Evidence for God from Science

jlay wrote: In one sense we are, but not in the sense that I understand you are implying.

Ok and what am I implying J?

jlay wrote:G, I know you are very interested in Israel, and the events going on today. However, there is NOW only one mediator, and that is Christ. Everything under Israel's covenant symbolizes the distance between God and man. Through Christ, the veil was torn, and even us Gentiles have direct access.

Yes... We've talked about this before. And we have learned that God is still perusing the Jews as talked about in Romans 11. God is still locked in a land contract with them..

jlay wrote:I wouldn't argue that learning about those traditions will grow our minds to better understand what is happening today. And to help us understand the Messiah, and God's plans, and how these things were fulfilled. But I do not agree that practising them will bring one closer to God.

I would say it depends on the individual.. We are to be set apart from the others.

Ok and what am I implying J?

You imply (and I am also taking from your many recent posts regarding Israel) that there is some benefit to gentiles for practising Jewish traditions.

And we have learned that God is still perusing the Jews as talked about in Romans 11. God is still locked in a land contract with them..

God has fulfilled His promises. He sent the Messiah. They rejected. Through their rejection God has implemented a new program through the Gentiles. Yes, I believe God will work through Israel in the millenial reign at a future time. But this is NOT in affect today. A jew can come to salvation just like anyone else. Nothing special. No difference. In this dispensation He is not pursuing a Jew anymore than any person. Rom. 10:12

I would say it depends on the individual.. We are to be set apart from the others.

You would say? What is your scriptural defense?
As the body of Christ, we ARE set apart when we believe, not when we participate in rituals. First, you can't return to the Old Covenant, because you were and are not a Jew. And you shouldn't attempt to claim blessings or promises that were never given to you.

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:5-6
How was the remnant preserved? According to the election of grace.

Do I believe God has a future plan for Israel? Yes. Do I think Gentiles following Jewish traditions has anything to do with it? Absolutely not. Apart from the Lord's Supper, I do not see any scriptural support for a Gentile believer doing so.

jlay wrote: You imply (and I am also taking from your many recent posts regarding Israel) that there is some benefit to gentiles for practising Jewish traditions.

Ok.. And what do you mean by Jewish traditions and where exactly in the Bible have they been abrogated? Was not Jesus and the apostles Jewish?

jlay wrote:God has fulfilled His promises. He sent the Messiah. They rejected. Through their rejection God has implemented a new program through the Gentiles. Yes, I believe God will work through Israel in the millenial reign at a future time. But this is NOT in affect today. A jew can come to salvation just like anyone else. Nothing special. No difference. In this dispensation He is not pursuing a Jew anymore than any person. Rom. 10:12

As far as respecting persons let me also remind you of Romans 2:11. We have been over this before that the Jew are still under the land covenant/contract given by God Himself. Now there is really nothing that puts Jews over the gentiles especially if we are talking about salvation, but when we are talking about the title to the land of Israel that is still in effect today. Zionism belongs to the Jew. Period.

jlay wrote:You would say? What is your scriptural defense?
As the body of Christ, we ARE set apart when we believe, not when we participate in rituals. First, you can't return to the Old Covenant, because you were and are not a Jew. And you shouldn't attempt to claim blessings or promises that were never given to you.

Not sure what you are talking about here.. How are the blessings between the Jew and Gentile different?

jlay wrote:"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Rom 11:5-6
How was the remnant preserved? According to the election of grace.

By faith... We have been over this before. The same way as the OT... Now, however that has been changed through the works of Jesus Christ. Sacrifice of animals are no longer required.

Look at the grace upon Noah - Genesis 6:8 or in the OT Habakkuk 2:4.

And what about these OT believers? Works?

By faith Abel...(Hebrews 11:4)
By faith Enoch...(Hebrews 11:5)
By faith Noah..(Hebrews 11:6)
By faith Abraham...(Hebrews 11:8)
By faith Sarah...(Hebrews 11:11)
By faith Isaac...(Hebrews 11:20)
By faith Jacob...(Hebrews 11:21)
By faith Joseph...(Hebrews 11:22)
By faith Moses...(Hebrews 11:23-24, Hebrews 11:24)
By faith Rahab...(Hebrews 11:31)

jlay wrote:Do I believe God has a future plan for Israel? Yes. Do I think Gentiles following Jewish traditions has anything to do with it? Absolutely not. Apart from the Lord's Supper, I do not see any scriptural support for a Gentile believer doing so.

Again what do you mean by Jewish traditions? Where in the NT does it say that the traditions such as the celebration of Passover or Sukkot been done away with in the NT? Where?

Hey Gman,

to your original post.

I think it has much to do with the spread of Christianity in other than the Jewish lands and when later the Catholic Church took over they just started their own rituals. I think all of our earliest customs were shaped by them.

Salvation is free for all, but I do think that God is perusing the Jews as stated in Rom 11.

The new plan was the Gentile church but it was rooted in the Jewish branches. Tree can not stand without the stem. We are the substitutes not the originals, God's promise to Abraham was that through him and his seed all the nations will be blessed. So in that respect Jews are special. When Moses went to pharoah he refferred to God as God of the Hebrews. Paul in the N.T says that he is God of all but makes a special note for Jews Rom 11:28-32 says

As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

So we are not talking about salvation here, because that is the same for the Jew or Gentile but God does seem to have a special way with the Jews. As to whether it is in affect right now or not, I'm not sure how anyone could debate that precisely or conclusively. God will certainly re-instate them. God's covenant with Abraham would still stand, Jews would be a special case as the above verse says, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. w Whatever anyone may deduce from Christ's atonement and the abolishing of the ceremonial law, it certainly never says that God doesn't hold the Jews special, in fact it is quite the contrary.

Romans 11

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

and this part is particularly interesting for it shows that we all hang on the originals

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Says pretty much that before God there is equality when it comes to salvation but the fact that salvation came through the Jews makes them stand out.

But to your question would so much significance should merit that Jewish customs would be celebrated, I do not think so. For example, Passover meant something to Jews, it had a special place in their history and theology. But it does not mean anything to me except for the fact that God did some thing for the Jews. It has no cultural or historical context particularly for me. and while I agree that celebrating the Passover would not be an offense to God- it will be harmless- it would mean nothing to me but a celebration in a religious context. However to a Jew it may mean more than a celebration and I think honestly he will be the only one to actually feel that kind of reverence for it rather than me, a gentile.

neo-x wrote: Says pretty much that before God there is equality when it comes to salvation but the fact that salvation came through the Jews makes them stand out.

Some excellent points there neo... I agree.

neo-x wrote: But to your question would so much significance should merit that Jewish customs would be celebrated, I do not think so. For example, Passover meant something to Jews, it had a special place in their history and theology. But it does not mean anything to me except for the fact that God did some thing for the Jews. It has no cultural or historical context particularly for me. and while I agree that celebrating the Passover would not be an offense to God- it will be harmless- it would mean nothing to me but a celebration in a religious context. However to a Jew it may mean more than a celebration and I think honestly he will be the only one to actually feel that kind of reverence for it rather than me, a gentile.

Yes.. This is where I find a major rift between Judaism and Christianity. I think the problem here is that many don't realize that Christ was actually our passover lamb and was killed exactly the same time the priests were killing their passover lamb. Therefore not only is passover the celebration of the great many things God did for the Jews in the Exodus from Egypt, but it was also same time of the year that Christ became the passover lamb for us and therefore God passes over our sins too.

Therefore it should be celebrated by the Christians as well... It is actually the celebration of our Lord's mighty works!! First at the Exodus, then at Christ's death.

Why is it not celebrated today? FEAR.. Fear of thinking it is strictly a Jewish celebration.

Yes.. This is where I find a major rift between Judaism and Christianity. I think the problem here is that many don't realize that Christ was actually our passover lamb and was killed exactly the same time the priests were killing their passover lamb. Therefore not only is passover the celebration of the great many things God did for the Jews in the Exodus from Egypt, but it was also same time of the year that Christ became the passover lamb for us and therefore God passes over our sins too.

Therefore it should be celebrated by the Christians as well... It is actually the celebration of our Lord's mighty works!! First at the Exodus, then at Christ's death.

You bring an excellent point, and of course I would agree with it. I think the primary difference is not on what the Passover is based on but how it is carried out. i think it may not be fear but lack of necessity , since christian assert and maintain that you don't have to practically do anything and implicitly tie everything in salvation/grace vs law debate. However if one is not asked to celebrate in that particular scenario than of course he will not have any problem. I do not see any.