Evidence for God from Science

1984 and Animal Farm by George Orwell are two favorites of mine. Especially 1984, some seriously scary ideas in there that you can see happening today.

In 1984 with some of the psychological stuff, I think how much better off some of the characters would be with belief in God.

narnia4 wrote:1984 and Animal Farm by George Orwell are two favorites of mine. Especially 1984, some seriously scary ideas in there that you can see happening today.

In 1984 with some of the psychological stuff, I think how much better off some of the characters would be with belief in God.

Another would be based upon Thomas More's 'Utopia' which I wonder if anyone recalls this classic...

It lays the frame work to achieve a Utopia... which Animal Farm likewise attempts...
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This post was funny. I'm guessing you just randomly made this up without thinking it through at all or trying to make valid points. You could make a similarly ridiculous list for the christian utopia. Average IQs are higher among atheists than among the religious, but thank you for calling us stupid. Maybe you should use arrogant, angry or litigious to bash atheists instead of "stupid." If you want to talk intelligence, we can throw studies in your face that you're not going to like.

To address your points individually:

neo-x wrote:Guys, an excerpt from my blog about the stupidness of the atheist proposed system.

In the atheist view, the laws of a sweet blissful utopia could be:

1. There is no God, ‘Yipeeeeee!’ so anyone can do whatever they want without feeling sorry.

The rates of religiosity are much higher in prisons than in the general population, so if you're going to argue that religion changes your morality, you would have to argue that being religious actually makes you less moral. Plus, all social animals feel guilty when they do something that hurts another being in their society. All of you with housebroken pets know that even animals (who have no religion) feel guilty if they poop on your carpet. This is not because there is a doggie commandment from God that says they shall not poop on the carpet. It is because they care about you and they know that you don't want them to poop on your floor. Morality has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with evolution. Social animals and humans that are disruptive to society are removed from society by the rest of society and do not reproduce as often as those members that cooperate with everyone else. So evolution leads animals that live together to be more considerate of others, not God. Prisons and the death penalty would also discourage "evil atheists" to behave. Since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they are much more scared of wasting the little time they have on earth in prison. So an atheist society would be much more law-abiding than a society that believes in magical beings and an afterlife.

neo-x wrote:2. Do not teach your children about God, they may develop schizophrenia and split personalities.

Not really sure what your point is here, to be honest. Aren't your children taught about Zeus, Hades, etc in school? An atheist society would just add one more god to the books as "myth." But we would still teach about it/him.

neo-x wrote: 3. Love your neighbor (but you can screw his wife, provided he doesn’t find out.)

With all the child-molesting priests, you're going to try to go there? Lol

neo-x wrote: 4. Do no kill. (this rule makes an exception for people who have religion or called spiritualists or think science is probably not the best way to a future, there goes the innocent peace loving agnostic as well. Also, if the mass killing of some of the above useless, less than human creatures is needed to achieve the ultimate utopia – then by all means it can be carried out without guilt or remorse since the end result will be far more peaceful. Also note that this has been done in the past as well.)

I think this might be a little bit of projection here. It is religious people who have a history of killing off everyone who does not believe in what they believe. Look at current suicide bombers, the cruisades, salem witch trials, Spanish inquisition, the French holy wars, etc. No war has ever been waged for the sole purpose of spreading atheism. It is the religious who are the murders over and over again throughout history. You have no moral high horse my friend. People convicted of committing murder are more likely to be religious than a random person in the population.

neo-x wrote: 5. Also as a precaution, keep away the books from them that teach “do not kill, do not steal, respect your father and mother, love each other as you love your self, turn the other cheek if you are hit, forgive those who hate you” Such written content is extremely poisonous for their young minds and can make them dangerous. As an extension, people found to be reading such materials will be institutionalized in the sate mental asylum on emergency basis. *all expense to be paid by the government.

Nearly every society on earth has the same basic set of moral codes regardless of what religion they subscribe to. That comes from human nature, not God or the bible. Interesting that you chose to list "turn the other cheek" The bible actually says "turn the other cheek" and "eye for an eye," which are two exact opposite stances on revenge.

neo-x wrote: 6. Teach your children how they could have been a naked, lice-rich, hairy fur ball with a large red bottom - had they been born before the last ice age. You can even show them illustrations, they tend to help them understand our animistic sides and traits.

So you reject the idea of evolution because it embarrasses you that your ancestors were non-human primates? Embrace the truth, my friend, not just what you want to believe.

neo-x wrote: 7. Do not discriminate on race, gender, nationality or scientific beliefs. However if you see someone remotely showing any signs of faith, dogma or religion as well as dressing as a nun, you must take them as complete idiots – prone to cause universal doom and the extinction of the human race. In case they are educated you are to simply throw that fact in the basket and assume they are insane.

Religious people believe in incorrect things because most of them were raised with those beliefs and they are surrounded by people with those beliefs. They are also taught that blind "faith" is a good thing and they shouldn't even question their beliefs. They didn't spontaneously come up with their own crazy new religion. But someone in an all atheist society who suddenly became religious would be considered crazy. You would likely consider one of your church members crazy if they suddenly started believing in something radically different from what your church believes.

In psychiatry, the DMS-IV lists all common psychiatric diagnoses. Nearly all psychiatric problems are stated as: "if you have this and this and this then you have this psychiatric disorder...unless this happens to go along with an organized religion or is the result of drugs." I'm not kidding. The psychiatry books actually say that you can't call a person who belongs to a recognized religion crazy. Otherwise 80% of the population would be on medications. So if someone believes aliens created humans and they're talking to him with microwaves and will put him on a fiery red planet if he does anything wrong, that person is a paranoid schizophrenic, unless a major religion adopts that belief. Then he is sane.

neo-x wrote: 8. Since all wars in the past had been caused by religion and because it was the greatest threat to humanity, (surpassing the 20,000 nuclear warheads that could still blow earth to smithereens) all wars from now on will be fought on the basis of science, until and unless we make sure the future looks big enough for a small community of intellects. And please do not go to war if the other country thinks of you as “low level atheists”.

Not all wars were caused by religion. Land, resources, politics and religion are the main causes of war. Religion is often a way to get the uneducated commoners to go along with wars that those in power want to happen for other reasons. The nuclear weapons in today's world make religion extremely dangerous. Most religious people think that there is an afterlife waiting for them and many religious people are willing to die for their religion. Many religions, including Christianity, don't view the end of the world as a bad thing. All it takes is one crazy-religious leader in a country with nuclear weapons who wants the end of the world and we're all extinct. Why should he care? He's got virgins or heaven waiting for him. Atheists would never blow each other up. Our life is all we have and it is important to us. We are not going to press that button!

neo-x wrote: 9. Any philosophy other than the atheist philosophy, is deemed heretic and will have to be proved scientifically for the acquittal of the offender.

"Heretic" is a word religious people (not atheists) use to oppress people. A person with an incorrect point of view would just be looked down upon by other atheists unless or until he proved he was right.
No acquittal required

neo-x wrote: 10. All atheists should never swear by the name of “god” or anything resembling to it, phrases like

Holy god,
Holy mother of God,
oh Jesus!,
I swear to God,
God-damn it
O my God
Holy [poop]

are to be replaced by

dear Aristotle,
dear mother of Aristotle
oh NEWTON!
I swear to the earth’s gravitational pull
Darwin-damn it
O my electrons
Archimedes’ [poop]

etc, etc and anything else that you can substitute with it. Avoid using scientists names like Blaise Pascal, Johann Wolfgang Dobereiner, Louis Pasteur, Chandrasekhara Venkata Raman, Galileo Galilei, Thomas Alva Edison, Leonardo da Vinci -as they may twist the tongue in a long sentence and make you sound shutoo-pid, sorry!

Atheism/Agnosticism is about freedom, not about control. Control is what organized religion wants. Almost every point you make is a projection of religions flaws onto atheism, when atheism is more free from these specific flaw than any other system of belief.

neo-x wrote: So guys, to conclude is to say that the atheist morality is a twisted breed of common sense morals that atheists neither proposed nor they seem to follow them. They get them from us and they are never grateful. They propose false teaching in the name of reason, which I humbly have touched in this post. I think the atheist needs to stop blindly trusting his doctrine and do some digging into it.
A blind atheist and a blind religious person are equally at a disadvantage, the only catch is, at the end of time there is a slight – one in a million chance – that the religious person was right.
Will be back with more soon, folks
Take care
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John

sorry if i posted this in the wrong place. I wasnt sure where'd I post it.

How do you figure atheists got their morals from you? Nearly all societies with vastly different backgrounds have similar morals. Even social animals have similar morals and they have no religion at all. Your religion picked up what everyone already knew the be right and wrong and someone just wrote it in a book and called it the word of God. Nobody came up with "that shalt not kill." If everyone killed society would not exist. Its common sense and a lack of morality is weeded out by evolution. Your points are nonsensical and do more to point out the flaws in religion than to bash atheism as you intended.

So you apparently believe in objective morality? Where did this morality come from? How can you explain it assuming an atheistic worldview? Most Christians will agree that people across cultures and religions do know what is right from wrong... but why? Evolution? Ok, but what makes morality objective? From your post you seem to believe that morality is objective, but how without a law-giver?

Secondly, as far as the "intelligence" question. If I remember correctly, the difference is a grand total of... 3 points... 5? And smart people should know that statistics can mean anything you want them to mean... something atheists have clearly taken advantage of. There's a difference between correlation and causation. Let's say atheists are on average smarter than theists. Is that BECAUSE they are atheists, or is there another common factor, a purely sociological factor, that leads to higher IQs and makes one more likely to be an atheist. Of course, no atheist should deny that there is a huge number of very educated, very smart Christians. The only reason to throw IQs in someone's face its an arrogant and snobbish way to ridicule people.

Another factor, calling yourself a Christian is a very normal thing to do in American society, its not an exclusive term. Atheism is. I'm going to hazard a fairly safe guess and say that people who use more technical terms to describe themselves probably will have a higher IQ than those who simply accept a cultural label without holding any true belief. For example, someone that labels themselves a "reformed calvinist" is probably going to have a higher IQ on average than the average IQ of a person calling himself/herself simply "Christian". In America there isn't a lot of positive reaction to the label "atheist", so obviously those who call themselves atheists have chosen the label themselves rather than simply put no thought into it. Granted this isn't part of a study or anything, but I believe that it is highly likely to influence the numbers.

As far as prisons, that's similar. I can dig up the quote somewhere later if you want, but I believe I did read somewhere that people in prison aren't more likely to believe in God but are simply less likely to label themselves atheists. As I inferred in the previous paragraph, an atheist with less education may not actually call himself an atheist.

I see you are also misusing Scripture by completing ignoring the context of "an eye for an eye". Turn the other cheek was a personal guideline in the NT, an eye for an eye was a societal law for Israel that doesn't apply today.

Atheistic regimes have been responsible for millions upon millions of death in the previous century alone. Atheism is a huge part of an ideology like Communism, for example... as thinkers like Alexsandr Solzhenitsyn have warned. Religion has only been responsible for 7% of wars throughout history.

So yeah, there are some issues here.

Steve wrote:. ..So an atheist society would be much more law-abiding than a society that believes in magical beings and an afterlife...

Yep, you are right.

The old Soviet Union, Red China, North Korea are definitely law abiding Atheist societies…

You got me there…

I Prefer to live in the USA though – you know – the place where the Framers of the Constitution modeled the system of Government upon the biblical principle of divine grace and a three tiered check and balance system of Government (wonder how they came up with three, hmmmm?)

Law abiding people in the USA, historically, yes, until recently, within the past 40 years are so when atheism and leftist socialist thought began destroying the biblically based mores of the people in the USA and eroding our system of Government…
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Has there been an atheistic system of government (not just secular, atheistic) that hasn't been a colossal failure and a negative force in the world? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

narnia4 wrote:Has there been an atheistic system of government (not just secular, atheistic) that hasn't been a colossal failure and a negative force in the world? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Well, to be fair, has there been any Christian government like that? Though I'm not sure there has been any Christian government at all. As for atheistic governments (in general), only Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union come to mind - those are the obvious ones.

SnowDrops wrote:

narnia4 wrote:Has there been an atheistic system of government (not just secular, atheistic) that hasn't been a colossal failure and a negative force in the world? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Well, to be fair, has there been any Christian government like that? Though I'm not sure there has been any Christian government at all. As for atheistic governments (in general), only Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union come to mind - those are the obvious ones.

I would imagine a Christian government, where everyone is unselfish, forgiving, and loving, would be a good government to have, lol. The problem is that it would get corrupted by evil in our world.

eric246 wrote:

SnowDrops wrote:

narnia4 wrote:Has there been an atheistic system of government (not just secular, atheistic) that hasn't been a colossal failure and a negative force in the world? I can't think of any off the top of my head.

Well, to be fair, has there been any Christian government like that? Though I'm not sure there has been any Christian government at all. As for atheistic governments (in general), only Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union come to mind - those are the obvious ones.

I would imagine a Christian government, where everyone is unselfish, forgiving, and loving, would be a good government to have, lol. The problem is that it would get corrupted by evil in our world.

Yes, I agree. There is only one way to properly fix something, and numerous ways to break it.

Steve wrote:This post was funny. I'm guessing you just randomly made this up without thinking it through at all or trying to make valid points. You could make a similarly ridiculous list for the christian utopia. Average IQs are higher among atheists than among the religious, but thank you for calling us stupid. Maybe you should use arrogant, angry or litigious to bash atheists instead of "stupid." If you want to talk intelligence, we can throw studies in your face that you're not going to like.

Really? Like this one?
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/re ... vs_iq.html

Steve wrote:So an atheist society would be much more law-abiding than a society that believes in magical beings and an afterlife.

In Soviet Russia... law breaks YOU!!

Steve wrote:Not really sure what your point is here, to be honest. Aren't your children taught about Zeus, Hades, etc in school? An atheist society would just add one more god to the books as "myth." But we would still teach about it/him.

No comment.

Steve wrote:With all the child-molesting priests, you're going to try to go there? Lol

OK... Until now I was the one who posted links and references to my statements. Now would be a good time for you to do that. Show us some statistics about child-molesting priests. Since everyone's mouths are so full of child-molesting priests, substantiating your claims shouldn't be a problem.

Steve wrote:I think this might be a little bit of projection here. It is religious people who have a history of killing off everyone who does not believe in what they believe. Look at current suicide bombers, the cruisades, salem witch trials, Spanish inquisition, the French holy wars, etc. No war has ever been waged for the sole purpose of spreading atheism. It is the religious who are the murders over and over again throughout history. You have no moral high horse my friend. People convicted of committing murder are more likely to be religious than a random person in the population.

Instead of wasting our time, you should have invested a few minutes of your precious life into reading materials from the very site you're criticising. Here, this one could take less than a minute:
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/wa ... igion.html

As for atheism, Stalin's government intentionally destroyed churches and persecuted Christians, and Pol Pot's regime did something similar. One of their goals was to eliminate religion. Check the 20th century democide statistics and see who holds the pole positions:
http://godandscience.org/apologetics/atrocities.html

Steve wrote:Interesting that you chose to list "turn the other cheek" The bible actually says "turn the other cheek" and "eye for an eye," which are two exact opposite stances on revenge.

I enjoy it when kindergarten atheists cherrypick "contradictions" about the Bible. Some basic knowledge about the Scripture - especially the Old and the New Testament, and the differences between the two, would be very useful to you.

Steve wrote:So you reject the idea of evolution because it embarrasses you that your ancestors were non-human primates? Embrace the truth, my friend, not just what you want to believe.

I asked you in another thread to explain how chemical reactions could search for "truth"...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutiona ... naturalism

Steve wrote:Religious people believe in incorrect things because most of them were raised with those beliefs and they are surrounded by people with those beliefs. They are also taught that blind "faith" is a good thing and they shouldn't even question their beliefs.

I already addressed this. Check Thessalonians 5:21, and Luke 10:27, for a start. The main site also addresses most of your nonsense, as I've pointed out many times.

Steve wrote:So if someone believes aliens created humans and they're talking to him with microwaves and will put him on a fiery red planet if he does anything wrong, that person is a paranoid schizophrenic, unless a major religion adopts that belief. Then he is sane.

Interesting that you mention aliens, since there are prominent atheists who believe aliens created us... in some way.
http://creation.com/designed-by-aliens- ... panspermia

Steve wrote:Atheists would never blow each other up.

I suppose not. Shooting the back of your enemy's head was very popular among atheist communists. It's more convenient than blowing them up.

Steve wrote:"Heretic" is a word religious people (not atheists) use to oppress people. A person with an incorrect point of view would just be looked down upon by other atheists unless or until he proved he was right.

Or, he would be called an "uneducated commoner", as you pointed out in your previous paragraph.

Steve wrote:Atheism/Agnosticism is about freedom, not about control.

For the third or fourth time, how does evolutionary naturalism explain freedom?

Steve wrote:atheism is more free from these specific flaw than any other system of belief.

Well, it most certainly isn't free from logical fallacies.

@steve

OK, here goes niothing...

neo-x wrote:
Guys, an excerpt from my blog about the stupidness of the atheist proposed system.

In the atheist view, the laws of a sweet blissful utopia could be:

1. There is no God, ‘Yipeeeeee!’ so anyone can do whatever they want without feeling sorry.


The rates of religiosity are much higher in prisons than in the general population, so if you're going to argue that religion changes your morality, you would have to argue that being religious actually makes you less moral. Plus, all social animals feel guilty when they do something that hurts another being in their society. All of you with housebroken pets know that even animals (who have no religion) feel guilty if they poop on your carpet. This is not because there is a doggie commandment from God that says they shall not poop on the carpet. It is because they care about you and they know that you don't want them to poop on your floor. Morality has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with evolution. Social animals and humans that are disruptive to society are removed from society by the rest of society and do not reproduce as often as those members that cooperate with everyone else. So evolution leads animals that live together to be more considerate of others, not God. Prisons and the death penalty would also discourage "evil atheists" to behave. Since atheists do not believe in an afterlife, they are much more scared of wasting the little time they have on earth in prison. So an atheist society would be much more law-abiding than a society that believes in magical beings and an afterlife.

The rates of religiosity are much higher in prisons than in the general population-----stats please????

so if you're going to argue that religion changes your morality----never did claim that.

Social animals and humans that are disruptive to society are removed from society by the rest of society and do not reproduce as often as those members that cooperate with everyone else......not always,

Plus, all social animals feel guilty when they do something that hurts another being in their society------no proof that such a reaction study was ever established as proved.

All of you with housebroken pets know that even animals (who have no religion) feel guilty if they poop on your carpet....... no they do not,they do not assign value like us, they just know it will make you angry.

Morality has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with evolution....which evolution and where in point did we first have morailty....how did it start. what were the factors. please do so explain

So an atheist society would be much more law-abiding than a society that believes in magical beings and an afterlife....stats again, provide an example of an existing society

neo-x wrote:
2. Do not teach your children about God, they may develop schizophrenia and split personalities.


Not really sure what your point is here, to be honest. Aren't your children taught about Zeus, Hades, etc in school? An atheist society would just add one more god to the books as "myth." But we would still teach about it/him.

Im not sure what is your point here too???

neo-x wrote:
3. Love your neighbor (but you can screw his wife, provided he doesn’t find out.)


With all the child-molesting priests, you're going to try to go there? Lol

that is bad, no excuses here. but I still know it is wrong, but when an atheist prefers rape over religion, I kind of go

neo-x wrote:
4. Do no kill. (this rule makes an exception for people who have religion or called spiritualists or think science is probably not the best way to a future, there goes the innocent peace loving agnostic as well. Also, if the mass killing of some of the above useless, less than human creatures is needed to achieve the ultimate utopia – then by all means it can be carried out without guilt or remorse since the end result will be far more peaceful. Also note that this has been done in the past as well.)


I think this might be a little bit of projection here. It is religious people who have a history of killing off everyone who does not believe in what they believe. Look at current suicide bombers, the cruisades, salem witch trials, Spanish inquisition, the French holy wars, etc. No war has ever been waged for the sole purpose of spreading atheism. It is the religious who are the murders over and over again throughout history. You have no moral high horse my friend. People convicted of committing murder are more likely to be religious than a random person in the population.

All have killed. that is not the point, atheist regimes killed more than 90 million people in the last century, but again what does that prove. the only problem is when you lack a moral code, you choose one which is convenient. it changes with need, in religion that doesn't happen.

Atheists would never blow each other up. Our life is all we have and it is important to us. We are not going to press that button!

Yes, you wont blow each other up, you will blow the rest of the 84% ppl who believe in magical beings.

So if someone believes aliens created humans and they're talking to him with microwaves and will put him on a fiery red planet if he does anything wrong, that person is a paranoid schizophrenic, unless a major religion adopts that belief. Then he is sane

Hardly intelligent studies you're throwing in my face here, my friend...

Atheism/Agnosticism is about freedom, not about control.

Last 100 years prove otherwise, sorry I do not buy that crap.

How do you figure atheists got their morals from you? Nearly all societies with vastly different backgrounds have similar morals. Even social animals have similar morals and they have no religion at all. Your religion picked up what everyone already knew the be right and wrong and someone just wrote it in a book and called it the word of God. Nobody came up with "that shalt not kill." If everyone killed society would not exist. Its common sense and a lack of morality is weeded out by evolution. Your points are nonsensical and do more to point out the flaws in religion than to bash atheism as you intended.

Thank you for your opinion, and for going the length to write a detailed response to my bash-y post, which was just pun...anyways. For all the certain proved answers you have, I'm sure you think I am an obvious idiot, having low IQ, worshiping magic beings and believing in after life.; well I hope you you start living a life in atheist countries, go, have a shot at it, then come back some time, and tell us how do you feel, later?. there are some great atheist countries to live which follow atheism with a passion and vigor.

neo-x wrote:Thank you for your opinion, and for going the length to write a detailed response to my bash-y post, which was just pun...anyways. For all the certain proved answers you have, I'm sure you think I am an obvious idiot, having low IQ, worshiping magic beings and believing in after life.; well I hope you you start living a life in atheist countries, go, have a shot at it, then come back some time, and tell us how do you feel, later?. there are some great atheist countries to live which follow atheism with a passion and vigor.

Neo, looks like we've been writing rebuttals at the same time. Well written, I just think that I put in more humour, but that's just my opinion...

Anyway, I don't think our atheist friend is going to recover from this. He must have thought he was dealing with illiterate shepherds or something...

Yeah, every once in a while someone comes like that and says: "You're all stupid and there's nothing to your religion or arguments and I have wonderful arguments to show you that". But then they forget this is an apologetics site .
Still, that's usually in response to somewhat arrogant posts like these - which actually belong in the Humor and Jokes section.

SnowDrops wrote:Yeah, every once in a while someone comes like that and says: "You're all stupid and there's nothing to your religion or arguments and I have wonderful arguments to show you that". But then they forget this is an apologetics site .
Still, that's usually in response to somewhat arrogant posts like these - which actually belong in the Humor and Jokes section.

But it is a step forward nonetheless... At least the guy had the guts to come here, most Internet atheists don't. They usually ramble on sites where they're in the majority, so they become super-confident about being right. Turns out that humanity has been deluded for 2,000 years until they came to brighten us. It's like centuries of Christian scholarship haven't found out how to address their typical objections. I must admit that I expected something more challenging... Maybe in his next post?

Ha-ha

Neo, Reactionary: well done, guys!