deny that this is a response. However, it isn't one I am part of. On the contrary, I don't think what I am saying makes the HS impersonal. Especially considering that I am one who had a very personal conversion experience. In fact, my own testimony might be viewed as some as a miracle, since I literally was touched and lifted by God.

I spent a good bit of time investigating, praying and pursuing the experiential things. A lot of it wondering if I was missing out on something God was doing. So, I investigated. Through this, I'm connected to quite a few who are connected to IHOP, and Morningstar. Also including a group that does some of the largest foreign crusades on the planet. I won't even deny that I didn't learn some things. There are some folks in the charasmatic movement who are rich in their knowledge of the Word. However, what became evident was what was not. I heard lots of speaking in gibberish, disorder, falling out. But never once had a confirming belief that any of this was genuine. I saw people who were high on religion. High on the sensations that the mind can generate. And these people will drive hundreds and thousands of miles to experience the next conference. That tells me it ain't real. Now, I know this isn't specifically what you are talking about. And Bart, if we sat down to discuss this over a cup of coffee, we'd probably agree on this issue more that it appears here. I wouldn't say miracles have totally dissapeared. I would say that we are not going to see them in the sense of Moses, Elijah, Jesus, and the disciples. There are reasons the occurance of miracles are concentrated and confined to certain people in certain times.

I think when that which is perfect is better understood as the return of Christ.

I do understand that position, as its the one I held most of my Christian life.

I don't doubt we're more in agreement here than not Jlay.

I agree about the excesses. I think you know, I went to Oral Roberts University and believe me, I can rattle off a list of observations and experiences where there were excesses. There's danger in many things. I don't know whether there should be more or less of them today than in the past. I think our western culture is skeptical and if unbelief impacted even Jesus' ability in the context of His humanity to perform miracles in certain settings, I have no doubt that's true today in our culture. Other areas of the world seem more open and more accepting and more seems to be happening there. That doesn't mean I don't carry some skepticism. I do. I don't believe we're living in static times however. Aslan as it were, is still on the move.

I appreciate the positions of both jlay and Canuckster. I have seen and admit I've even found it tempting, to use "no more miracles" as an excuse to make the Gospel more palatable for unbelievers and to satisfy skeptics. Right now I think I'd settle more on miracles as a "rare occurrence" and providence often being seen side. When you read through the Bible, you'll see several times when you see God's hand without hearing his voice directly. One example I recently read was Hannah's prayers being answered in I Samuel.

narnia4 wrote:I appreciate the positions of both jlay and Canuckster. I have seen and admit I've even found it tempting, to use "no more miracles" as an excuse to make the Gospel more palatable for unbelievers and to satisfy skeptics. Right now I think I'd settle more on miracles as a "rare occurrence" and providence often being seen side. When you read through the Bible, you'll see several times when you see God's hand without hearing his voice directly. One example I recently read was Hannah's prayers being answered in I Samuel.

Remember that Jesus sometimes only healed one person in a crowd, or a few thru a process, or everyone. For Hebrews 13:8 to be true would also mean the same pattern is used today. I have seen a few verified by Doctors healings, for example, a paralyzed from the waist down man, now walks. He had an accident, went to Craig rehab in Denver Colorado, told by Doctors and test that he would never walk again. He prayed, got worse but kept on praying like the people did for Jesus. He now walks. I minister with him today.

I know of six month old baby with clasping lungs, mom was distraught, three people prayed for the baby. Mom had an appointment at the Doctors for admittance to hospital next morning. After test and x-rays – baby’s lungs were clear and normal. These were medical test performed verifying this. Mother came back to meeting – excited and the baby cried and made normal noise during the service.

I know of a woman, another verified medically, no longer has MS. She was proceeding into a chronic phase of this disease. Another man, deaf, now hears, again all Doctor and medically verified. Then there are others, including myself, not healed. So, as I see it, the Lord is sovereign and the same yesterday, today and forever. Sometimes he heals one out of a crowd, another one thru a process (mud in the eye moment), other times he may do a whole crowd (haven’t seen this yet).

The problem is that we are skeptical and natural doubters of such claims. Even If I got permission to post the medical reports on the people I mentioned for you all to see. Someone would claim – they’re fake, or whatever… For that, it is not miracles of healings that will lead people to believe in Christ. They are out there and do happen.

In my opinion, it is the use of the ‘I must see a real miracle to believe’ argument many people use is one reason the Lord seems to heal individuals here and there as before. Such people who use this argument expect God to privately tap dance for them as if their belief is superior to all others and deserves an else answer or not. Really? So he moves around them, so they might never see...

One other thing, Jesus did his seen miracles recorded in the bible, and was crucified despite all the good he had done and all those healed. The apostles had the same experience in varied degrees with the exception of John who wasn’t killed but passed on due to old age.

Heb 13:8, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."

If there are no more miracles - then what of the New Birth? Does that happen today? The transforming work of Christ upon our souls? What more proof that miracles still do happen and all has not ceased away during some bygone day.
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For Hebrews 13:8 to be true would also mean the same pattern is used today.

BW, I strongly disagree. First, there is simply no basis in the context of Hebrews 13 to equate this to the role of miracles today, or even then for that matter. In fact this verse actually deals with the fact that soemthing is being CHANGED, and being done away with for Hebrews, in how God was dealing with them. Sacrifices. Jesus was same when the law was given on Sinai. Yet the sacrifices were put in place. The writer is communicating that through all these different dispensations, Christ is the same.
Secondly, it doesn't jive with what the bible reveals about miracles. When one examines miracles in the bible, we see that they do not happen randomly or evenly dispersed. There are approx 330 miracles recorded in the bible. Of these nearly all of them are concentrated around a few specific people and a few specific times. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, and the early disciples. The bible was written over a period of 1,500 years. Even if we divided all the recorded miracle over that time, you would come up with one miracle every 4.5 years. But that is not how they happened. Instead, tens of years, even hundreds would go by without such miracles.

Jesus being the same, that He is the savior crucified before the foundations of the earth, isn't disputed. I see it as a far reach, when trying to apply this verse to things such as miracles, or covenants, or whatever. And in doing so, it does insinuate that myself and others are impuning the character of God.

We know that God is the same, yet how He has dealt with man on this earth has changed. That is indisputable. Has God's pattern changed in this regard? Yes. Does that mean the nature of Christ or God has changed? No.

If there are no more miracles - then what of the New Birth? Does that happen today?

That is simply equivocating the word 'miracle' to suit the purposes of what you are trying to prove. If you want to say that the new birth is a miracle, I'm not going to argue. But it is not the same as what we are talking about when we use the word, "miracle," in the context of the OP.

Again, I beleive in the prayer of faith. God can heal, and I too have testimonies like the one's you have mentioned.

jlay wrote:

For Hebrews 13:8 to be true would also mean the same pattern is used today.

BW, I strongly disagree. First, there is simply no basis in the context of Hebrews 13 to equate this to the role of miracles today, or even then for that matter. In fact this verse actually deals with the fact that soemthing is being CHANGED, and being done away with for Hebrews, in how God was dealing with them. Sacrifices. Jesus was same when the law was given on Sinai. Yet the sacrifices were put in place. The writer is communicating that through all these different dispensations, Christ is the same.
Secondly, it doesn't jive with what the bible reveals about miracles. When one examines miracles in the bible, we see that they do not happen randomly or evenly dispersed. There are approx 330 miracles recorded in the bible. Of these nearly all of them are concentrated around a few specific people and a few specific times. Moses, Elijah, Elisha, Jesus, and the early disciples. The bible was written over a period of 1,500 years. Even if we divided all the recorded miracle over that time, you would come up with one miracle every 4.5 years. But that is not how they happened. Instead, tens of years, even hundreds would go by without such miracles.

Jesus being the same, that He is the savior crucified before the foundations of the earth, isn't disputed. I see it as a far reach, when trying to apply this verse to things such as miracles, or covenants, or whatever. And in doing so, it does insinuate that myself and others are impuning the character of God.

We know that God is the same, yet how He has dealt with man on this earth has changed. That is indisputable. Has God's pattern changed in this regard? Yes. Does that mean the nature of Christ or God has changed? No.

If there are no more miracles - then what of the New Birth? Does that happen today?

That is simply equivocating the word 'miracle' to suit the purposes of what you are trying to prove. If you want to say that the new birth is a miracle, I'm not going to argue. But it is not the same as what we are talking about when we use the word, "miracle," in the context of the OP.

Again, I beleive in the prayer of faith. God can heal, and I too have testimonies like the one's you have mentioned.

So we need to define the term miracles. As for myself, I include healings with miracles as there is no other way to explain how the Lord heals when all hope is lost. I define miracles as astonishing phenomenon that defy the laws of nature, sin, death, and even physics!

So, if we say miracles do you define these as - the Earth stop rotating so the sun standstill – Feeding thousands with only peanut and butter jelly sandwich and a piece of toast with Vegimite? Walking on unfrozen Water barefoot?

Yes then these would be miracles and even if such are seen, I still doubt that these would cause everyone to run to Christ and shout Glory to God in the highest!

I still think the miracle of the new Birth and a Transformed life by the Holy Spirit is the most abundant miracle seen today.

Let me leave with this hypotheses:

If all miracles have ceased; then, how could the resurrection of the Dead happen, or even the New Birth in Christ for that matter?

As a matter of fact, the way I see it, God’s cure for old age is eternal life with Himself! Now that’s a miracle!
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If all miracles have ceased; then, how could the resurrection of the Dead happen, or even the New Birth in Christ for that matter?

BW, first I'm not going to defend a position I don't hold. I've said that miracles can happen. I most definately believe every miracle in the Bible. I've also clearly said that God and Christ are the same. I've also pointed out a biblical fact about miracles in that they happen in bunches and always serve a purpose regarding God revealing new programs to man. They (the grand ones) are not arbitrary or random.

My position is that miracles, the grand one's we have in the scriptures, have ceased. I do believe in the prayer of faith, as taught in James 5, and that God may intervene with healing according to His perfect will.

Like I said, if you are defining the new birth as a miracle, then you are just equivovcating the word to suit your position regarding miracles. In fact i wouldn't even argue that it is a miracle in one sense. But not in the sense that is addressed in the OP. As if there is no difference between a person being saved ( A heavenly position Eph. 2:6) versus someone being physically dead and raised back to life. Well, there is a difference. They may both be divine acts, but one is clearly an interruption of natural laws in which a supernatural act occurs.

The problem BW is that people today are attempting to operate in a spiritual capacity they are not called to. It is very common to hear charasmatic preachers telling people that will be healed, because God has told them that believers aren't to be sick, and that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. I'm sorry but that is not scripturally sound. And some of these abuses get way out there. I just see a danger in using the word so liberally. "Oh there are miracles all around, why shouldn't you be healed." I think it really detracts from the Soveriegn will of God.

Jlay, I would agree with you to a point and that is why there needs to be a defining of what makes a miracle a miracle. So we need to limit the term to miracles that illustrate the following:

For the Earth stop rotating so the sun standstill would indeed be a miracle – Feeding thousands of people with a single peanut and butter jelly sandwich and a piece of toast with Vegemite would be a miracle too. Walking on unfrozen 100 meter deep water barefoot would be a miracle too. Calling fire down from heaven would be a miracle as well. There is good reason we do not see these today and that is the propensity for abuse.

There is one reason why I say that miracles have not ceased is that Revelation 11:2, 3, 4, 5, 6c has not happened yet. If the logic which states that miracles have already ceased to be true then these verses are in error.

Matthew 7:21, 22, 23c is true as well. Yes there is a abuse of a healing styled miracles, etc, and the Lord can take care of them that do so on his terms, not mine. I am cool with that. Since there are characters like that – they will have to face a harsh judgment form the Lord.

As for ourselves who are not like these, it is time to be about the Lord’s work as I know that you are so doing. For a few clowns out there should not stop us from doing what James 5:13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20c tells us as believers to do. We leave the healing to Jesus to do or not to do. His ways are best, even when we do not understand them. I am sure at some future point he will let us in on why for some his answer was yes and others no. I will sound old fashioned but as Stonewall Jackson always said, “best to trust the hands of an ever kind providence,” is a wise statement indeed.

So far, I have not seen people walk on water or the earth stand still so the sun does not move. I have not seen thousands feed by a single slice of toast with Vegimite on it. I have not seen fire called down from heaven either on anyone. Yet, the book of Revelation chapter 11 tells us there are miracles to yet come from his two chosen messengers. For this reason, is why I say such miracles have not ceased. So let us refrain from classing healings as miracles.
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Those miracles are yet to come. Now we are getting into the semantics of ceased.

So let me amend. My position is that miracles, the grand one's we have in the scriptures, have ceased, for the time being.

What is your scriptural basis for delineating between grand miracles of the past and the one's we have today then?

Something else I was curious about does anyone know about early church history like how it was after all the disciples died? Were there any major supernatural miracles going on within the early church after the disciples were martyred? Did miracles immediately drop off the radar to about what they are today or did they keep happening quite frequently until about a couple hundred years ago due to the advances of modern science?

There are accounts of miracles and healings after the Apostolic age in some of the Patristic writings and then there are some as well claimed in pseudopigraphal writings (books with false authors). There are all kinds of claims throughout church history in the catholic church of healings and miracles. Many of them became associated with church relics and special locations. That continues to varying measures today. Lourdes is still a popular location to pray for healings and I believe there's a pretty strong effort to record and document reported healings associated with claims reported from there. How authentic any of them may be, is a matter for debate of course. I don't dount however, that there are legitimate instances in the midst of all the reports.

What is your scriptural basis for delineating between grand miracles of the past and the one's we have today then?

Bart, I've already shown that. The bible itself makes the distinction. The bible is the litmus test for miracles. I know you don't agree with my interpretation of 1 Cor 13, but even if we set that aside we have enough to go on. I gave evidence how the scriptures demonstrate miracles being tied to individuals and times. And that these serve a distinct purpose regarding God's plans on the earth. And then in James 5 we have a very specific instruction regarding a very specific miracle. That of Physical healing. Not parting of seas, raising of dead, water to wine etc. Healing ONLY. This verse makes the distinction of miracles, setting healing apart as a very unique miracle which can be obtained through a very specific God given method.

There are all kinds of claims throughout church history in the catholic church of healings and miracles.

And the Bible also says that we will see false signs and wonders. And the intent is to deceive even the elect. (Matt 24:24)(2 Thess. 2:9) I think the first question in any of these miracles is how do they line up with scripture. Particularly James 5. That addresses healings. So, that provides a very specific framework to go by.
Otherwise, what is the purpose of said miracle? As I mentioned, the grand miracles all served a very distinct purpose. Either to show that God had given authority to a person, to show that He had new revelation for mankind, or to confirm His plans in the Earth.

In fact the book of Matthew, is divinely laid out to show the Jew the authority of God given to Jesus by the miracles He performed. This starts in chapter 8 through 10. Note Matt. 8:17(Purpose!)
Authority over physical sickness, to fulfill prophecy, the spiritual realm, nature, sin, death, blindness. And finally authority to administer that authority to others on the Earth and thus establishing the Kingdom.

The existence of false miracles doesn't invalidate the true and allow me to remind you that the Protestant traditions and teachings of today wouldn't exist apart from the preservation of the faith within the Catholic Church prior for almost 1500 years.

I don't find the arguments presented convincing. Further I find scripture gives no indication of the ending of God's supernatural work on earth at any point.

Assuming that Christ's establishment of the kingdom negates further need of the miraculous in this present age begs the question as to why then Christ told his disciples that they would continue with miraculous signs after His resurection. I understand that we disagree as to the inference some take of the New Testament cannon being the catalyst that changed God's work amongst His people. Absent of that, I don't find the issue to be "authority". I find the issue to be the love of God for His children and to infer from the passage from James that because healing is addressed without other elements of the miraculous is an argument from absence and not uniformly applied by those who invoke it in other areas of Scripture and I find that suspect.

I Cor 12:27-31 - 27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

I see these as functions within the church still at work today. All are subject to abuse and falsification. The same can be said of teaching, which is included in this list and yet there's no assertion or inference that teaching has ceased in this age.

Gal 3:1-6 - 1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?[a] 4 Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6 So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The working of miracles was assumed here and referred to almost casually and tied to grace and belief, not "authority" or "works".

Heb 2:1-4 - 1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Signs, wonder, various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed according to God's will.

It's one thing to advise caution and note that there are deceivers and deceptions. It's quite another to suspend belief and in effect to place the Spirit of Christ into a straight-jacket stating what God will or will not do in the midst of His people or as a sign to unbelievers in any context. I'm not prepared to do that and I find no scriptural basis or basis in my understanding of the nature and character of God as displayed in Jesus Christ to lead me to believe that God has chosen to limit Himselves to our understanding or comfort level in this and so I respectfully disagree with the inferences of the argument presented above.

Rare, I have no problem with conceding. We should be cautious and wary to avoid being taken in by deceivers. That doesn't change the nature or operations of God and especially when the best support that can be offered from Scripture is by indirect inference rather than clear and direct teaching, I think skepticism is best directed at the suspect interpretation than toward the nature, plans and workings of God to presume to limit Him in any manner.

The working of miracles was assumed here and referred to almost casually and tied to grace and belief, not "authority" or "works".

Well, we simply need look at the context of this being addressed specifically to THE GALATIANS" who were a church of the apostolic age. The canon had not been closed. Obviously, because it is being written to them here. Of course there were miracles. And of course they were done by the power of God. Considering the context of what Paul is teaching in Galatians 3, this seems a bit of a proof text to try to say that we should be seeing the same things today, thatthe 1st century church witnessed.

Are Paul's writings God breathed or not? Miracles confirm the authority, just as I have said from the beginning. Paul's writings are authoritative. Paul performed and lived in the apostolic era of miracles. (Acts 19:11)

Heb 2:1-4 - 1 We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

Signs, wonder, various miracles and gifts of the Holy Spirit are distributed according to God's will.

Distributed for what purpose. Confirmed by who? Those who heard Him. And God testified to it (further confirmed) by signs and wonders. Confirmed what? What is the it?The message of Salvation. Miracles confirm the message and the messenger, just as I've said all along.

It's quite another to suspend belief and in effect to place the Spirit of Christ into a straight-jacket stating what God will or will not do in the midst of His people or as a sign to unbelievers in any context. I'm not prepared to do that and I find no scriptural basis or basis in my understanding of the nature and character of God as displayed in Jesus Christ to lead me to believe that God has chosen to limit Himselves to our understanding or comfort level in this and so I respectfully disagree with the inferences of the argument presented above.

Bart, sorry to disagree, but it seems the scripture you quote only further validates what I am speaking to. Apart from healings according to James 5, what kind of miracles are you talking about? Let's be specific.

Absent of that, I don't find the issue to be "authority". I find the issue to be the love of God for His children and to infer from the passage from James that because healing is addressed without other elements of the miraculous is an argument from absence and not uniformly applied by those who invoke it in other areas of Scripture and I find that suspect.

I beg to disagree. You asked me a question about how I separate miracles. I don't think it is an accident that the scripture in James focuses specifically on miraculous healing and provides a framework to access and request such healing. You wanted to know why I can accept healing and also believe that the grand miracles have ceased.

The existence of false miracles doesn't invalidate the true and allow me to remind you that the Protestant traditions and teachings of today wouldn't exist apart from the preservation of the faith within the Catholic Church prior for almost 1500 years.

True, but unlike the miracles you refer to above, they were written as speaking to contemporaries. False miracles were warned of as a future event. What does the RCC have to do specifically with anything here?