Evidence for God from Science

And also - as CS Lewis said if a universe is to have perfect freewill beings you need to have physical laws that create the universe that God pretty much leaves alone unless direct intervention is required - such as miracles. Remembering of course that the whole matter of creation in the first place is one big miracle.

Silvertusk wrote:And also - as CS Lewis said if a universe is to have perfect freewill beings you need to have physical laws that create the universe that God pretty much leaves alone unless direct intervention is required - such as miracles. Remembering of course that the whole matter of creation in the first place is one big miracle.

That makes no sense. How, exactly, would intervening with miracles violate free will?

noah1201 that is why if Jesus appeared before me right now i would still think twice before agreeing to anything. Just because it might allegedly happen doesn't mean it would force anyone to change their mind. The pharaoh in exodus was subjected to loads of miracles and he didn't change his mind did he?

Although If Jesus DID appear for me, it be a great way to help convince me maybe you could pray to make it happen?

I've always thought the Universe was as big as it is because it was a display of God's power.

Noah1201 wrote:

Silvertusk wrote:And also - as CS Lewis said if a universe is to have perfect freewill beings you need to have physical laws that create the universe that God pretty much leaves alone unless direct intervention is required - such as miracles. Remembering of course that the whole matter of creation in the first place is one big miracle.

That makes no sense. How, exactly, would intervening with miracles violate free will?

I never said it did. I am just saying that physical laws need to be in place for perfect freewill to exist. This quote from "Problem of Pain" by C.S. Lewis is what I am on about.

“Again, the freedom of a creature must mean freedom to choose: and choice implies the existence of things to choose between. A creature with no environment would have no choices to make: so that freedom, like self consciousness…..again demands the presence of the self of something other than the self.”

He then goes on to say:

“We can, perhaps, conceive of a world in which God corrected the results of this abuse of free will by his creatures at every moment: so that a wooden beam became soft as grass when it was used as a weapon, and the air refused to obey me if I attempted to set up in it the sound waves that carry lies or insults. But such a world would be one in which wrong actions were impossible, and in which therefore, freedom of the will would be void; nay if the principal were carried out to its logical conclusion , evil thoughts would be impossible, for the cerebral matter which we use would refuse its task when we attempted to frame them. All matter in the neighbourhood of a wicked man would be liable to undergo unpredictable alterations. That God can and does, on occasions, modify the behaviour of matter and produce what we call miracles, is part of the Christian faith; but the very concept of a common and therefore stable world demands that these occasions should be extremely rare.”


Therefore physical and natural laws need to be in place and because of that the universe ends up being as large as it does as it takes billions of stars to generate the material necessary for heavier elements that is essential for intelligent life. If really did take an entire universe to create us.

Maybe you should discriminate between freedom of will and freedom to act, I want to be able to lift up a house...I have the will to do it, but No freedom to act on it. God could prevent evil from happening and it would have no effect on freedom of will it would be freedom to act that would be effected.(or is it affected?)

Jesus constantly made himself apparent in the new testament, I do not think it would have any massive effect if he would just have decided that 2000 years on, NOW would of been a better time to be around? Why not, if the bible is a true story then why would the Savior come in a time where nations are isolated and technology to record everything is primitive? Why not move a few mountains around? Calculate π(tasty) at the trillionth digit? How about restoring amputated limbs? God cures cancer all the time apparently but does nothing for amputees. Anyway enough of this, just sayng when things are too good to be true they are usually not at it.