Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:Danny, believe it or not, my Mom died on the operating table. She claims to have seen something as well. If you wish to know more, I can certainly get her story for you. I wasn't really so interested in her experience at the time, because I was more interested in making sure she was ok. But if you're really interested, I can find out. Just let me know.

Rick, your Mom had a NDE? Is she okay now?

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Danny, believe it or not, my Mom died on the operating table. She claims to have seen something as well. If you wish to know more, I can certainly get her story for you. I wasn't really so interested in her experience at the time, because I was more interested in making sure she was ok. But if you're really interested, I can find out. Just let me know.

Rick, your Mom had a NDE? Is she okay now?

Yes, she's ok now. This happened about 7 years ago. I don't know if I'd call it an NDE though. She had a heart attack, and was getting a stent put in through her leg to clear a blockage in her heart. When the stent hit the blockage, she died. She said then she actually came out of her body for a brief moment, but then the doctor told her to cough. She said she watched her body cough, and then she was back in her body. She had no pulse at the time, so for a brief moment , she was physically dead. When she was out of her body, she said she felt her wrists, and they were there, but they were not there. If you can understand that. She said for the moment she was dead, she was surrounded by light, and felt no pain nor sadness. But, she said it was a brief moment.

RickD wrote:Yes, she's ok now. This happened about 7 years ago. I don't know if I'd call it an NDE though. She had a heart attack, and was getting a stent put in through her leg to clear a blockage in her heart. When the stent hit the blockage, she died. She said then she actually came out of her body for a brief moment, but then the doctor told her to cough. She said she watched her body cough, and then she was back in her body. She had no pulse at the time, so for a brief moment , she was physically dead. When she was out of her body, she said she felt her wrists, and they were there, but they were not there. If you can understand that. She said for the moment she was dead, she was surrounded by light, and felt no pain nor sadness. But, she said it was a brief moment.

Wow.

Rick, I'd like to swap emails with you if you would too, because there are elements here that I'd love to ask you about but feel it might be inappropriate to do so here since it is so close to home for you. I would say the 'pm' facility is a bit too impersonal for this. Up to you though, of course.

DannyM wrote:

RickD wrote:Yes, she's ok now. This happened about 7 years ago. I don't know if I'd call it an NDE though. She had a heart attack, and was getting a stent put in through her leg to clear a blockage in her heart. When the stent hit the blockage, she died. She said then she actually came out of her body for a brief moment, but then the doctor told her to cough. She said she watched her body cough, and then she was back in her body. She had no pulse at the time, so for a brief moment , she was physically dead. When she was out of her body, she said she felt her wrists, and they were there, but they were not there. If you can understand that. She said for the moment she was dead, she was surrounded by light, and felt no pain nor sadness. But, she said it was a brief moment.

Wow.

Rick, I'd like to swap emails with you if you would too, because there are elements here that I'd love to ask you about but feel it might be inappropriate to do so here since it is so close to home for you. I would say the 'pm' facility is a bit too impersonal for this. Up to you though, of course.

I'll pm you my email, Danny.

neo-x wrote:IMO even when the brain is flat-lined....there is some activity deep with in the subconscious. i have also read somewhere that when a person is about to die and loses consciousness the brain keeps working little by little to make sure that all of the bodily systems shutdown, blood pressure drops, the sensory motors are shutoff, vision, smell, other senses go off, just like a coma. i think NDE is like a comma, but unlike a comma and only for a short period time he can see past his conscious into the subconscious a place where science says we can only go when we are dreaming, thus implying an alternate reality. In that a person may experience an illusion whether that be from God or the devil or the mind itself.

I personally think that a few may be able to see God, like Stephen did in the Book of Acts when they were stoning him. But then I would say it would have nothing to do with his brain, but with his eyes of faith. Im not implying that what he saw was his own mind's projection but rather through faith he could see past the bodily vision.

A lot of people see evil spirits too. I have seen possessed people, most of the times in an exorcism, the evil spirit claims to be Kali, Krishna, Hanumaan or other religious figures from islam and hinduism. it would be no wonder then if these entities can come to people at their NDE, this in-turn would either mock their belief or strengthen it.

I think the devil has the power to even perform feats that otherwise would look like only God can do. I have often struggled with the question of Moses' rod turning to snake. now i know that Moses' rod transformed into a snake because God can do it. but it made me wonder how the magicians of pharaoh transformed their rods as well into snakes. It implies that the devil has some sort of power, if not to breathe life into a body but at least to partially simulate one.

Okay. But why would the brain make sure all the bodily systems shutdown..That's self defeating.

Going off on a slight tangent, what do you guys think happens AS we die? Like, will we feel pain? Will we instantly float up to heaven? And what does the Bible say?I was going to make this a new thread, but decided this might be better.

neo-x wrote:
IMO even when the brain is flat-lined....there is some activity deep with in the subconscious. i have also read somewhere that when a person is about to die and loses consciousness the brain keeps working little by little to make sure that all of the bodily systems shutdown, blood pressure drops, the sensory motors are shutoff, vision, smell, other senses go off, just like a coma. i think NDE is like a comma, but unlike a comma and only for a short period time he can see past his conscious into the subconscious a place where science says we can only go when we are dreaming, thus implying an alternate reality. In that a person may experience an illusion whether that be from God or the devil or the mind itself.

I personally think that a few may be able to see God, like Stephen did in the Book of Acts when they were stoning him. But then I would say it would have nothing to do with his brain, but with his eyes of faith. Im not implying that what he saw was his own mind's projection but rather through faith he could see past the bodily vision.

A lot of people see evil spirits too. I have seen possessed people, most of the times in an exorcism, the evil spirit claims to be Kali, Krishna, Hanumaan or other religious figures from islam and hinduism. it would be no wonder then if these entities can come to people at their NDE, this in-turn would either mock their belief or strengthen it.

I think the devil has the power to even perform feats that otherwise would look like only God can do. I have often struggled with the question of Moses' rod turning to snake. now i know that Moses' rod transformed into a snake because God can do it. but it made me wonder how the magicians of pharaoh transformed their rods as well into snakes. It implies that the devil has some sort of power, if not to breathe life into a body but at least to partially simulate one.


Okay. But why would the brain make sure all the bodily systems shutdown..That's self defeating.

On the contrary, it is the best solution, The brain works on a priority basis, for example, when people go unconscious or faint, that is simply because the threshold of pain or shock is so strong that it might cause some damage. Blood pressure for example, if shoots too high the person would faint and thats why the mind will shutdown body functions, in order to stabilize the blood pressure. We know that in a sleepy or comma state, the rate of breathing slows, the over all metabolism and body temperature slows, so when some one faints because of severe high blood pressure - that is the brains effort to avert a hemorrhage.

Also if someone is say, starving, he will experience dizziness and then slowly he will faint, why? most people see it as a lack of energy to go on, yes partially true but the other half is equally important, when the threshold of energy is too low and the brain realizes that - it will shutdown body function, the priorty would be to save as much energy as possible for the heart to keep on going, even if that means that the brain itself shuts down (not complete since the sub-conscience never shuts down until one dies). Which is when we lose the experience of our 5 senses and go unconscious. This is why the blood circulation slows and you have to massage the feet of or hands or legs in order for the blood to pick up some pressure, because the brain stops or slows a lot of body function in order to keep the heart going. The kidneys, the liver all go off one by one. This is the basic backup plan, so to say of the human body. A last preservation system that tries to hold on to life as long as it is viable.

Mariolee wrote:Going off on a slight tangent, what do you guys think happens AS we die? Like, will we feel pain? Will we instantly float up to heaven? And what does the Bible say?I was going to make this a new thread, but decided this might be better.

1 Corinthians 15:54-57
Then, when our dying bodies have been transformed into bodies that will never die, this Scripture will be fulfilled:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.
O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ. (NLT)
Also:
Romans 8:38-39
Revelation 2:11
Believers enter the Lord's presence at death.
In essence, the moment we die, our spirit and soul go to be with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are fully confident, and we would rather be away from these earthly bodies, for then we will be at home with the Lord.
Philippians 1:22-23
But if I live, I can do more fruitful work for Christ. So I really don’t know which is better. I’m torn between two desires: I long to go and be with Christ, which would be far better for me.
Believers will dwell with God forever.
Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and love will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the LORD forever.
Also:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Jesus prepares a special place for believers in heaven.
John 14:1-3
"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

This topic has been hugely interesting to me over the last couple years due to a co-worker who roped me into discussing NDE’s and forced me to examine the evidence. My personal conclusion is that few if any of the NDE’s are actual and true encounters with Jesus or heaven. I am forced to conclude that primarily NDE’s fall into these different categories: (1) made up stories by people, (2) encounters with deceiving demons, and (3) dreams/hallucinations. I believe that each NDE needs to be assessed individually. There are some genuine stories and there are some tall tales out there. And, I don’t think we should entirely exclude the possibility that some cases may well be encounters with Jesus and heaven, but those appear to be rare events at best.

First, you are correct in objecting to atheistic answers to NDE’s, for there are well-documented cases where people have seen things while being clinically brain dead that cannot possibly be accounted for by the natural five sense. People with their eyes covered who’ve seen details about the operation. People who’ve heard people talking while being clinically brain dead. These cases cannot be accounted for with just the known laws of physics. It’s out of the question. No atheist has adequately answered these cases, IMHO. The best they can do is say that it’s just coincidental or good guesses.

The whole “God helmet” stuff has been interesting, but it still answers nothing in regard to the above NDE’s. It is well-known that belief in God isn’t based in one part of the brain. Also, it makes sense that God would build a part of the physical brain to interpret/experience spiritual phenomenon. It shouldn’t bother us that there is a part of the brain that allows for “spiritual experiences,” since the brain acts—in part—as a gateway between the physical body and the spiritual body and must accommodate spiritual things. But, on the flip side, what are interpreted to be “spiritual experiences” are subjective and shouldn’t ever be assumed to be of God or genuine spiritual reality. The fact that these experiences can be induced seems to reinforce that truth.

I too was interested in the New Age-ic message that was coming from the majority of NDE’s. All religions lead to God? Not quite a biblical message. In fact, it’s downright satanic. And I know for sure that some people are being deceived by these NDE’s. This should immediately lead us to the conclusion that they are demonic. But, can the Bible support that answer? I have found that it does clearly support it! The NDE’s almost all teach some heresy: (1) your religion is irrelevant to God, (2) hell is temporary, (3) all people get to heaven eventually, (4) God has no anger and is without any interest in judging people, or (5) we will all become like God in the afterlife. The last point is clearly an old satanic lie (cf. Gen. 3:5). Heresy (2) and (3) are also in line with the ancient lie that “you will not surely die” (v.4).

What is the power of Satan or the demons or angels like? Here is a list with biblical references:

* Manipulation of thoughts (Gen. 3:4; 1 Chr. 21:1; Job 1:12-17; numerous instances of demon possession)
* Manipulation of feelings/moods (1 Sam. 18:10; 19:9)
* Giving of visions (Matt. 4:8; Luke 4:5; Rev. 1:1; 22:8-9)
* Time manipulation (Luke 4:5)
* Ability to appear in different forms (2 Cor. 11:14)
* Ability to create storms and cause sickness (Job 1:18-19; 2:7)

What we learn from these verses is that Satan has the ability to give visions to people and to give them euphoric feelings of love and to appear as a being of light. This is well in line with the kind of things that happen during many NDE’s. In fact, according to 2 Cor. 11:14, we should expect Satan/demons to deceive people by pretending to be good entities of light. The Bible predicted deception by demons in the latter days: “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons...” (1 Tim. 4:1). Demons are prophesied to be agents somehow communicating heresies to people. NDE’s fit the bill.

So, all in all, NDE’s and OBE’s do show that life after death is real, but they also validate the Bible in another way. Satan is going around as a roaring lion seeking to deceive people. We should not be ignorant of Satan’s devices (2 Cor. 2:11). We know he is powerful and able to do “signs and lying wonders” (2 Thess. 2:9). But, thankfully, God is infinitely above him, and “the Lord is faithful, who will establish you and guard you from the evil one” (2 Thess. 3:3).

I think Paul’s NDE is instructive here, also. He said that it was “not lawful for a man to utter” the things he saw in heaven (cf. 2 Cor. 12:3-5). We should be highly sceptical of anyone claiming to have seen heaven—especially if they’re making lots of money from writing about it. Anyone who has seen heaven should follow Paul’s example and refrain from writing details about it.

God’s Blessings