(((Christians and Atheists)))

[Murray]

Respond to the two bible verses and give reason for god writing them and I will respond.

You ignore the bible, the bible clearly states disbelief as defience and rebellion against god.

[Murray]

Psalm 14:1 says it all,by raising and teaching your child to be an athiest, because they trust you and follow you , you are leading them astray and to be ...(refer to psalm 14:1)

John 17:17

Again breaking this law by lying and misguiding your children.


And where do you get the idea only 30% of people believe in god? Any religon that teaches you to serve and love your god, 90% of people now, is obeying gods law.

And I also see you ignore the bible in saying "turning others against god is A OK".




(notice how I Did not personally attack or insult you as you did me, bur rather I presented my case in objection to yours)

[neo-x]

That isn't a fair assessment. There are plenty of happy atheists. And there are plenty of sad Christians.

I cleared that up a few posts down, Jilay,

I wrote

Well you have not seen the atheists I was talking about. Some are sad, some are angry. Some are normal. I have a few atheists in my family and being an ex-atheist my self. i know how that feels.

[MarcusOfLycia]

Hi all.. Just signed up today.. How is everyone?

I just want to get this out there first and foremost: I am an atheist... I don't believe in bashing people for their own beliefs tho. With that said...

@MarkColoradoUSA
I'm an atheist, and very much alive!

@neo-x
I'm an atheist and I can't remember the last time I was sad, and as far as anger goes... That's an emotion I try to live without.

@Murray
I grew up a Christian. I was a Christian for nearly 25 years. Then, I took a step back and started looking at the world (societies/religions etc) as a whole. That's when I came to the conclusion that for the most part, religions were created to explain the (then) unexplainable, and to also give reason to existence.

Like I said before, I'm not here to bash people for their beliefs..

IF (and that's a big IF) I ever have children. I will not 'force' my non-beliefs on them. They, like myself, will have the free will to choose their own beliefs.

If atheism is true, death is all there is to look forward. Timeless, eternal, silent death with no ability to impact it or influence it. What I consider to be far more cruel than hell. People can be atheists and happy. People can be Christians and miserable. But I can tell you this much: When contemplating the future, beyond our lifetimes, one worldview brings infinite joy and the other infinite depression.

That's interesting that you shifted faith when you looked at the world as a whole. I've heard that happening to people, but to be honest I don't quite understand it. I think it may have to do with the shock of 'there's too many belief systems, I can't possibly have gotten lucky with the right one'. Its not logical, but it does make sense why people would buy it. Personally, when I started to encounter other belief systems, it drove me crazy enough to investigate Christianity and other beliefs once and for all. I remain a Christian, though I now know why. That's the only real difference.

You mention that 'religions were created to explain the (then) unexplainable, and to also give reason for existence'. The problem is, religion is still the only thing that answers questions like the origin of the universe, morality, and meaning. To take it a step further, without some sort of religious belief, any human emotion becomes meaningless. Love suffers the most: It is for all intents and purposes destroyed and replaced with concepts like 'survival'. Its a desolate world that is created when there is no room for anything but pure, unadulterated reason; where people don't question their own minds but question without hesitancy any idea that might be considered absolute flowing outside of themselves. Christianity still makes the most sense, I think. Science explains some things as well, but not only can they coexist; I believe Christianity explains some things, particularly those things that make up the deepest regions of the human soul, with such accuracy and such poignancy, that I can't help but think Christianity is the obvious choice for an explanation.

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

Actually... my husband was abused by people who called themselves Catholic and Mormon... and my mother who was Catholic abandoned me.

People do cruel things. However, you won't find any support for this in the bible. If a republican or democrat does something illegal, it is not a truth claim about the values of the republican or democratic platform.

Not to dismiss the abuses your relative faced. They are cruel and wrong. But they are temporary. If atheism is true, he will die and become worm food. When you die, you will be worm food, along with the rest of humanity. He won't be, and you won't be. Therefore his sufferings are meaningless. The only meaning they had was in the context of your own consciousness which was nothing but a blip of time on a spec of dust in a universe that has no more reason for existing than for not existing.

Atheists are sad, angry people for reasons which are misguided.

That isn't a fair assessment. There are plenty of happy atheists. And there are plenty of sad Christians.

"I would rather have a full belief in science than a half belief in God"- My husband. And... "I would rather be truthful about what I believe, then be condemned later for not only not believing in God but for lying about my belief on top of that."

Oh an Atheism doesn't mean they don't believe in a spirit world of some sort. They just don't believe in a Deity. My husband totally believes in Ghosts and Aliens. And he believes in hybrid theory. There is a lot of cooky things he believes! Just... God isn't one of them.

And thank you greatly for your kind words. I know not all Christians are that way. Many are very nice. Very good. But in Idaho- they are pretty cruel to effeminent men.

[MarcusOfLycia]

"I would rather have a full belief in science than a half belief in God"- My husband. And... "I would rather be truthful about what I believe, then be condemned later for not only not believing in God but for lying about my belief on top of that."

Oh an Atheism doesn't mean they don't believe in a spirit world of some sort. They just don't believe in a Deity. My husband totally believes in Ghosts and Aliens. And he believes in hybrid theory. There is a lot of cooky things he believes! Just... God isn't one of them.

And thank you greatly for your kind words. I know not all Christians are that way. Many are very nice. Very good. But in Idaho- they are pretty cruel to effeminent men.

No one should ever be forced to believe something against their conscience; I hope that's something we can all agree on. Its been a Christian principle for a long time, so I hope most Christians can affirm it. That being said, it is definitely reasonable to debate and attempt to persuade people. I find most of the cruelty at this point to be neo-atheists against religious people of any background. Other than a handful, most I know in person are some of the meanest, nastiest people to be around, and agnostics and non-vocal Christians I know distance themselves from them, even if there were once robust friendships. Its a very destructive personality shift, and a little terrifying that they don't see how much damage they are doing.

To what else you said: "Belief in science" is a telling description. There truly is an element of belief when one accepts naturalism (which I assume is what is ultimately meant by the statement), because if Christians could ever be blamed for using "The God of the Gaps", then naturalists are by far more guilty, since they lack the affirmation of one key piece of evidence Christians have: revelation. Belief is just an essential part of any worldview.

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

"I would rather have a full belief in science than a half belief in God"- My husband. And... "I would rather be truthful about what I believe, then be condemned later for not only not believing in God but for lying about my belief on top of that."

Oh an Atheism doesn't mean they don't believe in a spirit world of some sort. They just don't believe in a Deity. My husband totally believes in Ghosts and Aliens. And he believes in hybrid theory. There is a lot of cooky things he believes! Just... God isn't one of them.

And thank you greatly for your kind words. I know not all Christians are that way. Many are very nice. Very good. But in Idaho- they are pretty cruel to effeminent men.

No one should ever be forced to believe something against their conscience; I hope that's something we can all agree on. Its been a Christian principle for a long time, so I hope most Christians can affirm it. That being said, it is definitely reasonable to debate and attempt to persuade people. I find most of the cruelty at this point to be neo-atheists against religious people of any background. Other than a handful, most I know in person are some of the meanest, nastiest people to be around, and agnostics and non-vocal Christians I know distance themselves from them, even if there were once robust friendships. Its a very destructive personality shift, and a little terrifying that they don't see how much damage they are doing.

To what else you said: "Belief in science" is a telling description. There truly is an element of belief when one accepts naturalism (which I assume is what is ultimately meant by the statement), because if Christians could ever be blamed for using "The God of the Gaps", then naturalists are by far more guilty, since they lack the affirmation of one key piece of evidence Christians have: revelation. Belief is just an essential part of any worldview.

Ug. I disagree with making people believe anything! And people die...because people kill and people just... can't get along for whatever reason... And I find this all to be sad.

We could point the finger all day at religions causing death... but in the end it is self righteous people thinking they have the right to judge. I even admit that
sometimes to make a Christian see it isn't just one religion doing wrong- I give examples- but I feel I am being disingenuous to my own beliefs that it is just people doing these things... not the religion itself.

I find it really sad that you don't know a nice Atheist and Agnostic to change your mind or soften your view of them... but here there is a rather large community of them around here in the least religious state in the USA. And I don't think I have met one that is nasty... I hope I never do. Many that I have met are quite socially inept... most of them are rather introverted... so it is a given.

The ones I know are very kind but at the same time can be offensive when talking frankly amongst themselves. It is cool to be able to see how Atheists talk to each other. Growing up, I knew how Christians were- but seeing Atheists... to know enough of them- they talk about time travel, zombies, and human rights mostly. What do they do together? volunteer, play video games, tell jokes, talk, and study. In other words... they are people.

Most of the people I talk to have horror stories about their Christian upbringing....

But personally the only person I have met that was openly mean to me on a religious base was Mormon- but I know they aren't all like that either. So... ah. Can't judge a group based on a small group at all.

Ah I am rambling!

I think I enjoyed what you had to say a bit too much. It makes me take comfort in your other postings (because you have said other things about Atheists that I did not agree with I now feel like I understand you a bit more as a poster).

[neo-x]

Ug. I disagree with making people believe anything! And people die...because people kill and people just... can't get along for whatever reason... And I find this all to be sad.

We could point the finger all day at religions causing death... but in the end it is self righteous people thinking they have the right to judge. I even admit that
sometimes to make a Christian see it isn't just one religion doing wrong- I give examples- but I feel I am being disingenuous to my own beliefs that it is just people doing these things... not the religion itself.

I find it really sad that you don't know a nice Atheist and Agnostic to change your mind or soften your view of them... but here there is a rather large community of them around here in the least religious state in the USA. And I don't think I have met one that is nasty... I hope I never do. Many that I have met are quite socially inept... most of them are rather introverted... so it is a given.

The ones I know are very kind but at the same time can be offensive when talking frankly amongst themselves. It is cool to be able to see how Atheists talk to each other. Growing up, I knew how Christians were- but seeing Atheists... to know enough of them- they talk about time travel, zombies, and human rights mostly. What do they do together? volunteer, play video games, tell jokes, talk, and study. In other words... they are people.

Most of the people I talk to have horror stories about their Christian upbringing....

But personally the only person I have met that was openly mean to me on a religious base was Mormon- but I know they aren't all like that either. So... ah. Can't judge a group based on a small group at all.

Ah I am rambling!

You can't judge any system with people, it has to be on the rules of the system and not on the behavior of the people. Sadly most people judge religion on face value, any religion, on the behavior and lifestyle of its followers and that is where your analysis get screwed up. Horror stories about christian upbringings??? you should listen to horror stories that Christians face in countries like, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, chine, Burma, India. You are Buddhist, you would know of how your own people were persecuted. The point is, extreme in any system causes problems for other people who live in that system but do not belong to it.

Lucky for us we are not living in medieval times, so if you are a christian, an atheist, a Buddhist, you can live with your rights in countries where there is a fair law and justice system. But remember, Hard Atheism claims that the presence of religion is illegal and illogical therefore it should not be tolerated at any costs.
This logically results in extreme atheism and vice versa, producing states like former U.S.S.R and modern China.

The question is what does the system demands. If lets say a country embraces religion as it official belief, say Christianity then I can assure you there would no executions or beheading of atheists. On the other hand if a country embraces atheism as its official belief, let me assert atheism, not secularism. Then it will start with banishing all religions, just like we have seen up till now. I am not accusing atheists, rather the system. The flaw is present there. There are tons of horror stories how religions were persecuted and oppressed in atheist countries. So while atheists are nice people, in general, what about their government. I am sure when the U.S.S.R executed millions and killed people in the name of atheism, there must be good atheists around as well, but what did they do? or to put it appropriately, what could they do? Religion is mocked among atheists in general, and they see it as a cruel practice to even teach your children about God. So what do you expect? To them the rightful thing is to banish all religions, which again to them is an illogical thought, to believe in an invisible friend. So please get realistic, I know it is a sad thing that people kill each other, shouldn't happen - but it does happen. And believe me we all feel bad about it, it is not just you alone.

[Jonouchi Katsuya]

Ug. I disagree with making people believe anything! And people die...because people kill and people just... can't get along for whatever reason... And I find this all to be sad.

We could point the finger all day at religions causing death... but in the end it is self righteous people thinking they have the right to judge. I even admit that
sometimes to make a Christian see it isn't just one religion doing wrong- I give examples- but I feel I am being disingenuous to my own beliefs that it is just people doing these things... not the religion itself.

I find it really sad that you don't know a nice Atheist and Agnostic to change your mind or soften your view of them... but here there is a rather large community of them around here in the least religious state in the USA. And I don't think I have met one that is nasty... I hope I never do. Many that I have met are quite socially inept... most of them are rather introverted... so it is a given.

The ones I know are very kind but at the same time can be offensive when talking frankly amongst themselves. It is cool to be able to see how Atheists talk to each other. Growing up, I knew how Christians were- but seeing Atheists... to know enough of them- they talk about time travel, zombies, and human rights mostly. What do they do together? volunteer, play , tell jokes, talk, and study. In other words... they are people.

Most of the people I talk to have horror stories about their Christian upbringing....

But personally the only person I have met that was openly mean to me on a religious base was Mormon- but I know they aren't all like that either. So... ah. Can't judge a group based on a small group at all.

Ah I am rambling!

You can't judge any system with people, it has to be on the rules of the system and not on the behavior of the people. Sadly most people judge religion on face value, any religion, on the behavior and lifestyle of its followers and that is where your analysis get screwed up. Horror stories about christian upbringings??? you should listen to horror stories that Christians face in countries like, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, chine, Burma, India. You are Buddhist, you would know of how your own people were persecuted. The point is, extreme in any system causes problems for other people who live in that system but do not belong to it.

Lucky for us we are not living in medieval times, so if you are a christian, an atheist, a Buddhist, you can live with your rights in countries where there is a fair law and justice system. But remember, Hard Atheism claims that the presence of religion is illegal and illogical therefore it should not be tolerated at any costs.
This logically results in extreme atheism and vice versa, producing states like former U.S.S.R and modern China.

The question is what does the system demands. If lets say a country embraces religion as it official belief, say Christianity then I can assure you there would no executions or beheading of atheists. On the other hand if a country embraces atheism as its official belief, let me assert atheism, not secularism. Then it will start with banishing all religions, just like we have seen up till now. I am not accusing atheists, rather the system. The flaw is present there. There are tons of horror stories how religions were persecuted and oppressed in atheist countries. So while atheists are nice people, in general, what about their government. I am sure when the U.S.S.R executed millions and killed people in the name of atheism, there must be good atheists around as well, but what did they do? or to put it appropriately, what could they do? Religion is mocked among atheists in general, and they see it as a cruel practice to even teach your children about God. So what do you expect? To them the rightful thing is to banish all religions, which again to them is an illogical thought, to believe in an invisible friend. So please get realistic, I know it is a sad thing that people kill each other, shouldn't happen - but it does happen. And believe me we all feel bad about it, it is not just you alone.

So you know that some Christian run nations are mass murdering Buddhists? But that isn't Christianity's fault.

And, I don't think you can judge China on the same standards as any other nation. Look how many people they are trying to control. In my opinion they should split into some smaller nations to make it easier... but power hungry people just want to keep all the power.

You sound like you are blaming Atheism for this- but I promise you it is people who think they are being righteous. They may not have a holy book or anything... but they definitely have a belief system of sorts... and just like any belief system it can be abused to justify the killing of other people... Which is wrong.

Would you like me to provide a list of nice Atheists who have done something good? I think I could come up with a list...

It might actually be good to see like infront of me as well all together. I just want everyone to get along one day... no need to kill others...

[neo-x]

You sound like you are blaming Atheism for this- but I promise you it is people who think they are being righteous. They may not have a holy book or anything... but they definitely have a belief system of sorts... and just like any belief system it can be abused to justify the killing of other people... Which is wrong.

Funny, I think a lot atheists would disagree with you, most atheists say they don't have a belief system at all. And I am blaming atheism for this not atheists. Because an atheist might see the injustice, the system won't. And that is typical argumentation. for example, if I said, that the pope who started took part in the first crusade was just, crazy, a lot of people might not agree, may be even you as well. but If I say that Stalin was an atheist who killed in the name of atheism, you'll say...oh he was just power hungry. That is quite unfair to claim, if you would, that is. (edit) Do you know that from 1917 to 1969, the atheist Soviets destroyed 41,000 of Russia’s 48,000 churches and you are claiming that it had nothing to do with atheism---

And any belief system can be abused, it never should. people who crave power do it all the time and it is wrong, I am sad for every atheist or christian or whoever else, who have to suffer at the hands of people who crave power. But assuming that religion is bad to start with is just idiotic. Any one who doesn't understand religion but tries to criticize it, is a fool.

[Murray]

Let's have a history lesson about the crusades.

The crusade was called on by the byzantine emporer Alexios I Komnenos, due to muslim barbarians pillaging, conquering and slaughtering all throughout the byzantine lands and were closing in on the byzantine capital of constantinopal. Muslims, once having conquered byzanine, could have and most defininatly would have began a conquest of eastern europe establishing strong muslim presence in the region. Now with eastern europe now islamic, the ottomans would have began a conquest of a disorganized and weak west europe and christianity would be an extint religon. Urban II saw this threat and in a ditch effort to unite the knights of europe under a cause, he chose the one thing that could unite them; their religon. Along with elliminating the muslim threat to the east, the pope also saw this as a chance to re-gain the biblical holy land, but this was not the main goal as im sure your knowledge on the topic has lead you to believe. Im sorry if historical facts don't play in to your distorted view of the first 2 crusades. And Tell me.. How many people died in the first 2 crusades? Im sure you will be surprised. (Hint: more people died in 1 day in world war I (started by and atheist) than in the entire 100 year span on the first 2 crusades) Think of that, a1 day in an atheist war killing more than 100 years of a christian war that atheist use to degrade christianity.


Let's look at some great and careing atheist
-Stalin
-Hitler
-Pol pot
-Castro
-Lenin
-Mao
-Gavrilo Princip

Now, it is a historical fact that atheism has killed far more than christianity, thus elliminating that entire argument, while christians have done awful things, they are not justified by the bible. The bible does not say to kill if you read it in context, however atheism has no right and wrong code so you can't say they were not justified by atheism.

[jlay]

Comparing body counts is not going to prove who is right and wrong. Atheism isn't untrue because atheist's committed atrocities. Christianity wouldn't be true if all those claiming to be Christians never committed what we view as atrocities.

As Neo covered, a belief system isn't determined by the acts of its adherents, but by the tenets of the system. What does the belief system teach? When Muslims attempt to conquer other nations and impose Sharia law, are they acting consistently with the tenets of their religion.

So you know that some Christian run nations are mass murdering Buddhists? But that isn't Christianity's fault.

Is it consistent with the teachings of Christianity or in conflict? Yes or no?

So, one should ask, does Atheism influence the actions of those like Stalin, Pol Pot, etc?
I'm not saying an atheist can't be moral. They can. But does atheism itself support such a position? If you say yes, then please be specific.

[B. W.]

Jonouchi Katsuya -

I would recommend seeing the movie Apocalypto. It does not matter if this is by Mel Gibson or what one thinks of him, the movie brutally points out the historical record that ancient cultures worldwide were brutal and for lack of a better word perversely devilish.

Even the Hindu religion with its support and justification for the Caste System is brutally unfair. All are guilty and none are righteous – no not one. Using the Crusades, or the acts of madmen/ mad women who stain Christ’s name through vile acts show how brutal the nicest people can be in justification for eliminating Christians from the face of the planet. Fact is, Atheism and Leftist ideology has indeed killed more people than all wars of religion combined. There is a thing called the human sin nature and it manifest itself in Hinduism by means of the abusive Caste System, in Buddhism in its seeking self effort to be righteous but cannot define come to terms with anything at all in hopes of achieving self salvation.

Christianity simply says, change your mind – you cannot save yourself or bring about any form of Utopia because our personal sin nature corrupts all leaving devastation in its wake. Only the Lord Jesus is capable of producing true lasting change and will do so. Change your mind about this – you are not god or gods and are incapable reaching a state of Utopia for those coming after will destroy what you made. Simply return to the Lord and be saved from yourself and what you made of life.
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[spartanII]

Atheists are sad, angry people for reasons which are misguided.

I believe at the heart of the issue, this is very true, they only have a pessimistic value of life. You call the world beautiful, they call it devastating and only beautiful because of what science and other men have done to make this world a better place (modern society). Yet once the conversation ends they know that they go back to their homes and try to love their family and hold onto the only life they have.

[SnowDrops]

The problem is not people doing immoral things. The problem is ideologies that say it's all "blunt, meaningless indifference". That's the thing: Atheists have absolutely no basis to say anything is right or wrong. So who cares what sort of mess people create?