Evidence for God from Science

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RickD wrote:Without correct doctrine, how do we rightly divide the Bible? Are you saying that now the way to determine if a church is biblical is just if "the spirit" is present? Correct or incorrect doctrine has no bearing?

I'm saying that I've satopped being so strict with churches who err from all things biblical. If a church was teaching a works-oriented salvation, I would speak. If a church taught that Christ was not God incarnate, I would speak. But my church, and many churches I have attended, do not feel a need to translate tongues. I wholeheatedly disagree. 1 Corinthians 14 gives me very good reason to disagree. But, while I'm uneasy about it, it seems that I've been banging my head against a brick wall in trying to approach the subject with pastors/leaders. So, yes, while they go against Paul's very teaching, I've decided that I will stop speaking out and leave it with God. I'm tired, Rick, of seemingly being the only one who cares about total biblical adherence. And besides, can anyone honestly say they never err from the Word? So while I'm certainly uneasy with it, I've accepted it. I'm happy for you to challenge my acceptance of this, and it would make for good debate.

RickD wrote:I've seen enough Toronto blessings, and holy laughter as well as live attendances in churches where people were "slain in the spirit", to have a very healthy skepticism of anything called "drunk on the Spirit".

These people were "slain in the spirit":http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn6FF5nhTSs
Is it really the Holy Spirit?

When I have heard people say they are drunk on the spirit, they have been happy, sometimes filled with laughter, perhaps have their hands raised in the air, and more often that not have their eyes closed. I used to think all of this was a bit weird. But now I see it as a genuine, affectionate relationship with God. I've moved on from my stiff upper lip approach. And here's the thing. Weeks before I went to any revival meeting I was at home, praying a heartfelt prayer to God. Instead of praying quickly before the football came on, I prayed an enjoyable, heartfelt prayer. I felt the Presence hovering above me. I knew the Spirit of God was with me. It felt joyful and pwerful. That's my experience. It's not about experience, but that was mine. And, incidentally, how can one describe an experience without emphasising the experience? Because I descibe an experience does not automatically mean I am placing experience above worship.

With regards to your video, Rick: you tell me! I don't know. I've seen a lot of charlatans in my time. But what about the flock in the presence of the charlatan? You tell me if they are experiencing the Holy Spirit or not. I wouldn't presume to know. I'll stand and identify the charlatan with you if I can. But I won't tell somebody they have not felt the Presence if they say they have. I'm done with that kind of presumptuous naysaying.

RickD wrote:Danny, there have been enough topics here on tongues, that if anything, we should be MORE skeptical about different kinds of "claimed" tongues.

I will get sceptical on here with you, Rick. But I need to worship God in church free from nagging questions and doubts.

as there is no doubt that I have witnessed wonders at the hands of the Spirit.

RickD wrote:There is a doubt in my mind and spirit, that what you have witnessed is not the Spirit of God. It may have been the flesh, or at worst, demonic.

I understand your concern with charlatans, Rick, but I can tell you that my church is neither a sideshow or circus.

We are all the church.

RickD wrote:Who is the church? Anyone "slain in the spirit"?

All Christians are the church.

RickD wrote:Danny, I don't want to come off sounding like a buzzkill, for lack of a better term, but I just ask you to pray for discernment in this. I know you are searching for more to your life and a better and closer relationship with God. I just don't know if you really have the discernment to know what you're getting yourself into.

I will keep praying to God, of course, for discernment on this, Rick.

RickD wrote:Frankly, I'm surprised no one else has picked up on any of what I've seen in your posts. There is a prominent poster here that is much more experienced in this stuff than I am. I hope he can chime in on this. Danny, what I'm saying here is out of a sincere concern for you as a Brother in Christ. I've had a very close family member get caught up in a really unhealthy environment that was similar to what you have described. She has been out of the environment for many years now, and still struggles with some of the unbiblical things that went on there.

I hope this poster gets in on this too. Can't think of who this might be. But I definitely want to be challenged hard on this. So here's hoping.

I certainly appreciate your brotherly concern here, Rick. I was the biggest Christian sceptic I ever knew! I just hope you appreciate that I am no sucker in life and am not likely to have my trousers pulled down by some charlatans.

RickD wrote:Or, I could be completely wrong, and you really could have experienced God. Please don't jump into this with spiritual blinders on your eyes.

I certainly believe that I have experienced God. I'm 100 percent positive. Does this mean I'm seeking after experiences above God? No. Does it mean I'm placing experience above what is right? No. I'm simply describing my experience.

RickD wrote:From gotquestions.org:

A believer's focus needs to be Jesus Christ, the "author and perfecter of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2), not on oneself, one’s experiences, or even the Holy Spirit. The Toronto Blessing focuses on the last, to the detriment of biblical faith. Believers can have fun, dance, sing, even shout to the Lord. However, when a worship service resembles the dream of a demented schizophrenic and attributed to the work of the Holy Spirit, only one word comes to mind: heresy.

gotquestions have a lot to answer for here, Rick. I'd like them to to show me how they distinguish between worshippers having fun & joy etc. and "demented schizophrenic" behaviour. I deal with some schizophrenic behaviour in my line of work, Rick. Let's be sure that gotquestions have their fingers on the pulse here before we believe blithe words from them. I'm conscious that there are some organisations out there charging £15.99 for your salvation. I'm sure you, like me, are sceptical at the goings on within some organisations. I'd like to think that you can trust that I am no sucker, Rick. Thanks for your honesty in challenging me on this. I hope I have put your mind at ease even just a little bit. But if not then I welcome more honesty and robustness from you, brother.

After reading thru this topic, I had know idea it would turn into a slugging match; therefore, it maybe better to discuss Joy in the Holy Spirit rather than pick bones.

So here are a few questions for the reader to ponder:

Bible speaks of having joy - what would it look like? or does God only approve of an emotionless Church without joy?

Those are the questions we should ask or better yet - do I have joy or ever experienced such as the bible speaks of?

Act 13:52, "And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit..."

Rom 14:17, "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Rom 15:13, "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."

1 Th 1:6, "And you became followers of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Spirit..."

Questions for the readers:

How do you define joy in the Holy Spirit?

What would it look like in your church – your life?

What of these Verses?

Psalms 5:11, "But let all those rejoice who put their trust in You; Let them ever shout for joy, because You defend them; Let those also who love Your name Be joyful in You."

Psalms 16:11, "You will show me the path of life; In Your presence is fullness of joy; At Your right hand are pleasures forevermore."

Psa 32:11. "Be glad in the LORD and rejoice, you righteous; And shout for joy, all you upright in heart!"

Psa 43:4, "Then I will go to the altar of God, To God my exceeding joy; And on the harp I will praise You, O God, my God."

Ec 2:26, "For God gives wisdom and knowledge and joy to a man who is good in His sight; but to the sinner He gives the work of gathering and collecting, that he may give to him who is good before God. This also is vanity and grasping for the wind."

What does such joy look like or what would it look like in your life and church?

Bible quotes from the NKJV
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With regards to your video, Rick: you tell me! I don't know. I've seen a lot of charlatans in my time. But what about the flock in the presence of the charlatan? You tell me if they are experiencing the Holy Spirit or not. I wouldn't presume to know. I'll stand and identify the charlatan with you if I can. But I won't tell somebody they have not felt the Presence if they say they have. I'm done with that kind of presumptuous naysaying.

Danny, if you're not sure if the people in the video are "experiencing the Holy Spirit", then I believe you seriously need to pray for discernment. That is all I have to say on this. I pray that God gives you the discernment to deal with this. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about this. That wasn't my intention.

When I have heard people say they are drunk on the spirit, they have been happy, sometimes filled with laughter, perhaps have their hands raised in the air, and more often that not have their eyes closed. I used to think all of this was a bit weird. But now I see it as a genuine, affectionate relationship with God. I've moved on from my stiff upper lip approach.

I have absolutely no problem with folks raising their hands. My question always will be, "is it this real when the show is off, and you are alone?" I've been to these assemblies, and events, where charasmatic experiences are going on. And I have very little doubt that much is simply self-induced euphoria. I also believe that some of it is genuine. I had a friend healed at the Brownsville revival that went on to give up his career and serve faithfully in the Brazilian mission field. But, also in rare instances I have wondered if some of this was demonic. I once witnessed a man babbling, stammering, and then going into convulsive fits. It would have complied more with how the bible describes demonic possession versus being filled with the Spirit. The problem I see made by Danny and BW is contrasting the 'stiff upper lip' approach to the charasmatic. More on this later.

I don't say this to downplay anything Danny or anyone else has experienced. Obviously, you were there, we were not.
I'm not here to rain on anyone's personal experience. I've had experiences with the HS, and I'm sure many would have a hard time understanding them as well. However, we are called to test the spirits. If a congregation is operating in blatant disregard to the scriptures, as you say, then I would question the situation, regardless of what I 'felt.' I've been caught up in the euphoria of a ball game, a concert, a party, a movie, and other situations enough to know that 'feelings' can mislead even the most grounded people. In fact the Bible says that even the elect can be deceived. Afterall the most dangerous deception is when we feel we are thinking clearly and have clear perspective. You will never hear me say that I can't be mislead.

Is Christian joy a feeling? A sensation? Do the feelings justify the actions? Is the genuine nature of an experience now determined by, "If if feels good, do it"? Not saying that anyone here is directly saying that, just that it is a percpetion I am getting from reading the thread.

What does such joy look like or what would it look like in your life and church?

I would hope that joy would be manifest in serving one another in love. To be honest, I don't put much stock in what happens for one or two hours on Sunday morning, or at a tent meeting, no matter how many days it goes on.
We also need to ask if the word 'joy' as used in all situations in the Bible are referring to the same thing.

Let's look at the NT. "My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;" James 1:2
Would it be right to make a case that we should seek out temptation to find joy? Hardly. That is why we can't prooftext verses to make this case. No more than we should suggest that every believer run out and buy a harp.

Bible speaks of having joy - what would it look like? or does God only approve of an emotionless Church without joy?

Sorry BW, but as I mentioned earlier, this comes across as a bit of a false dilema. This implies that basically there are only two options. The, "if you must wisper, wisper a prayer," no emotion Christianity. In contrast to the jitterbug Jesus crowd. This seeks to justify the one, not on its own merits, but because of a polar opposite that may be equally dererving criticism. Personally, I think there are problems with both. Of course the church should not be emotionless. However, that doesn't mean that the church should be ruled by, or led around by emotions. Or, that the right kind of emotion is what we see in the Charasmatic movement today.

Act 13:52, "And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit..."

Is the HS an emotion? No. And the context of Acts 13 doesn't describe any physical behavior of the disciples excpet the preaching of the Word.

Rom 14:17, "...for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

Is righteousness an emotion? Is peace an emotion? Peace can certainly manifest itself emotionally, but we know it is much more than that. As is Christian joy. In fact, the context of this verse has to do with eating and drinking. Not hand waving, or physically expressing any emotion.

Rom 15:13, "Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit."

No question that Paul wants us to be filled with joy and peace in believing. And how is this to manifest itself. Emotional outbursts? Laughing? Babbling? Running the isles? Slain in the spirit? No. the manifestation is that we would abound in hope.

Regarding this revival. I see one concern with the promotional material. You can take it for what it is worth.
http://kingdomrevival.org.uk/#/events/4537163632
It clearly says that, "Mike moves powerfully in signs, wonders and miracles...."
Whether intended or not, this exalts the man. A clear red flag too me.

Danny, if this is the website of the church you attended:http://kingdomrevival.org.uk/#/events/4537163632 it walks, talks, and smells like a word-faith/prosperity gospel church. Just by looking at their website on the right side. I looked at "money", and "healing". Their own words show word-faith/prosperity teachings. Danny, please seriously pray about whether God really wants you at this church. If you get caught up in this false gospel, it may do some serious damage to your walk with God. My Mom has been out of a similar church for about 20 years, and she is still recovering from the unbiblical teachings she was into there.

RickD wrote:

With regards to your video, Rick: you tell me! I don't know. I've seen a lot of charlatans in my time. But what about the flock in the presence of the charlatan? You tell me if they are experiencing the Holy Spirit or not. I wouldn't presume to know. I'll stand and identify the charlatan with you if I can. But I won't tell somebody they have not felt the Presence if they say they have. I'm done with that kind of presumptuous naysaying.

Danny, if you're not sure if the people in the video are "experiencing the Holy Spirit", then I believe you seriously need to pray for discernment. That is all I have to say on this. I pray that God gives you the discernment to deal with this. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about this. That wasn't my intention.

Rick, I was unable to listen to the video. That is why I asked you to lead the way. I will listen and watch it now. But I want to discuss whatever I see. I have an idea of what I am going to see, and while it may make me uncomfortable, I'm not just going to accept words like 'demented' and 'schizophrenic' without sound backing.

RickD wrote:Danny, if this is the website of the church you attended:http://kingdomrevival.org.uk/#/events/4537163632 it walks, talks, and smells like a word-faith/prosperity gospel church. Just by looking at their website on the right side. I looked at "money", and "healing". Their own words show word-faith/prosperity teachings. Danny, please seriously pray about whether God really wants you at this church. If you get caught up in this false gospel, it may do some serious damage to your walk with God. My Mom has been out of a similar church for about 20 years, and she is still recovering from the unbiblical teachings she was into there.

Yeah, that's the church, Rick. There's a video on the page you linked to and I was at that same venue but it must have been on a different night. I'm having a little difficulty in understanding your problem with these people, Rick. I am not perturbed by them having a 'donations' facility. Without money we would be a very poor church indeed. How do you think this godandscience site was put together? Not with shirt buttons, and not by will alone.

Please elaborate on this "word-faith/prosperity teachings" you speak of, Rick. I'm somewhat familiar with the term and what alledgedly springs forth from it, but don't see it being practiced here. I'm aware that this church - and my own church, for that matter - is not shy in asking God for wealth, financial security, etc. I personally don't do this. I couldn't. But are they bad people when God says to ask anything in his name? John 16:23-24

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Going back to my initial experience, I had no idea that my own personal encounter with the holy ghost would come under such scrutiny. So let me reiterate: I witnessed a woman healed of arthritis; I witnessed an acoholic, with court cases coming out of his ears and looking worn down beyond belief, renewed by the presence of the spirit. I saw his face turn from one of immense sorrow to one of complete joy - I saw a new man before me; I myself witnessed the presence of God surge through me and bring an amazing peace to me. I could go on, and while these revival meetings are under scrutiny I shall continue to try to weigh the balance and speak of the joy brought to people at at least some of these meetings. And none of this joy, incidentally, was immediately recognisable as being the product of demnted or schizophrenic behaviour. In fact I know the woman and man I speak of here, and neither can be described as such.

B.W. made some valid points. What is it like to experience joy at the hands of the holy spirit?

1 Samuel 1:12-18

Acts 2:1-13

Acts 2:16-18

Joel 2:28

I'm afraid I saw no shocking deviation from any of these descriptions at my revival meeting.

RickD wrote:

With regards to your video, Rick: you tell me! I don't know. I've seen a lot of charlatans in my time. But what about the flock in the presence of the charlatan? You tell me if they are experiencing the Holy Spirit or not. I wouldn't presume to know. I'll stand and identify the charlatan with you if I can. But I won't tell somebody they have not felt the Presence if they say they have. I'm done with that kind of presumptuous naysaying.

Danny, if you're not sure if the people in the video are "experiencing the Holy Spirit", then I believe you seriously need to pray for discernment. That is all I have to say on this. I pray that God gives you the discernment to deal with this. I'm not going to get into a debate with you about this. That wasn't my intention.

I just watched 2 minutes' worth of the video, Rick. Saw a lot of laughter. Assuming the rest of the video consists of the same, can you describe to me exactly what your issue is here, Rick? And Jlay if he wishes to. I'm looking for specific criticisms, not lazy criticisms of the like shown by gotquestions.

Like I say, Rick, I welcome your scepticism, but I really need to understand what it is exactly that you are critcising and why. I was critical myself a while ago, but I realised my criticisms were based solely on my conservatism, which just isn't enough. Why should me being rigid mean that all others should behave like me?

Danny, I've been praying about what to say regarding all this. All I'm hearing is the word "discernment". That you need to pray for discernment in all this.

I looked at a video on the website http://kingdomrevival.org.uk/#/events/4537163632 I saw a man blowing on and putting his hands on people, and then strange things happening. I ask that you study your bible and look for where Jesus or any of the disciples had similar experiences. Surely, Jesus who is God in the flesh should done similar things if what this pastor is doing is by work of The Holy Spirit. Danny, if we lack discernment, we can be easily swayed by all kinds of unbiblical teachings and experiences. I know you are truly searching for more in your life. Please sincerely pray, and God will lead you. If any of what I'm saying is speaking to you at all, then you'll need to find out for yourself if what your experiencing is The Holy Spirit, or something else. You'll need to earnestly pray for discernment, and research signs & wonders, and word-faith/prosperity. I can warn you that where you're going is dangerous, because I've experienced it myself. But, ultimately you'll have to decide yourself if this is something you want to find out the truth about. We can go back and forth and debate this, but it's your life. Please pray for discernment.

Danny,

Our first reaction shouldn't be to condemn or endorse any such thing. It is easy to react to those who criticize, but I see far more trouble with those who want to give you a virtual high five and essentially endorse an experience that they really don't have any details on.

I think you have already brought forward one troubling aspect in regards to your own concerns about their use of tongues. You obviously recognized that what was going on was out of line with the scriptures. However, your response was essentially, let God work it out. I do not see this as a valid assessment. God's word tells us to test the spirits. In other words, God's word tells US to use discernment. Not cross our fingers and hope for the best. Now the tongues issue may not be a real bothersome example for you, but what if it was something that struck more of a chord with you? Would you then leave it to that same thinking? What if they were handling snakes or drinking poison?

I assure you Danny that I am not posting here just to have a knee jerk condemnation. I read the thread many many days before I posted. My first reaction was to just leave my opinion out of it. As the thread developed I became more concerned with the nature of this event. And I have seen nothing but sincere concern from Rick. Obviously there are general opinions about this, but specifics have also been addressed. FWIW, I gave you a specific issue I found in visiting this groups website. That being promoting the revival leader in the way they did. It is a very obvious red flag IMO.

Eventually, the tent is going to get packed up, and the 'meetings' won't be there any longer. I've seen too many examples of people who were left more empty than before. They were running on a high from an experience. When the source of the experience was gone, so was the 'joy.'
Real Christian Joy is not tied to conferences, meetings, etc. Not saying that fellowship and worship can not elicit temporal feelings. I just got back from my Aunt's funeral. There was a sense of joy deeper than a feeling, because we all knew her relationship with the Lord. So, even though we are in a time of loss, we also rejoice. In reminiscing about her life, there was genuine laughter. Not some hysterical outburst.

Rick, Jlay,

First of all it must be said that I wholeheartedly appreciate your concern. I'm not offended by anything being said here. But, once again I am trying hard to search for valid and specific criticisms and can find none in any of your posts. It might be easier for us all if I just go ahead and list some things we can reflect on.

1. The pastor blowing on people.

Is this unbiblical? Or are we saying that we see no evidence of Jesus or any disciples blowing on people? There's a marked difference between the two. So perhaps it is extra-biblical? If one wishes to hold that it is unbiblical then who adjudicates on this and how do they go about it?

2. People laughing in the spirit.

Is this unbiblical? If it is not and is indeed biblical then how do we distinguish between genuine laughter and, to quote Jlay, an hysterical outburst? Again, who adjudicates and what are the criteria involved?

Just two so we can get off the ground here. I'm seriously looking for genuine criticisms and not merely objections based on what you both personally find distasteful.

God bless, brothers

Specific criticisms

-The flyer (which I linked) that exhaults the person, and baits people in with the promise of signs.
-Your report of how tongues are being used.

jlay wrote:...Sorry BW, but as I mentioned earlier, this comes across as a bit of a false dilemma. This implies that basically there are only two options. The, "if you must whisper, whisper a prayer," no emotion Christianity. In contrast to the jitterbug Jesus crowd. This seeks to justify the one, not on its own merits, but because of a polar opposite that may be equally deserving criticism. Personally, I think there are problems with both. Of course the church should not be emotionless. However, that doesn't mean that the church should be ruled by, or led around by emotions. Or, that the right kind of emotion is what we see in the Charismatic movement today...

No problem Jlay, I was not implying that the church be led by emotions alone. I appreciate your concern and share some of your impute on this matter. In Bible Study Fellowship International, we are finishing up the Study in Isaiah and the last two lessons concerned JOY! To sum up briefly in my own words: This Joy comes from knowing the Lord is there, no matter what may come our way, he has a plan and it includes us, and in the end, He in victorious over all and restores all things back to his divine original intent, perfectly making perfect.

The joy of the Lord can and will invigorate us, releave our stresses, make one happy. This comes in seasons and can affect a whole congregation as well too. If a thing is not of the Lord, it will ultimately fail and come to naught. Because there are abuses in the church world in all areas from the whisper prayer group only and the shout’n, jump’n, tongue talking praise, laughter, etc group… does not mean we must absolutely dismiss all ‘these’ phenomenon.

Jesus is the Lord of the Church universal and can deal and do as he pleases. If and when such phenomenons are from the Lord, there is something lasting to a person encountering such that produces a positive impact upon ones relationship with the Lord.

I was rejoicing with DannyM over his experience as the bible shares to us to do. I had no idea that He would stir up a plethora of old mother hens and father roasters and prophets of warning. These are all well intentioned but let’s be careful of not being found guilty of robbing one of his or her joy in the Lord they encounter.

So DannyM, stand tall in the Lord and continue on, my the Lord bless you and always make his face shine upon you!
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P. S. If anyone lives near or in South Dakota – I’ll be at the Holiday Inn in Sturgis off exit -90 30 on Levelle Street -- April 29-30 at 7pm sharing the gospel/testimony there. Then off to a Prayer seminar at Eagle Butte, SD (at the Cultural Center) May 1-4 to help with the revival fires still burning there from the meeting last February.. So if you are around the area feel free to come and visit and if you do, please introduce yourself from the forum so I’ll can say howdy!.

I was rejoicing with DannyM over his experience as the bible shares to us to do. I had no idea that He would stir up a plethora of old mother hens and father roasters and prophets of warning. These are all well intentioned but let’s be careful of not being found guilty of robbing one of his or her joy in the Lord they encounter.

I understand this BW. In fact I was reluctant to comment at all for this reason. However, I think there is enough here to warrant concern. The last thing I want to do is stand in the way of a genuine move of God. That is reprehensible. In fact, often I think people reserve airing their concern for fear of this perception. A double edged sword.

As has already been brought up, there are specific objections. But also, much of what is going on is similar to other events. The fact that they are common objections doesn't make them invalid.