Bible not from god?

[Murray]

I do not believe that the prophets that god spoke through would change his word one bit, honestly if god was speaking to you and told you to write something directly, would you disobey him and 1)loose favor with him, and 2) Take the chance of being punished for it.

The men that wrote the bible had 0% disbelief in god as god spoke to them and through them, I cannot imagine anybody brave to pervert his direct word.

[Mariolee]

I do not believe that the prophets that god spoke through would change his word one bit, honestly if god was speaking to you and told you to write something directly, would you disobey him and 1)loose favor with him, and 2) Take the chance of being punished for it.

The men that wrote the bible had 0% disbelief in god as god spoke to them and through them, I cannot imagine anybody brave to pervert his direct word.

...how could you possibly know for sure that God directly went up to them and told them to write word for word what to write, and then would punish them if they did not listen?

[DannyM]

Look, I think Jlay put it best:

The scripture proves it is divine in origin. A study of Daniels weeks prophecy demonstrates the divine inspiration of scripture.

No where is it claimed that God grabbed a heavenly quill and penned the words. It says, "but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Peter 1:21) And, All scripture is given by inspiration of God. (2 Tim. 3:16)

But this from Paul:

Scripture being of divine ORIGIN is something that must be take on faith, there is no evidence of that

is plainly false and if true then the bible must ultimately be meaningless. We have plenty of evidence that scripture is of divine origin. God’s words at the beginning of Genesis might be a hint. God’s self-revelation in Exodus 34. That scripture has a divine origin is as true and evident as Christ’s work on the cross.

[Murray]

To add on to what danny said, jesus also quoted the old testament many times, and jesus, being god, would not quote something that was of un-divine and faulty origin. God is perfect, and so is the old testament, that is why jesus quoted verses from it.

[Katabole]

The Bible does utter the phrase, "Thus says the Lord" over 400 times in the Old Testament.

The opening determiner of a sentence containing the words "God said" occurs 42 times in the Old Testament and 4 times in the New.

The words "God spoke" occurs 9 times in the Old Testament and 3 times in the New.

The phrase the "Spirit of the Lord" which spoke through people occurs 4 times in the Old Testament.

how could you possibly know for sure that God directly went up to them and told them to write word for word what to write,

It claims that a number of times in the Old Testament.

Exo 24:3 (KJV) And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Exo 24:3 (KJV) And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exo 24:7 (KJV) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Exo 24:12 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

If you notice in verse 12 the law and commandments were written by God, not Moses. Moses read them aloud in verse 3 and copied them in verse 4.

The same can also be said for Exo 34:1 and 34:7. In Deut 17:18, the king was also supposed to write out a copy of the law.

God (the Word of the Lord) tells Isaiah and Jeremiah and the minor prophet Habakkuk to write in Isa 8:1 and Jer 30:2 and 36:2 and Hab 2:2.

Granted, the Bible does not tell us everything for as John says in the last line of his Gospel:

John 21:25 (KJV) And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

[PaulSacramento]

We can't use the bible or what is written IN the bible as evidence FOR the bible.
According to that view, if the Koran States it is THE Book of God above all others, does that make it so?
No.
Passages WITHIN the bible stating that scripture is "divine" and "god breathed" can't be used to legitimize that the bible is such.
As for Jesus quoting from the OT, if that is the criteria then NOTHING of the NT is valid since Jesus didn't quote of it.
Of course the NT was written after Jesus, but the point is that we can't use that as criteria as well.
Did Jesus quote ALL of the OT? Nope, so does that mean that only what he quotes is valid or inspired?
Of course not.

Look, this isn't about "preaching to the converted" and perhaps I have debated with too many atheists, but you don't prove the bible being inspired because the bible says so.

[DannyM]

Paul

We can't use the bible or what is written IN the bible as evidence FOR the bible.
According to that view, if the Koran States it is THE Book of God above all others, does that make it so?

Sure we can.

As for Jesus quoting from the OT, if that is the criteria then NOTHING of the NT is valid since Jesus didn't quote of it

No he just spoke in it

Did Jesus quote ALL of the OT? Nope, so does that mean that only what he quotes is valid or inspired?

This just does not follow. Does Jesus have to quote every single OT passage for it to be verified? The fact that he gives such authority in the OT in the first place allows us to justly draw the conclusion that Jesus endorsed it.

Look, this isn't about "preaching to the converted" and perhaps I have debated with too many atheists, but you don't prove the bible being inspired because the bible says so

God is the origin of the Holy Bible. He is its foundation. All claims for absolute authority have the authority built in. Forget the ‘circular’ argument, since all worldview are circular. One who believes that science has absolute authority are reasoning circularly by presupposing what they are claiming. One who believes that human reason is the ultimate standard can argue for this claim only by appealing to reason. Only total scepticism manages to avoid this; but even these supposedly ardent sceptics end up in sheer hopelessness since, if they are being absolutely consistent, they must by necessity be sceptical of the very scepticism on which they insist! We are bound by circular reasoning here and it’s not just the Christian.

[PaulSacramento]

I can honestly tell you that you will not "convince" any skeptic or atheists that the bible is God's word and inspired because the BIBLE SAYS SO.
Any argument based from that point is already lost.
Sorry.

[Murray]

I can honestly tell you that you will not "convince" any skeptic or atheists that the bible is God's word and inspired because the BIBLE SAYS SO.
Any argument based from that point is already lost.
Sorry.

^This


But to add on, the bible can be proven to be accurate through extremly proven accuarate historical information, such as information on ancient cities and wars. Let me give you an example, During world war 1 a british luitenant after reading his bible, followed the exact same path that david used to flank the phillistines , thus winning the brittish the battle. Now, That is what I call spot on accuracy. ( I think it was david anyway, to lazy to look it up right now).

There are sooo many historical referances in the bible that have been proven factual, I believe that it self, should be taken into account when talking about biblical accuracy.

To date I have not seen one historian point out a major fault in any OT biblical story and that to me is solid proof a large amount not if all is factual.

And lets think critically, look at leviticus law. Before leviticus law homosexuality was not even questioned in many societys, And heck, im pretty sure they were shocked when they saw homosexuality listed on there. The thing is "bigots" per say, did not exist in ancient times as there was no moral to degrade homosexuality.

^ the same can be found in numerous other laws of the OT if looked into.

[PaulSacramento]

I can honestly tell you that you will not "convince" any skeptic or atheists that the bible is God's word and inspired because the BIBLE SAYS SO.
Any argument based from that point is already lost.
Sorry.

^This


But to add on, the bible can be proven to be accurate through extremly proven accuarate historical information, such as information on ancient cities and wars. Let me give you an example, During world war 1 a british luitenant after reading his bible, followed the exact same path that david used to flank the phillistines , thus winning the brittish the battle. Now, That is what I call spot on accuracy. ( I think it was david anyway, to lazy to look it up right now).

There are sooo many historical referances in the bible that have been proven factual, I believe that it self, should be taken into account when talking about biblical accuracy.

To date I have not seen one historian point out a major fault in any OT biblical story and that to me is solid proof a large amount not if all is factual.

And lets think critically, look at leviticus law. Before leviticus law homosexuality was not even questioned in many societys, And heck, im pretty sure they were shocked when they saw homosexuality listed on there. The thing is "bigots" per say, did not exist in ancient times as there was no moral to degrade homosexuality.

^ the same can be found in numerous other laws of the OT if looked into.

I agree with Murray and this is the way to go.
Take the bible for what it can be proven to be and work from there.
The bible must be taken for what it is, not what it isn't or what we may WANT it to be.
I have no doubts that much of the bible was written by man inspired by God, as I have no doubts that it was also written simply by scribes writing down was was happening and copied by scribes to the best of their ability.
The bible is an amazing book that even warns it's reader that certain things may have been added or removed or altered.
The warning in Revelations is there because the problem was real.
Jeremiah accused the scribes of altering the word of God ( Jeremiah 8:8).
Jesus himself had hard words for the scribes.

[DannyM]

I can honestly tell you that you will not "convince" any skeptic or atheists that the bible is God's word and inspired because the BIBLE SAYS SO.
Any argument based from that point is already lost.
Sorry.

So what? Do you think you’ll convince the atheist by any other means?

I used to think in terms of arguing from a neutral standpoint and provide evidences for God. But why? Do the stacks of evidences persuade the atheist? No. Can it? No. Should we have to curtail our beliefs in front of atheists? No.

[DannyM]

There are sooo many historical referances in the bible that have been proven factual, I believe that it self, should be taken into account when talking about biblical accuracy.

To date I have not seen one historian point out a major fault in any OT biblical story and that to me is solid proof a large amount not if all is factual

And still the Bible as a whole is written off by sceptics as some concocted hand-me-down full of fairy stories. The Bible could not be more historically solid. And yet what does this present for those who cannot see?

[Murray]

Some people will never believe, people saw jesus perform impossible miracles bu yet they still did not have faith, the isrealites were guarded protected and watched over by god yet they made a false idol to worship instead of him.

Heck, jesus could pop in front of richard dawkins wave his hands and scream "here I am" and richard would probably just convince himself he was seeing things.

Some people do not want to find/believe god; as this saying that I saw somewhere on this site goes "the atheist cannot find god for the same reason a theif cannot find a police man"

[Mariolee]

The Bible does utter the phrase, "Thus says the Lord" over 400 times in the Old Testament.

The opening determiner of a sentence containing the words "God said" occurs 42 times in the Old Testament and 4 times in the New.

The words "God spoke" occurs 9 times in the Old Testament and 3 times in the New.

The phrase the "Spirit of the Lord" which spoke through people occurs 4 times in the Old Testament.

how could you possibly know for sure that God directly went up to them and told them to write word for word what to write,

It claims that a number of times in the Old Testament.

Exo 24:3 (KJV) And Moses came and told the people all the words of the LORD, and all the judgments: and all the people answered with one voice, and said, All the words which the LORD hath said will we do.

Exo 24:3 (KJV) And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD, and rose up early in the morning, and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars, according to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Exo 24:7 (KJV) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

Exo 24:12 (KJV) And the LORD said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

If you notice in verse 12 the law and commandments were written by God, not Moses. Moses read them aloud in verse 3 and copied them in verse 4.

The same can also be said for Exo 34:1 and 34:7. In Deut 17:18, the king was also supposed to write out a copy of the law.

God (the Word of the Lord) tells Isaiah and Jeremiah and the minor prophet Habakkuk to write in Isa 8:1 and Jer 30:2 and 36:2 and Hab 2:2.

Granted, the Bible does not tell us everything for as John says in the last line of his Gospel:

John 21:25 (KJV) And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Ah, I stand corrected. But then if getting God's exaact words are so important, then why are there so many different version of the Bible? Is there a right or wrong version?

[PaulSacramento]

I can honestly tell you that you will not "convince" any skeptic or atheists that the bible is God's word and inspired because the BIBLE SAYS SO.
Any argument based from that point is already lost.
Sorry.

So what? Do you think you’ll convince the atheist by any other means?

I used to think in terms of arguing from a neutral standpoint and provide evidences for God. But why? Do the stacks of evidences persuade the atheist? No. Can it? No. Should we have to curtail our beliefs in front of atheists? No.

Actually, yes, I have and so have others.
Not militant atheists that have made up their mind ( trying to convince them is like trying to convert a fundamentalist muslim to atheisim, lol) but those that are "agnostic" atheists.