Evidence for God from Science

Marriage is a serious thing on ALL levels, to go into it with a huge "unknown" like sex is just asking for trouble and makes it seem that marriage is about sex and not about a TOTAL commitement between two people.

That I agree with 100%

PaulSacramento wrote:We date to get to know each other, our likes and dislikes, to see if we are compatiable, why should sexual compatibility be any different?
I am not saying to schlack on the first date, I am saying that when a relationship gets serious then it's time to get serious about the relationship and to see if teo people ARE right for each other.
Marriage is a serious thing on ALL levels, to go into it with a huge "unknown" like sex is just asking for trouble and makes it seem that marriage is about sex and not about a TOTAL commitement between two people.

I agree with Paul on this one. While I slightly lean towards the conservative side in general, I don't see anything wrong when a couple in a serious and stable relationship decide to get to know each other on this final level, to put it that way.

People today get married between the ages of 25 and 30, usually after they finish college and find a job (if not even later). If you meet your girlfriend in your late teens or early 20s, you'll have to wait for years until you become intimate. This can get very frustrating, I'm sure I don't have to tell you about it. You spend the best years of your life "waiting", as a result you idolise sex, and when you do it for the first time, it may not turn out to be what you expected, especially since it's the first time for both of you. As a further result, various "what if" thoughts may start to haunt your mind and deteriorate your relationship. Marriage is for life, it's the conclusion of one stage of life and the beginning of another. I believe that one needs to enter it settled. This forced abstinence from sex, in my opinion, rushes things towards marriage and prevents people from getting to know each other fully, until there's no turning back. I'm not saying that sex isn't at its purest within marriage, it definitely is, but I also believe that it's not dirty before it if the couple has a great respect to each other and good intentions. Furthermore, young people who practise abstinence usually think that everything that wasn't good will become perfect once they get married, that's wrong, it will only become more difficult. It may happen that only after getting married they realize that they were not actually meant for each other - what then?

OK, I extended my train of thought on many sub-topics, but I think you all understand the bottom line of what I wanted to say. Maybe my opinion will change as I grow older and more mature, but a sacrifice to this extent would be, I'll openly admit it, too much for me.

I have to disagree with Reactionary and Paul on this one. Sex before marriage is sex before marriage, no matter the reason. You can try to dance around the issue with whatever excuse you give, but in the end it's still immoral before God, is it not?

but we are getting further and further in other forms.. petting and whatnot.

The Bible tells us to flee from temptation. While we think we are MAN enough to know our limits, at a certain point, our Manliness melts away like an ice under the sun as soon as our body gets in the mood.

Question for you Short: How long does it take to get burned by Fire is you play with Fire? Believe me..... NOT long.

Why is premerital sex bad? Because it is sin before God's eyes.

If you are committed to each other and have openly made that commitment under God then you ARE committed under God.

Why would God aknowledge or be in accordance with a pledge between two people who openly disobeys his Word?
"Hebrews 13:4: Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous. "

Sex itself is not only bad, but is categorized as sexual immorality. All over the Bible God condenms sexual immorality strongly and uses marriage as a mean to keep people from sexually sinning.

1 Corinthians states: But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
One must note that God is not intending sexual activity to be between two committed people, but for two married people. I am not sure what is the difference between commitment and marriage, but clearly God values marriage much more than commitment.

Also, engaging in pre-merital sex causes relational problems. Perhaps, one way we are the light in this world is the way we live it.
Can a Christian truly approach a person and tell him to stop cheating on his wife, while that Christian himself is fornicating? Can a Christian truly approach a prostituTe and give her a word of encouragment and invite her to know Christ, when that Christian himself is swimming in the same exact sin? The Blind cannot lead the blind. No wonder why we, Chrsitians day by day are accused of being the biggest hypocrites, and for valid reasons.

We condemn adultery, yet, when it comes to us and our little sex ralationships with our gf/ fiance, we justify our sin by implying that God knows marriage will follow through /
What rubbish is that? Do we think God is pleased when we distort his Word to "quote unquote" justify our sinful selffish desires?

Reactionary wrote: I agree with Paul on this one. While I slightly lean towards the conservative side in general, I don't see anything wrong when a couple in a serious and stable relationship decide to get to know each other on this final level, to put it that way.

People today get married between the ages of 25 and 30, usually after they finish college and find a job (if not even later). If you meet your girlfriend in your late teens or early 20s, you'll have to wait for years until you become intimate. This can get very frustrating, I'm sure I don't have to tell you about it. You spend the best years of your life "waiting", as a result you idolise sex, and when you do it for the first time, it may not turn out to be what you expected, especially since it's the first time for both of you. As a further result, various "what if" thoughts may start to haunt your mind and deteriorate your relationship. Marriage is for life, it's the conclusion of one stage of life and the beginning of another. I believe that one needs to enter it settled. This forced abstinence from sex, in my opinion, rushes things towards marriage and prevents people from getting to know each other fully, until there's no turning back. I'm not saying that sex isn't at its purest within marriage, it definitely is, but I also believe that it's not dirty before it if the couple has a great respect to each other and good intentions. Furthermore, young people who practise abstinence usually think that everything that wasn't good will become perfect once they get married, that's wrong, it will only become more difficult. It may happen that only after getting married they realize that they were not actually meant for each other - what then?
PaulSacremento wrote: Marriage is about a commitment between two people.
The significance of the "paper" is a legal one, no more, no less.
It makes it a binding contract between two parties and all that the contract encompasses under the Law.
When the vows are give under God, it takes the level of commitment to another level, it is no longer simply a "legal" matter but a matter of profound spiritual and ethical and moral significance.
The issue of sex before marriage is really the issue of sex before commitment.
If you are committed to each other and have openly made that commitment under God then you ARE committed under God.
The formal presence of witnesses just makes the matter more "legal".
There is no greater authority than God and once a pledge has been made under God, it is to God that one will answer to.
As for it being right or wrong to have sex before marriage, well, that is between two people and their God.Marriage is about a commitment between two people.
The significance of the "paper" is a legal one, no more, no less.
It makes it a binding contract between two parties and all that the contract encompasses under the Law.
When the vows are give under God, it takes the level of commitment to another level, it is no longer simply a "legal" matter but a matter of profound spiritual and ethical and moral significance.
The issue of sex before marriage is really the issue of sex before commitment.
If you are committed to each other and have openly made that commitment under God then you ARE committed under God.
The formal presence of witnesses just makes the matter more "legal".
There is no greater authority than God and once a pledge has been made under God, it is to God that one will answer to.
As for it being right or wrong to have sex before marriage, well, that is between two people and their God.

Short i hope you recognize the pattern that is being laid out before your eyes. Each person that try to justify pre-merital sex not once backed up their position with Scripture. All rely on their understand of what Marriage is, and not what God thinks about marriage.

Also, something to consider are the dangers of pre-merital sex. Maybe in your case, STD's is not a problem, but pregnancy sure is. An undesired pregnancy can rush your relationship and pressure you into marriage, or can place you in a tough situation of considering abortion.
Keep in mind, once you have sex the first time, you are GOING to want to have sex a second time, because you want to replay the first sexual encounter, then a third time to expand your curiosity, and from there, basically, the habits forms.

I read in a post that someone said if you make a committment before God, it is alright to have sex?? God forbids something happens and you guys break up, will that be considered as divorce in the eyes of God?? Ill let you answer that.

Reactionary: but a sacrifice to this extent would be, I'll openly admit it, too much for me.

Bro, going with a defeated mindset, of course it is evident you'll give into temptation as soon as it shows up, its good to be honest with yourself, but as Chrsitians, we need to strenghen the areas where we are weak. If sexual temptation is so great for us, especially MEN, lol, we must ask God for the courage to resist such fleeting temptations.
Short, if you do wait for marriage, i am claiming that you shall never regret it,

I read in a post that someone said if you make a committment before God, it is alright to have sex?? God forbids something happens and you guys break up, will that be considered as divorce in the eyes of God?? Ill let you answer that.

I think you put it very adequately. I agree 100%, pre-marital sex is what it is, there is no going around it. And the Bible tells us not do it. plain and simple.

FearlessLlearsy wrote:Also, engaging in pre-merital sex causes relational problems.

Can you elaborate on that statement? I've had a totally different impression, as I wrote.

FearlessLlearsy wrote:Can a Christian truly approach a person and tell him to stop cheating on his wife, while that Christian himself is fornicating? Can a Christian truly approach a prostituTe and give her a word of encouragment and invite her to know Christ, when that Christian himself is swimming in the same exact sin? The Blind cannot lead the blind (...) We condemn adultery, yet, when it comes to us and our little sex ralationships with our gf/ fiance, we justify our sin by implying that God knows marriage will follow through

Why do you equate fornication with adultery? Besides, I never mentioned prostitution, I wrote about a serious, respectful relationship between a couple. You understand, of course, that those are two radically different things. A person who has a gf/fiance, obviously isn't cheating on his wife, or anyone, for that matter. Nor does he engage in sex just to satisfy the most primitive urges, as in prostitution.

FearlessLlearsy wrote:Short i hope you recognize the pattern that is being laid out before your eyes. Each person that try to justify pre-merital sex not once backed up their position with Scripture. All rely on their understand of what Marriage is, and not what God thinks about marriage.

True, I was bringing up my personal opinion. However, I didn't write much about marriage itself as I don't question its qualities, I wrote more about how people behave before they enter it.

FearlessLlearsy wrote:Also, something to consider are the dangers of pre-merital sex. Maybe in your case, STD's is not a problem, but pregnancy sure is. An undesired pregnancy can rush your relationship and pressure you into marriage, or can place you in a tough situation of considering abortion.

You may be surprised, but in my country, most abortions are performed not by unwed teens, but by married women, who felt that they had "too many children to support", but didn't bother to use birth control. Most pregnant teens that I know or have heard of firmly decided to give birth. It turned out that young people are actually more sexually responsible than married couples with children, as a study showed. This only corroborates my statement that things aren't rosy in marriage, as many young people who abstain think.

FearlessLlearsy wrote:Bro, going with a defeated mindset, of course it is evident you'll give into temptation as soon as it shows up, its good to be honest with yourself, but as Chrsitians, we need to strenghen the areas where we are weak. If sexual temptation is so great for us, especially MEN, lol, we must ask God for the courage to resist such fleeting temptations.

I know... I'm sorting things out in my mind with that issue. I just wanted to point out that marriage won't automatically wipe out all the problems and difficulties, and that one needs to carefully make a decision which is permanent. I still hold to the view that contained sexual desires may blur one's reason while making such life-changing decisions.

I just wanted to point out that marriage won't automatically wipe out all the problems and difficulties, and that one needs to carefully make a decision which is permanent.

That is true (however not enough to give credibility to pre-marital sex. )

Umm marriage back then was like done at early age probably teens ... so they never had the problems teenagers had today about sex.. as other posts have been made about abstinent teens. Unless i'm wrong of course, but that's why i hold to the view that it's okay if the 2 young couples of made a commitment to stay together till " death do us part" . Yes its very rare these days but it does happen and i would think its absolutely fine in the eyes of God.

Can you elaborate on that statement?

Sure. First, as we all know, all sin damages our relationship with God himself. Because we are Christians, and we are his children, he does forgive us from our sins. However, how is it that we fully engage, play, and sink in sin when we know it is not in accordance with God? I do realize that God is a merciful Father, but why one would engage in something they KNOW is wrong? In a sense, that is mocking/abusing God's mercy. I clearly understand in our daily lives, we commit sin : lying, stealing, cheating ect.... But you see sexual immorality is a sin we have the will and power to resist. Most of us engage in sexual immorality fully knowing this is sin before God, while it is in our control to avoid it.
Let me give you an example: In my young teens, i used to wacth pornography....yes i know,
I guarantee you, that was not even sex, but there was not a day that went by when I watched pornography, that i felt my relationship damaged with God. Porn stood infront of God. And all of us have a stumbling block. I think Jesus does a great thing at explaining this: And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.
For us, we have different stumbling blocks, but sexual immorality tends to be a big one.
SO, you must ask yourself: Is my relationship with God more important than the one I have with this or that girl?
2.

I've had a totally different impression, as I wrote.

I have a question to ask you. Are you married? If not, then you wont see the damages pre-merital sex causes until your married. I would say ask that question to a married couple,
3.It causes the way other people view us. Jesus calls us to be a lamp in the darkness, a light to the world. Our very lives are a testimony to God's glory. Blatantly giving into sin, is blatantly turning off our lamps. By having pre-marital sex, you are not necessarily damaging your relationship with that girl, but you are dimming your light,

Why do you equate fornication with adultery?

Because both are labeled under the same category: Sexual immorality.
Is it right to fornicate? No
Is it right to commit adultery? NO
Are both sexual activities? Yes
Then ultimately, both are at source, sexual immorality.

Besides, I never mentioned prostitution, I wrote about a serious, respectful relationship between a couple

But you see, what that couple is doing is the exact thing that the prostitute does. Both are engaging in sexual immorality. When it comes to sin, God does not see the conditions- To Him, sin is sin.

A person who has a gf/fiance, obviously isn't cheating on his wife, or anyone, for that matter

But in both cases, both are swimming in sexual immorality

Nor does he engage in sex just to satisfy the most primitive urges, as in prostitution

Need I remind you that 85% of prostitutes are not satisfying their primitive urges, but are trying to make a living- Trying to survive. In desperation, they use their bodies as a mean of making a living. Believe me, when a prostitute smiles and seems happy, deep inside, their hearts are broken in a million pieces that only Jesus can put together. Talk with any woman you USE to be a prostitute, and know how she felt before drawing broad conclusions.

You may be surprised, but in my country, most abortions are performed not by unwed teens, but by married women, who felt that they had "too many children to support", but didn't bother to use birth control. Most pregnant teens that I know or have heard of firmly decided to give birth. It turned out that young people are actually more sexually responsible than married couples with children, as a study showed.

I want to take your word for it, but this is somewhat Ipse Dixit. If you can provide a chart that all of us can clearly see, that would be much better. Logically, i dont understand why a married couple be more prone to abortion then teens. But, I wont elaborate on the subject. If you can provide a source, i wont question the validity of your claim. However, you must be remembered, that your country only equates for less than 10% of the world, and in other countries, it may not be the same.

CeT-To wrote: marriage back then was like done at early age probably teens

Does that change the definition of Marriage?

so they never had the problems teenagers had today about sex

Very true, but is that a reason to give into sin? Is that a reason to surrender to temptation? I believe it is all the more better to have a closer walk with God, so that when those temptation come in waves, we are able to withstand them, because our foundations are laid on rocks, and not sand.

but that's why i hold to the view that it's okay if the 2 young couples of made a commitment to stay together till " death do us part" . Yes its very rare these days

The real question is how RARE does that happen?

that's why i hold to the view that it's okay if the 2 young couples of made a commitment to stay together till " death do us part"

Is your view in accordance with God? If yes, I would most seriously ask you how? If no, I would humbly ask you to consider your position on the matter, and clearly see what God's intentions are on the matter

Sex before marriage has nothing to do with adultery, unless one of the partners is married of course, LOL !
As for immoral sexual acts, well that is a huge scope right there.
Immoral or illecit sex or fornication, which ever term you prefer, encompassed everything from sex with prostitues, animals, same gender, incest and so forth.
I don't recall any explicit biblical passage against sex before marriage...
Of course if a bride was found NOT to be a virgin, I think that was a stoning offense for the ancient Hebrews ( I am be mistaken).
Of course pratically everything was a stoning offense or an "abomination" for the Hebrews, LOL !

PaulSacramento wrote:I don't recall any explicit biblical passage against sex before marriage...

Neither do I, actually... I think we would easily draw a conclusion to this discussion if someone produced a quote from the Scripture that deals with the premarital sex issue. But a clear and explicit one, not one dealing with sexual immorality in general, because "sexual immorality" is a very broad term, as we can see.

I have a good friend of mine name Roy, he was married for 7 years, the last 5 being almost sexless.
He is a very devote RC, as was his wife and they did not have any sex before marriage, she was quite adamant about that.
Well, the sex, when it happened, was cold, impersonal and solely for the sake of "child bearing" and after they did have a child, it got worse, colder until it was sexless.
The went to conselling, both through the Church and through professional therapy.
The simple matter is that regardless of what he did or tried to do, she was NOT interested in sex, period.
The got divorced, he got custody.
Quite honestly the sexual incompatibility was just insurmountable.
And she had always been this way ( according to her at least) and she saw nothing wrong with it.
At least my friend got a wonderful little girl out of it.
Would sex before marriage brought this issue to light?
Maybe.

I suggest this page, myself.

PaulSacramento wrote:I have a good friend of mine name Roy, he was married for 7 years, the last 5 being almost sexless.
He is a very devote RC, as was his wife and they did not have any sex before marriage, she was quite adamant about that.
Well, the sex, when it happened, was cold, impersonal and solely for the sake of "child bearing" and after they did have a child, it got worse, colder until it was sexless.
The went to conselling, both through the Church and through professional therapy.
The simple matter is that regardless of what he did or tried to do, she was NOT interested in sex, period.
The got divorced, he got custody.
Quite honestly the sexual incompatibility was just insurmountable.
And she had always been this way ( according to her at least) and she saw nothing wrong with it.
At least my friend got a wonderful little girl out of it.
Would sex before marriage brought this issue to light?
Maybe.

This isn't a proper excuse for pre-marital sex at all. His wife clearly didn't read 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.

3 The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

Secondly, I don't believe divorce was the right course of action at all. This page is a great resource concerning marriage and divorce

Well Paul, it is sad for your friend. However, in the first place, I would make sure to be in agreement with my fiance about sex. Tell her that we need to have a fruitful (not meaning kids only) sexual relationship. Maybe, he did not fully understand her position on sex...

I have a good friend of mine name Roy, he was married for 7 years, the last 5 being almost sexless.
He is a very devote RC, as was his wife and they did not have any sex before marriage, she was quite adamant about that.
Well, the sex, when it happened, was cold, impersonal and solely for the sake of "child bearing" and after they did have a child, it got worse, colder until it was sexless.
The went to conselling, both through the Church and through professional therapy.
The simple matter is that regardless of what he did or tried to do, she was NOT interested in sex, period.
The got divorced, he got custody.
Quite honestly the sexual incompatibility was just insurmountable.
And she had always been this way ( according to her at least) and she saw nothing wrong with it.
At least my friend got a wonderful little girl out of it.
Would sex before marriage brought this issue to light?
Maybe.

While this is touching we can go right into the other direction and find that. I remember last year, in a camp that i went to, I had a counselor, who's name was Mr. Pardave. He was a middle aged man, and a very cool guy. One day, we were discussing the benefits of waiting for marriage. He admitted that he and his wife engaged in a great sexual relationship before they got married. However, a couple years later, by the time marriage came, the woman was starting to be uninterested to sex. A couple years passed, and sex was something she was tired of hearing. He had told us because they had such extensive pre-marital sex, when marriage sex actually came, it was not full of energy and passion anymore. However, he did not divorce his wife, LOL
So, we can take examples from both sides of the field

Immoral or illecit sex or fornication, which ever term you prefer, encompassed everything from sex with prostitues, animals, same gender, incest and so forth.

I must say fornication encompasses also sex between two individuals who are not married,

I don't recall any explicit biblical passage against sex before marriage...

Funny how i was just waiting for you to come up with that question
1 Corinthians 7:2 is essentially saying that, because people cannot control themselves and so many are having immoral sex outside of marriage, people should get married. Then they can fulfill their passions in a moral way.

If that is not enough for you guys, then maybe consider the following: Hebrews 13:4 Let marriage be held in honor among all, and let the marriage bed be undefiled, for God will judge the sexually immoral and adulterous.
No matter what we say to justify pre-merital sex, it will always remain a sin before God.

Not being sexually compatible is not the reason to have pre-marital sex. Work it out and honestly some people just don't like sex. So yeah one has to be pretty open about the subject before going to marriage. but it is in no way a logic to defile the bed. examples are on both sides but they are irrelevant. The bible doesn't support any type of sex outside of marriage, thats the bottom line.

And I really feel sorry for your friend, but I also feel sorry for a lot of girls and boys, couples who have sincerely regretted the decision to have pre-marital sex. I have friends from both camps, but accepted behavior doesn't overrules the word of God. Even if it is more convenient, at the end you can not say I did this because it was more convenient for me. Convenience against a command of God doesn't merit any favor. because there are lot of bad things that happen around the world for the name or sake of convenience.