Evidence for God from Science

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:05 pm**

MarcusOfLycia wrote:It is often natural for a man to lust after a woman who is not his wife and commit adultery. It is often natural for a man to hate someone else for what they've done until they actively seek to cause the person pain. These things are totally natural and totally evil.

Here's the part I don't understand: Things like adultery and violence are harmful to society (or, if not society as a whole, then to the individuals involved). It doesn't take scripture to understand that - a six-year-old could tell you the difference between right and wrong in those cases. What exactly is evil about homosexuality? Example: I'm friends with a gay couple who have been together for 36 years. They are in one of the most loving relationships I've ever seen. They laugh together, they do community service together, they dote on their adorable dog, and they regularly give money to a variety of charities. One is a successful physical therapist and the other is a teacher. No one could possibly say that they're anything but fine, upstanding members of society. So... what am I missing here? You can't possibly compare their healthy, loving relationship to adultery or violence. And yet they're sinners in your eyes? If Christianity is a religion that shuns people simply because of who they're naturally attracted to... I'm pretty thrilled to not be a part of it. What kind of God turns his back on positive, happy, generous people?

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:07 pm**

FrecklesNYC, this was between you and Paul, but I'll grant myself the right to intervene in the discussion:

FrecklesNYC wrote:What you're struggling with is the fact that you're using your brain, and your brain is telling you that despite your faith and the book that you believe in, discriminating against people for something they can't help is inherently WRONG.

Writing something with caps lock on doesn't make it a true fact. There are only two possibilities:
1) Christianity is true, which would mean that everything written in the Bible is correct.
2) Christianity is not true, therefore there is no right or wrong, no objective morality, only man-made laws. In that case, both mine and your opinions are completely irrelevant, and a result of blind chemistry. I'd rather stick with my neurons.

FrecklesNYC wrote:What if the Bible adamantly stated that left-handedness is a sin? We clearly know that being left-handed isn't a choice... so would Christians still have the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality?

What if, what if... Well, the Bible doesn't state anything like that. It does state a few impressive truths about the human body that couldn't in any way be discovered at the time when it was written, such as:

- The life is in the blood (Leviticus 17:11). In the past, blood-letting was a usual therapy for many illnesses, and science found that it could kill people instead of curing them.
- Circumcisions should be performed on the 8th day after birth (Genesis 17:12). Science found that prothrombin and vitamin K, responsible for blood clotting, are on their record high during the day 8.
- Laughter can physically heal (Proverbs 17:22),

...and so many more. Quite impressive for a two-millenium-old book, huh?

FrecklesNYC wrote:Look, I'm not a Christian but I will will always be in support of freedom of religion. If you're a Christian (in the literal sense of doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life, etc.) then good for you! You have my wholehearted blessing. But it's 2011. The world is completely different than in was in 30 C.E., and to pretend that we can still live by Iron Age societal rules is not only foolish but short-sighted.

FrecklesNYC wrote:If Christians want their religion to thrive in the 21st Century, and be relevant to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated from infancy, they need to learn how to adapt to the times.

No, chronological snobbery is foolish!

- Slavery is illegal, yet the number of slaves has never been higher.
- Everyone's mouths are full of "human rights", yet dozens of millions of unborn children are killed every year.
- Divorce rates have never been higher.
- The 20th century was bloodier than the first 19 combined.
- Millions are starving around us, not to mention the Third World.

To pretend that in the year 2011 we're a civilization more advanced than in the past, is foolish! We're a fallen mankind and only God can help us, and since we keep abandoning Him more and more, I'm afraid that the worst is yet to happen. Brilliant times to adapt to!

FrecklesNYC wrote:And right now that means understanding the gay community and being accepting, because there's no doubt that that's what Jesus would have done.

What do you know about what Jesus would have done? Some people today portray Jesus as some hippy, anarchist, communist or whatever suits their ideology the best. Yet he brought what may easily be the strictest moral law in history. Look up Romans 1:26-27.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:08 pm**

FrecklesNYC wrote:
PaulSacramento wrote: And yet I have seen the love between two gay people and it is real and it is love. I truly do not know HOW I truly feel about this issue.
Paul, if I may... I believe you're struggling because you fundamentally understand that being gay is not a choice (I don't care what the articles say on this site about "inconclusiveness" - it's hogwash, which you know as well as I do) as you've met gay people and talked to gay people and understand that they were all born gay. 100% of them. (Any statistics on marriage are irrelevant, as many gay people - particularly gay Christians - choose to go against nature and marry straight folks out of fear of discrimination from their own community. Which is just so, so sad.) What you're struggling with is the fact that you're using your brain, and your brain is telling you that despite your faith and the book that you believe in, discriminating against people for something they can't help is inherently WRONG. What if the Bible adamantly stated that left-handedness is a sin? We clearly know that being left-handed isn't a choice... so would Christians still have the "love the sinner, hate the sin" mentality?

Look, I'm not a Christian but I will will always be in support of freedom of religion. If you're a Christian (in the literal sense of doing unto others, leading a good, charitable life, etc.) then good for you! You have my wholehearted blessing. But it's 2011. The world is completely different than in was in 30 C.E., and to pretend that we can still live by Iron Age societal rules is not only foolish but short-sighted. Bigotry is wrong, period. I don't care if it says it's ok in The Bible or in Jane Eyre. We fundamentally understand right from wrong as humans who strive to 'do onto others.' If Christians want their religion to thrive in the 21st Century, and be relevant to anyone who wasn't indoctrinated from infancy, they need to learn how to adapt to the times. And right now that means understanding the gay community and being accepting, because there's no doubt that that's what Jesus would have done. This 'pesky' issue isn't going to go away. There were gay people in Jesus' time, and there are gay people now - they're just finally having the courage to say out loud what they've always been. Keep struggling with this, Paul, because it means that you're thinking for yourself. I wish more Christians would do the same.

Thank you for you kind and heart felt words

I am a Christian and that is the issue, but not because of what you might think.
Being a Christian is as much about love as it is following Christ, indeed, the sign that one is following Christ is by how the love and show love.
As you said I know that being Gay is not a choice, I know NO gay person that CHOOSE to be Gay and all of them would be far getter off NOT being gay, many admit this openly.
It is not a choice they make, but something they have to live with to be happy and loved.
I pray for my Lord to guide me and strengthen me because it is truly a difficult thing to deal with.
Thing is, quite honestly, I couldn't care less about anyone's sexual orientation but we can't ignore the "300lbs elephant in the room".

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:18 pm**

I see nowhere in Scripture that suggests homosexuality is okay, but many places where it is condemned. Do you have Scriptural support of homosexuality as an acceptable Christian practice?

Also, I don't quite understand how you can pick and choose different sins ans 'hardwired' and 'not hardwired'. What are you using to base these opinions on?

I don't. And I admit this issue is a huge stumbling block to me because it seems to be one of the only places where the Bible seems to conflict with reality. It is also one of the reasons I understand why a lot of non-Christians are hostile to Christianity.

By hardwired, I mean a characteristic that is present from birth and is not controlled by the individual. Study after study seems to show that homosexuality is about as nautral and innate to the homosexual as being left handed would be to a left handed person. Most sins like murder and adultery are driven by impulses in people that are not nearly as "innate" in the person. A murderer will not be likely to claim that they were born a murder and that they cannot change, unlike the homosexual.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:19 pm**

Reactionary wrote: To pretend that in the year 2011 we're a civilization more advanced than in the past, is foolish! We're a fallen mankind and only God can help us, and since we keep abandoning Him more and more, I'm afraid that the worst is yet to happen. Brilliant times to adapt to!

I never said that society is better or worse than it was back then, just that it's different. And I humbly apologize for suggesting what Jesus would or wouldn't do, because I've never met him. You're right. But neither have you. Both of us have the exact same reference material (the Bible) from which to formulate our thoughts on the matter, and from what I've read I just can't imagine someone as loving and accepting as Jesus ever turning someone away because of who he was naturally attracted to. That'd be pretty sad, if you ask me. And not someone I'd want as a role model.

(Sorry if my posts are delayed or out of order - I'm new here so everything's being moderated.)

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:20 pm**

Seraph wrote:
I see nowhere in Scripture that suggests homosexuality is okay, but many places where it is condemned. Do you have Scriptural support of homosexuality as an acceptable Christian practice?

Also, I don't quite understand how you can pick and choose different sins ans 'hardwired' and 'not hardwired'. What are you using to base these opinions on?
I don't. And I admit this issue is a huge stumbling block to me because it seems to be one of the only places where the Bible seems to conflict with reality. It is also one of the reasons I understand why a lot of non-Christians are hostile to Christianity.

By hardwired, I mean a characteristic that is present from birth and is not controlled by the individual. Study after study seems to show that homosexuality is about as nautral and innate to the homosexual as being left handed would be to a left handed person. Most sins like murder and adultery are driven by impulses in people that are not nearly as "innate" in the person. A murderer will not be likely to claim that they were born a murder and that they cannot change, unlike the homosexual.

Lust, hate, envy, jealousy, and those things aren't innately natural things in a human being? Most Christian theologians through the ages would disagree with you. Read Augustine and you can see just how much lust impacted his life even as a Christian - he never could choose not to lust, only not to act on it and to avoid it when he could.

EDIT: From reading what I've written, I can see that it might be easy to see it as argumentative, but that's not what I'm trying to go for. Honestly, I'm trying to figure out where your disconnect with homosexuality/Christianity/sin lies. I don't see it and I'm looking for more clarification, because I see a different position very clearly.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:23 pm**

FrecklesNYC wrote:
Reactionary wrote: To pretend that in the year 2011 we're a civilization more advanced than in the past, is foolish! We're a fallen mankind and only God can help us, and since we keep abandoning Him more and more, I'm afraid that the worst is yet to happen. Brilliant times to adapt to!
I never said that society is better or worse than it was back then, just that it's different. And I humbly apologize for suggesting what Jesus would or wouldn't do, because I've never met him. You're right. But neither have you. Both of us have the exact same reference material (the Bible) from which to formulate our thoughts on the matter, and from what I've read I just can't imagine someone as loving and accepting as Jesus ever turning someone away because of who he was naturally attracted to. That'd be pretty sad, if you ask me. And not someone I'd want as a role model.

(Sorry if my posts are delayed or out of order - I'm new here so everything's being moderated.)

If Jesus isn't God, you could pick and choose what you wanted to out of what He said and ignore what you didn't like, as people do with all sorts of philosophers, moral teachers, etc through the ages. But if He was who He claimed to be, it would be pretty wrong-headed to judge the Creator of our world on morality, when He was the one who instilled it and also its most perfect Judge.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:28 pm**

Whoa, I wrote a whole detailed post here explaining why adultery and violence are completely different than homosexuality. I wrote that post before my most recent post (that ended with the parenthetical about posts getting delayed). Did it not get approved? There was nothing hateful or troll-like whatsoever in my response. In fact, despite fundamentally disagreeing with this site, I have tried to be as thoughtful and respectful as possible. Really, I'm just fascinated by religion and enjoy intelligent debate. But if this site is going to pick and choose what I'm allowed to say, I will angrily sign off and say good riddance. I truly hope that this is just a technical glitch and that my post will appear shortly. If not, Moderator, please explain why you are choosing not to post what I wrote.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:30 pm**

MarcusOfLycia wrote:If Jesus isn't God, you could pick and choose what you wanted to out of what He said and ignore what you didn't like, as people do with all sorts of philosophers, moral teachers, etc through the ages. But if He was who He claimed to be, it would be pretty wrong-headed to judge the Creator of our world on morality, when He was the one who instilled it and also its most perfect Judge.

Well, there you go. I believe that Jesus was a great philosopher and moral teacher, but not divine. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree!

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:32 pm**

FrecklesNYC wrote:I never said that society is better or worse than it was back then, just that it's different.

You said that it was "foolish" and "short-sighted" to live by "Iron Age societal rules". Obviously, you meant that it's better today, why else would you condemn the old order?

FrecklesNYC wrote:And I humbly apologize for suggesting what Jesus would or wouldn't do, because I've never met him. You're right. But neither have you. Both of us have the exact same reference material (the Bible) from which to formulate our thoughts on the matter,

True, however the reference material seems to support my interpretation of the matter, while there is not a shred of scriptural evidence for your view.
Or is there?

MarcusOfLycia wrote:If Jesus isn't God, you could pick and choose what you wanted to out of what He said and ignore what you didn't like, as people do with all sorts of philosophers, moral teachers, etc through the ages. But if He was who He claimed to be, it would be pretty wrong-headed to judge the Creator of our world on morality, when He was the one who instilled it and also its most perfect Judge.

Spot on, Marcus, as always!

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:43 pm**

Reactionary wrote:There is not a shred of scriptural evidence for your view.

"Scriptural evidence" is an oxymoron to me. In my belief system, the Bible is a work of fiction, so it's no more "evidence" than Catcher in the Rye. But I don't need to quote scripture to understand that Jesus was a decent person. Do you?

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:12 pm**

If you ask a child molester why he likes children he will say he was born that way and it's not a choice right...

Notice the similarity between molester’s argument and homosexual argument?

What is the difference between nambla and LGBT? I mean the 15 year old child is consenting to get married to an 80 year old man and the 80 year old man was born to like younger children, so why should we discriminate? It's the way he is you know?

Homosexuality is not a snap of the finger choice, nobody thinks that. Becoming gay is a process of choosing to react to certain aspects of ones life. It's kind of like shyness, you say shyness is not a choice, but in reality it is. Think about it in depth and im sure you will see my point.

Shyness develops from reacting to you social atmosphere. Most shy people do not change in the snap of a finger. Most shy people say that’s they way they are born , they can’t change, ect….

Homosexuality is the same, you CAN change your homosexual ways (exodus) if you 1)actual want to 2) put time effort and prayer into it 3) discipline yourself. Exodus founded by an ex-gay and married to an ex-lesbian, how many thousands of lives have been changed by this program yet we hear nothing of it because the left wants us to keep believing it is not a choice.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:12 pm**

If you ask a child molester why he likes children he will say he was born that way and it's not a choice right...

Notice the similarity between molester’s argument and homosexual argument?

What is the difference between nambla and LGBT? I mean the 15 year old child is consenting to get married to an 80 year old man and the 80 year old man was born to like younger children, so why should we discriminate? It's the way he is you know?

Homosexuality is not a snap of the finger choice, nobody thinks that. Becoming gay is a process of choosing to react to certain aspects of ones life. It's kind of like shyness, you say shyness is not a choice, but in reality it is. Think about it in depth and im sure you will see my point.

Shyness develops from reacting to you social atmosphere. Most shy people do not change in the snap of a finger. Most shy people say that’s they way they are born , they can’t change, ect….

Homosexuality is the same, you CAN change your homosexual ways (exodus) if you 1)actual want to 2) put time effort and prayer into it 3) discipline yourself. Exodus founded by an ex-gay and married to an ex-lesbian, how many thousands of lives have been changed by this program yet we hear nothing of it because the left wants us to keep believing it is not a choice.

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:51 pm**

NO one will agree with your first statement though Murray.

Its just "totally different" then being gay, and to suggest otherwise is crazy talk.
Yet no evidence has been brought to the table to refute your claim other than passion filled rebuttal of "NO that's not right!"

Posted: **Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:59 pm**

I Honestly do not see how they are different............

NAMBLA fights for their right to marry a consenting child, LGBT community fights for their right to marry.

Both claim to be born that way, both say they cannot change, both say it is not a choice, both say they are getting discriminated against (discriminate is their word for disagree), both say Christians "hate them", the list can go on and on......

Evidence for God from Science

Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?

Re: Why do many christians not like homosexuals?