Evidence for God from Science

Byblos wrote:

Gman wrote:Thanks John... While I can understand that from the Christian Lebanese perspective, I don't understand that from the Muslim Lebanese perspective who are already the majority there in Lebanon. To me if they were true Muslims, they would be opening their arms to their Palestinian (Muslim) brothers to become one voice. They don't seem to be doing that but would rather use them as pawns it seems...

They are united in (blinded by) a common cause: hate for Israel.

Yes but it seems they won't absorb them as citizens into their country.. Go figure.

Dear kmr,

You ask a good question. Perhaps also important, besides the actual solutions the two parties seek to implement, is the spirit in which they seek. For both parties, I believe one of the most important things may be to have a spirit of reconciliation and care for eachother. For example, if you have a bad conflict with your cousin or brother, the best thing is to seek to reconcile with him, not merely in a financial or physical sense, but in a spiritual, personal sense as well. Admittedly this can be difficult, and in some cases shouldn't be the only concern. For example, if there is a physical confrontation, you may have to defend yourself. But the general desire I think should be to have reconciliation and care for the other person.

Yes, this can sound contradictory, but this is also a contradiction in Christianity, where it seems to make up with people you are disagreeing with. Perhaps some people may mistakenly understand this to mean you should volunteer for abuse or not talk about it. And the idea about turning the other cheek is hard and confusing. I myself have a very hard time reconciling. Sometimes I go into things hoping for it and it turns out worse. But ideally I think compassion and reconciliation should be important desires.

The Israeli-Palestine conflict, and the resulting problems like occupation and terrorism, is perhaps one of the most difficult ones of this century. And yet I think that even in this darkness there may still be some hope to have the positive and uplifting desire for reconciliation.

One interview that particularly impressed me was in the Christian Post last year, which I would like to share with you:

Interview: Palestinian, Jew on Reconciling through Jesus Christ
By Michelle A. Vu
//www.christianpost.com/news/interviewpal ... rist-47405

Shadia Qubti, a Christian Palestinian Israeli from Nazareth, and Dan Sered, a Messianic Jew from Israel, discussed how believers are helping to reconcile the opposing people groups in an interview with The Christian Post last week at the Lausanne III conference in Cape Town, South Africa. Qubti works with Musalaha, an interdenominational initiative seeking to expand reconciliation between Christian Palestinians and Messianic Jews, while Sered directs Jews for Jesus in Israel. There are about 800 people a year, evenly divided between Palestinians and Israelis, who participate in Musalaha projects.

The following are excerpts from the interview:

CP: Is it possible to have peace in the Middle East? How?
Qubti: I believe in grassroots movements starting with smaller groups that come from the people. I believe as followers of Christ we have a lot of work to do. If we can establish unity among us, between Israelis and Palestinian Christians first, I think that will have a domino effect within our countries and regions. But first we have to try to get along together as a smaller community, as a prototype that this works. Christ is able to do what the world is not able to do. I think peace is possible in the Middle East and we need to be very proactive.

Sered: I couldn’t agree more. I think peace is not only possible in the Middle East, [but] I also believe it is inevitable. When Jesus returns there will be peace in the Middle East and all over the world. Right now, immediately, it is also possible. One by one as Israeli Jews and Arab Palestinians come to faith we are going to see more and more reconciliation and more and more peace. It is only because of the reconciling power of the gospel that we see that, through proclaiming the gospel, through working more and more towards an understanding of reconciliation between men. But first and foremost we must seek reconciliation between men and God and that only comes through faith in Jesus.

CP: How do your parents feel about what you are doing? A Palestinian working with Jews, and a Jew working with Palestinians?

Sered: My parents are very hostile to what I do and who I am. For many years I had no relations with my parents. They pronounce me dead to them and they didn’t want to have anything to do with me. Prior to that, they tried everything they could do to bring me back because as a Jewish person who is for Jesus, in their mind, I became an enemy. So they did everything they could. They sent me to see a psychiatrist, brainwashing expert, an anti-missionary rabbi, and when everything failed they pretty much disowned me and hoped that that would maybe bring me back.

In the process I got married, which of course they didn’t come to our wedding. But then you know grandkids came, our children were born, and then my parents kind of went through the process realizing that they really wanted to have a relationship with their grandchildren. So we have a relationship with my parents now. [But] they are very opposed to what I do now as the leader of Jews for Jesus in Israel. They don’t support it and they are not really understanding or aware of everything that I do. But when it comes to sitting or conversing with Arabs or Palestinians, unfortunately, they don’t appreciate it or like it. But it all comes from, again, a misunderstanding and not believing in Jesus. Really, their hostility towards me is because of my faith in the Lord, in Jesus.

Qubti: My family, my parents are Christians. I come from a Christian background. They are very supportive of my work and my choice of ministering. Although in the community, in general, I think many people when I try to tell them what I do, many ask questions like, “Oh, does that really exists? People really want to reach out to each other? Does it really work? Is that a job or are you volunteering?” It seems like they don’t take it seriously that they don’t think it is very possible or relevant to our contexts. I think people in general are very apathetic. They stopped thinking there might be a change to the situation as a community of Palestinians. But my parents and family, I definitely have their support.

CP: What is the biggest obstacle for a Palestinian to be reconciled with a Jew? Vice versa, what is the most difficult obstacle for a Jew to be friends with a Palestinian?

Qubti: I grew up in the 90’s and that is the time when the peace process and politics were very close, but at the same time there was a lot of violence – suicide attacks and invasions by Israeli army. So growing up [as a Palestinian in Israel], the only contact I had in all of this was the television. I grew up in an Israeli media so I heard a lot of messages about hate against the Palestinians and viewing the other as the enemy, inhuman, demonizing them. On one hand, community that suffered a lot as a result of the establishment of the state of Israel. It is very difficult as a Palestinian to go above these sufferings and reach out and say, “I don’t want violence. I don’t want to see you as my enemy. I don’t want to demonize or dehumanize you, but I want to see you as an equal to me.”

I think together, [however], we can work out our differences. As a Christian Palestinian, meeting Christians from outside in the world who believe Israel is the land of the Jews and the fulfillment of promises, that is also a big obstacle and a big challenge. If you as a Christian believe in this way, saying this happened for a reason, that God wanted it, this clashes with my view that God is the God of love. God embraces everyone, how can He allow this to happen at my expense? That is a big issue that Palestinians deal with, especially meeting Christians from around the world.

Sered: I think from an Israeli perspective, it is a little ironic [because] maybe it is similar to objections Israelis and Jewish people have to Jesus. When it comes to peace with Palestinians, there is just so much ignorance and so much misunderstanding among Israelis about our cousins. Just to get over that. We see the same when it comes to Jesus, there is so much prejudice and misunderstanding about who he is among the Jewish people. It is very similar. I think as Israeli Christians, Israeli believers in Jesus, it really helps when it comes to the theological views Shadia brought up. We really need to understand the purpose of God and there is even a purpose that God had in the rejection of Jesus by the Jewish nation, like the Apostle Paul said it brought reconciliation to the world. There is a greater scheme and a greater plan and it is part of the mystery that we don’t always understand.

[The misunderstanding Israelis have of Palestinians] come out of the survival mode that the Jewish nation has. I think there is definitely this fear and blaming the whole community, whole Palestinian people for a minority extremist group and not really realizing that in the Jewish nation there is also a minority extremist group. In any people there is a minority extremist [group]. We can’t judge everybody collectively, blaming everybody, “Oh wow he is an Arab he must be a terrorist.” I really believe that those feelings come from a lack of a relationship. That is really what it comes down to.

CP: What is the situation in Israel and the West Bank between Messianic Jews and Palestinian Christians? Do they have an amicable relationship?

Qutib: Through the work of Musalaha, Palestinian Christians and Messianic Jews are able to meet each other on a regular basis. For the average Palestinian, his encounter with an Israeli Jew is at the checkpoint, as a soldier, as a figure of authority who control his daily life. There are very few contacts between Palestinians and Israelis in daily life. For an Israeli, it’s the same thing. He does not meet a Palestinian in Israel – Palestinians cannot come and Israelis cannot go to the West Bank. So the only other interaction is maybe if there is a Palestinian worker in the market, then that is the encounter. But that is on a business exchange.

So like Dan said, the relationship between Palestinian and Israelis is not there. There is not much communication. Segregation and division is what characterize the relationship between both sides. In our work we try to create the opportunity for both communities to come and meet by arranging conferences or a follow-up where we meet at a place that is neutral for both. [A place] where they can come and meet and worship together, pray together, and just build their relationship together. Because the closer we get to God the closer we get to each other.

The article has more questions and answers and a video of the interview.

Rakovsky wrote: The article has more questions and answers and a video of the interview.

There should be no two state solution... Either you are with Israel or you are not. There are no negotiations... We Christians must submit to Jewish Zionism.

Choose your side or be left out in the dark.

Gman wrote:

Rakovsky wrote: The article has more questions and answers and a video of the interview.

There should be no two state solution... Either you are with Israel or you are not. There are no negotiations... We Christians must submit to Jewish Zionism.

Choose your side or be left out in the dark.

That borders on the extreme gman......


You must remember these people live their entire lives in refugee tent camps, i do not believe that accepting that is the christian thing to do.

What should really happen is Iran (since they love Palestine so much) should stop spending billions on propaganda against Israel and start helping refugees migrate to other Muslim countries if they hate living in Israel so much.

But in order to keep peace in the meantime, talks must continue

Murray wrote:That borders on the extreme gman......

Yes it does... And I'll tell you why... Many of these refugees want nothing more than the extermination of the Jews. It is written in the Koran, Hadiths, and their charters. They simply do not want peace. These extremists want to destroy the Jews. Wake up.

Murray wrote:You must remember these people live their entire lives in refugee tent camps, i do not believe that accepting that is the christian thing to do.

What should really happen is Iran (since they love Palestine so much) should stop spending billions on propaganda against Israel and start helping refugees migrate to other Muslim countries if they hate living in Israel so much.

But in order to keep peace in the meantime, talks must continue

These camps could be easily absorbed into Jordan, but they refuse and use them as pawns for UN money instead. The boundaries were set for Israel way back in 1922. Actually Israel wants to absorb them into Israel but they don't want that. They despise democracy and only wanted to be ruled under the evils of Sharia Law where women and voting rights are destroyed. That is why they don't want to recognize the Jewish state. They want their own country.. The problem with that however is that these extremists want to destroy Israel. The peaceful loving Arabs simply cannot control these thugs.. That is why this is such a struggle. These peaceful loving Arabs are outnumbered greatly.

Gman, do not forget that 10% of those Palestinians are Christians.

How would you enjoy being told to leave america, your home and you grandfathers home, and go live in Jordan?
I think some of these people seriously do want peace, but some on the extreme do not.

Do not forget that the jews have extremes in Israel too.....

Murray wrote:Gman, do not forget that 10% of those Palestinians are Christians.

How would you enjoy being told to leave america, your home and you grandfathers home, and go live in Jordan?
I think some of these people seriously do want peace, but some on the extreme do not.

No.. You don't understand. The Israelis want them to become part of Israel. All of them.. But they don't because of their religious practices. This is a spiritual problem, not something that can corrected with the stroke of a pen..

Murray wrote:Do not forget that the jews have extremes in Israel too.....

I'm not saying that all the Israelis have it all together either. But they corporately have to protect themselves too. Read up on the Koran or Sharia law sometime. I'm assuming you have. Right?

Not to hijack the thread, but care to justify this?

We Christians must submit to Jewish Zionism.

Maybe we need a new thread for that...needless to say, I strongly disagree.

As for the rest of the discussion, Israel is in big trouble. One cannot look at the situation they are in by looking at it one issue at a time, one needs to consider the complete strategic picture:
1. The Arab spring revolutions has replaced multiple governments that were at the very least tolerant of Israel's statehood with radical Islamic governments.
2. The US is prematurely withdrawing from Iraq, with the objectives from the original war resolution not accomplished. It is likely to result in yet another strong antagonist towards Israel, with the ascension of Al-Sadr to a position of influence pretty much a given.
3. Iran, which has a stated official goal to destroy Israel, has been allowed to move towards nuclear capability with long-range delivery capabilities.
4. Israel's allies are getting fewer and weaker, and the ability of those allies to come to Israel's assistance are depleted.
5. By introducing Palestinian statehood, the groundwork is being laid for a future "do-nothing" from the UN.
6. Global conferences, like Durban 2, are held to inflame global opinion against Israel.
7. Continued griping and fighting about the Gaza strip, the occupied territories, housing and returning to previous borders all serve to move an insurgency closer to Israels doorstep...with the Palestinians wittingly or unwittingly as the proxy front line soldiers.
8. Many governments in the region are state sponsors of terrorism against Israel, and that number is on the increase...e.g. Turkey, who used to be neutral, now turns a blind eye and seem to be aligning with other enemies of Israel.

So what possible outcomes can there be?
1. Any political outcome through the UN is likely to be extremely unfavorable to Israel in its current state.
2. If there are aggressive moves to Israel from a strong regional antagonist like Iran, it is virtually certain that other countries will follow.
3. A military conflict of any kind will pretty much destroy Israel, but they will do a lot of damage themselves.
4. With so much global negative press, shrinking neutrals around them, and a weakening of their allies, Israels ability to negotiate is significantly reduced, and peaceful outcomes seem impossible, apart from an almost total surrender from Israel.

Like I said, not looking good for Israel from a strategic perspective, probably the worst since '68.

Gman wrote:

Murray wrote:That borders on the extreme gman......

Yes it does... And I'll tell you why... Many of these refugees want nothing more than the extermination of the Jews. It is written in the Koran, Hadiths, and their charters. They simply do not want peace. These extremists want to destroy the Jews. Wake up.

Murray wrote:You must remember these people live their entire lives in refugee tent camps, i do not believe that accepting that is the christian thing to do.

What should really happen is Iran (since they love Palestine so much) should stop spending billions on propaganda against Israel and start helping refugees migrate to other Muslim countries if they hate living in Israel so much.

But in order to keep peace in the meantime, talks must continue

These camps could be easily absorbed into Jordan, but they refuse and use them as pawns for UN money instead. The boundaries were set for Israel way back in 1922. Actually Israel wants to absorb them into Israel but they don't want that. They despise democracy and only wanted to be ruled under the evils of Sharia Law where women and voting rights are destroyed. That is why they don't want to recognize the Jewish state. They want their own country.. The problem with that however is that these extremists want to destroy Israel. The peaceful loving Arabs simply cannot control these thugs.. That is why this is such a struggle. These peaceful loving Arabs are outnumbered greatly.

It does appear that you have set up what many consider a rather complex and delicate issue into a goodies vs. baddies affair.

No.. You don't understand. The Israelis want them to become part of Israel. All of them.. But they don't because of their religious practices.

I think he does understand, I imagine you would be rather miffed if you had to live under Sharia law or leave the US. The Muslims want you to become part of Islam, but you won't because of your religion. Who decides who's right? Allah or Jesus?

August wrote:Maybe we need a new thread for that...needless to say, I strongly disagree.

August wrote:Like I said, not looking good for Israel from a strategic perspective, probably the worst since '68.

I don't understand what you are saying August... Since the UN, Iran, and the rest of the nations are against Israel we should abandon them??

Proinsias wrote: I think he does understand, I imagine you would be rather miffed if you had to live under Sharia law or leave the US. The Muslims want you to become part of Islam, but you won't because of your religion. Who decides who's right? Allah or Jesus?

Not sure where you are going with this Pro... Please clarify..

Gman wrote:

August wrote:Maybe we need a new thread for that...needless to say, I strongly disagree.

August wrote:Like I said, not looking good for Israel from a strategic perspective, probably the worst since '68.

I don't understand what you are saying August... Since the UN, Iran, and the rest of the nations are against Israel we should abandon them??

Oh no, not at all. I am more worried about your specific statement in a theological context, which I understand comes from a dispensational hermeneutic. I though I have heard most of the dispensational exegesis, but nothing to justify your statement, so I am curious to see and discuss it.

However, I do believe that many in Israel will be saved by grace, as God promised, and they have my full support. I am very concerned for them under the current circumstances.

Rakovsky wrote:The Israeli-Palestine conflict, and the resulting problems like occupation and terrorism, is perhaps one of the most difficult ones of this century. And yet I think that even in this darkness there may still be some hope to have the positive and uplifting desire for reconciliation.

It's easy to understand.. One group seeks to destroy the other seeks to help...

In the process I got married, which of course they didn’t come to our wedding. But then you know grandkids came, our children were born, and then my parents kind of went through the process realizing that they really wanted to have a relationship with their grandchildren. So we have a relationship with my parents now. [But] they are very opposed to what I do now as the leader of Jews for Jesus in Israel. They don’t support it and they are not really understanding or aware of everything that I do. But when it comes to sitting or conversing with Arabs or Palestinians, unfortunately, they don’t appreciate it or like it. But it all comes from, again, a misunderstanding and not believing in Jesus. Really, their hostility towards me is because of my faith in the Lord, in Jesus.

Resorting to guilt trips Rakovsky? Trying to demonize Jews by your wacky articles?? Shame on you...

August wrote: Oh no, not at all. I am more worried about your specific statement in a theological context, which I understand comes from a dispensational hermeneutic. I though I have heard most of the dispensational exegesis, but nothing to justify your statement, so I am curious to see and discuss it.

Ok... In a nutshell, the Jews are not saved.. They have been blinded. However, God is in the process of setting them up for conversion.. God is gathering them specifically to Israel for this reason. The OT land covenants are all still in play today which is why we must honor that system. The Jews are God's first love under the patriarchs... God has locked a covenant with them that he will NOT break and is still married to them. God cannot go back on His word... He never will.

Where have the Christians been blinded? By not supporting the Jews in their quest to find the true messiah.

After the Jews are gathered, it is up to them to call back Christ. Unfortunately I believe the gentiles don't have the power to call back Christ. Not that God doesn't honor that, but that His people must submit to Christ (Yeshua) their TRUE savoir and messiah. It just might happen when their back is against the wall, ultimately however it will take a lot of love. Possibly at the Christian's sacrifice which is our duty to serve Him. And to serve without weapons of war.

That's the plot...

August wrote:However, I do believe that many in Israel will be saved by grace, as God promised, and they have my full support. I am very concerned for them under the current circumstances.

Yes.. It certainly is not looking good for them. The belief here is that all the nations will gather against Israel in the end. The opposing nations will get their wish to destroy her.. It will literally bring the world to a grinding halt...

Until that time we wait.. We try our best to support them but ultimately we wait for them to call in messiah who is Christ.

I don't know how to get them to recognize this.. The rift between Jew and Christian is SO great. The last thing we do however is demonize them. That crap has GOT to stop...

Dear Gman,

I sympathize with your words "There should be no two state solution...", but don't completely agree.
My model would be countries with more than one ethnicity, like America, Canada, Switzerland, or Russia which are dedicated to all the ethnicities and religions whose homes they are.
So I believe the ideal situation would be if both the Israelis and Palestinians lived in one state, since they share the same homeland. It should be for all the native ethnicities and religions in it, with equal rights for everyone.

However, it is hard to make this into an absolute. Since there has been so much fighting, perhaps it would be easier if they had two separate states for some time before they could reunite. Plus, the creation of two states was the original decision of the International Tribunal, the United Nations, so I think we should give a certain measure of acceptance to this concept, even if we would advocate for a better (one state) result.

I am confused by your words:

Gman wrote: Either you are with Israel or you are not. There are no negotiations...
Choose your side or be left out in the dark.

Naturally, as Christians, we must love everyone, including Israelis and Palestinians, and even our enemies. This love is not supposed to be negotiable. I wish the Israeli State and Palestinians well, and hope for their peace, safety, and well-being. My government has allied with them, but I am not an Israeli citizen.

Your words remind me of Jesus' words that you must either be for Him or against Him, and he rued that some were "lukewarm". Here Jesus was talking in a spiritual sense about us as a religious community. And if we define Israel as a national community, I am not sure we can use this phrase ("with them or against them") in the same way, since a good portion of the nation isn't with Jesus.

For St Paul, this was a cause of sorrow, as he said "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh". (Romans 9:3).
St Paul believed that those separated from Jesus weren't together, like branches separated from a common tree. However, at the same time he warned us against looking down on them, since we ourselves could lose faith and be cut off. Plus, Paul gave his hope that all of them would come to the true faith.
So we can't talk about the dilemma of being "with" the State of Israel or "against" it in the same way the phrase is used in the New Testament.

That is why I cannot agree with your statement "We Christians must submit to Jewish Zionism."
If Zionism is simply the return of the people to their homeland, there is nothing really to "submit" to. It is just a pleasant migration of people, a "coming-home."

If Zionism is defined as a national political movement, then Christianity isn't subordinate to it. For example, I have some sympathy for the Zealots' nationalist movement for independence from the Romans. If separated from the issue of the Palestinians, the Zealots were in many ways the predecessors of the modern Zionist movement. Yet Jesus' followers did not submit themselves to the Zealots or the military revolts. Instead, their way was to seek peace with the Romans. And while the Romans expected him to be a Messianic rebel leader, Jesus said that his kingdom was not of this world.

Now you could point out that Christians "submitted" to the Roman Empire in the sense of accepting it as their political authority. But that does not mean they supported or favored the Roman political or religious system. Likewise, we may "submit" to the US government in the sense of accepting its authority, but I don't think we should submit our faith to our own secular government.

So just as Christianity did not submit itself to the nationalist movement of the Zealots, I don't think Christians should subordinate their religious or poltiical beliefs to the earthly Israeli political system.

Your words here are basically in agreement with St Paul:

Ok... In a nutshell, the Jews are not saved.. They have been blinded. However, God is in the process of setting them up for conversion..

Except that I don't want to be judgmental and say for sure Christian Jews are "not saved" and going to hell. I don't want to imagine that I know for sure how God will judge each person, especially because He is all forgiving.
Christ has died to save the whole world, so it seems perhaps everyone has been saved, but not everyone has taken this gift.

Similarly, I am not sure that "God is gathering them specifically to Israel for this reason (ie. setting them up for conversion)"
First, the rule from the Torah seemed to be that if the people rejected God, He would gove them a hard time until they accepted Him, and then God would protect and bless them. Returning to the land would naturally be a blessing.
Second, the traditional concept in Rabbinical Judaism was that it would be the Messiah who would gather up the people. This is like a shepherd gathering sheep.
And this Rabbinical view at least sounds right to me, based on passages like Isaiah 11:12

• "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth."

You noted: "The Jews are God's first love under the patriarchs..."
But don't you think God's human creation, Adam, would be God's "first love"? Or what about Noah and Abraham? The Jewish people I don't think were separate until Judah was born. It just seems like there were persons or groups who God loved prior in time to their being a separate group.

I find the following confusing:

The OT land covenants are all still in play today which is why we must honor that system... God has locked a covenant with them that he will NOT break and is still married to them. God cannot go back on His word... He never will.

If the land covenant between the people and the physical land is still in force, this must mean that the Old Testament is still in force.
If so, what about Jews who become Christian? Must they still follow the Old Testament commandments, like the strict things in Leviticus?
And what about St Paul's idea about the whole Church being Israel?
If the whole Church, including uncircumcized persons, is Israel, wouldn't the promises to Israel about its land open up to all the Christians?
And as far as the covenant being locked, what about Zechariah 11, where it says the Shepherd broke the staff called Covenant? I am not saying you are wrong this though, because St Paul himself said that the promises remain despite the people's rejection.

Why would a promise about the people simply returning to their land require a partly-religious nonChristian government?
And finally, would the promises be for everyone descended from the ancient Israelites, or only those who belong to the religious community?

The idea the Old Testament Land Covenants are still in force and concern limited physical land for a limited nationality seems to raise alot of issues from a Christian point of view.