Evidence for God from Science

But... I think... I see right here. Here. Right here. I can not believe in perfection.

Just think about what you said for a bit.

God must love us just the way we are...And no need to change

What If I love to rape children must god accept me for loving that and ask that I not change, what if I kill and enjoy killing infants must god accept me and not ask me to change?

It's a very faulty logic

Murray wrote:Just think about what you said for a bit.

God must love us just the way we are...And no need to change

What If I love to rape children must god accept me for loving that and ask that I not change, what if I kill and enjoy killing infants must god accept me and not ask me to change?

It's a very faulty logic

It is a reflection on him. I never said he was perfect.

And child perverts don't change. And I mean Child not people who do this to teens because teens are biologically viable to have children so it makes sense to want to procreate with them because their genetic material is new... it is in our biology. We weren't supposed to live so long as we do to have time for such things as being a teen.

And God has killed infants... Women, children, it really didn't matter in OT. It is a reflection of him when someone does anything. Good or bad. The ultimate reflection are we. He even ordered women to be... well... yeah that happened in OT. (not that it really matters even though he is infinite and never changes yet somehow decided to change of NT-My only way to rationalize this is to say he is not perfect)

It's not faulty logic...

I would personally ask you to change if you so had the power over yourself to control yourself...

(and rape is a symptom of being really into control which God is. Which all of this is... OK)

I would personally ask you to change if you so had the power over yourself to control yourself...

God has given us the power to change and turn away from our sinful ways, this can clearly be seen throughout the NT.

Look in the world around you, in chrisitianity you will find ex murderers, porn stars, prostitutes, theifs, drug addicts, homosexuals, and all sorts of others changed by jesus to live a moral and decent life. This is not an opinion, it is a fact, people change when they accept jesus.\

I myself, druggy, lazy, cruel, rude, and lack of motivation. Then slowly over a period of 2 years I changed my self, I stopped smoking, I started going to church, I started reading the bible, I started doing community work, I started working out, I completly overhauled my moral and manner code, and I started to appriciate what I had in this life. You would not recognize me if you saw me on opposite ends of those 2 years.

It's almost a insult to say I have not changed, jesus does change people and the proof is in the pudding

Murray wrote:

I would personally ask you to change if you so had the power over yourself to control yourself...

God has given us the power to change and turn away from our sinful ways, this can clearly be seen throughout the NT.

Look in the world around you, in chrisitianity you will find ex murderers, porn stars, prostitutes, theifs, drug addicts, homosexuals, and all sorts of others changed by jesus to live a moral and decent life. This is not an opinion, it is a fact, people change when they accept jesus.\

I myself, druggy, lazy, cruel, rude, and lack of motivation. Then slowly over a period of 2 years I changed my self, I stopped smoking, I started going to church, I started reading the bible, I started doing community work, I started working out, I completly overhauled my moral and manner code, and I started to appriciate what I had in this life. You would not recognize me if you saw me on opposite ends of those 2 years.

It's almost a insult to say I have not changed, jesus does change people and the proof is in the pudding

The Crusades prove that this isn't necessarily true.
Cortez, Christopher Columbus, Puritans?

Some more recent examples?
KKK
Timothy Mcveigh
Scott Roeder...
Ngo Dinh Diem- President of South Vietnam who massacred 150,000 Buddhists...

I did community work the most during the time I still considered myself Atheist. Mostly to my local library, my local shelter. Never committed a crime. Never consumed alcohol in my life. Never smoked. Waited till I was married to have sex. I have only kissed one man, only dated one man. I continue to love that same man. I live with my father and I help him to raise his two sons because of divorce. I preform as many motherly duties as I can at my age, but I rightfully find it hard and I struggle at times to be something to these boys who need a motherly figure to look to as an example.

Currently I volunteer at a teen suicide prevention center. I find that my inner strength, meditation, looking at all options rather than the on that is right in front of me has prevented me from making too bad of decisions.

I think I have gone through a few periods of laziness particularly when I was in middle school and I felt no one really cared if I lived or died. But I started volunteering and it gave my life meaning as well as friends!

I also have surrounded myself with a good core of friends who all are interested in doing the same things, volunteering, helping others, feeding the hungry, assisting the old. I find this helps keep me on a realitively good path. The craziest thing of all is that... none of the people I go volunteering with (mostly a group of 20+ year old virgins) are Christian. One person is Jewish but the rest or atheist or agnostic (converts from Christianity to Atheism).

So to say just because someone is Christian it makes them good... or follow a path that is to be considered good for others that they are automatically a better person is false.

BUT! I feel that many Christians are good people even great people! and that Christianity can be good for some people! But obviously some people just take it too far.

I adore Christian culture. I find it interesting. I love the art. I see the influence just about everywhere I go just as I see Roman, Chinese, and much much more influnence the way we live today. But Christianity sticks out to me but probably because I live in the states where it is so present in my day to day life.

It is a reflection of him when someone does anything. Good or bad.

That is where I do not agree with your logic. We are not God's reflection per action, or else why have free will. God's perfection doesn't get completed through ours. It is a separate entity, a system entirely independent of human actions. How do you get the idea that what we do is a reflection of God?

The Crusades prove that this isn't necessarily true.
Cortez, Christopher Columbus, Puritans?

Some more recent examples?
KKK
Timothy Mcveigh
Scott Roeder...
Ngo Dinh Diem- President of South Vietnam who massacred 150,000 Buddhists...

This again is faulty logic, I wouldn't even call them true christians, I showed you in another post, you can't judge a system on behavior of people, you should do it on its code. There are tons of examples to counter this, and even Buddhists had wars. Does that mean they reflected Buddha or his teaching, since he is a man-god???

Crusades(first 2 killed) 40,000, all together including men women and children on both sides (also includingwomen and children slaughtered by the muslims on byzantine ground). That's 100 years of war with 40,000 deaths

World war I, sparked by and atheist, killed 50,000 in one day in the battle of the sonne

The examples of the cruzades, the inquisition, horrific deeds done by people professing to be Christians, are examples of NOT ENOUGH Christ.
They are NOT examples of Christ in a person's life, much less examples of "too much" Christ.
One of the central tenants of Christianity is love and pray for your enemies and those that persecute you.
We are most certainly to defend our lives and those of those we love, what we are NOT to do is to actively seek out violence, we are not to Hate and to be intolerant.
Without Love there is no Christ in Us.

The core cause of the crusades was not even religon, it was muslim barbians pillaging and slaughtering through the byzantine empire that caused the emporer to beg for help from the pope.

Murray wrote:The core cause of the crusades was not even religon, it was muslim barbians pillaging and slaughtering through the byzantine empire that caused the emporer to beg for help from the pope.

Something that is often neglected by some.

PaulSacramento wrote:

Murray wrote:The core cause of the crusades was not even religon, it was muslim barbians pillaging and slaughtering through the byzantine empire that caused the emporer to beg for help from the pope.

Something that is often neglected by some.

The atheist seem to neglect alot of things including the halucaust, the mass extermination of the christians in russia, the red purge in spain, the starting of world war I, Mao, Pol pot; they pretty much ignore all negatives of atheism instead of confronting them as christians do with things such as the crusades and such.

Hi Katsuya

I think.. this opinion is the fundamental root as to why I am not Christian nor can I ever be. If... a Christian here can tell me it is A-OK for this belief in their society

Not really sure what I said to offended you

I believe in God. I just don't believe him to be perfect or desirable to imitate

I completely agree that we reflect he who created us. A perfect image of likeness. Whether this is perfect is up to interpretation. There is a part of me.. that is willing to see the world as perfect the way it is. But there is always room for improvement with-in perfection says the artist

You believe in God? Do you think Buddha is God? Or is God other than Buddha?

Murray wrote:The core cause of the crusades was not even religon, it was muslim barbians pillaging and slaughtering through the byzantine empire that caused the emporer to beg for help from the pope.

Yep Yep!

It definitely began with the Byzantine backlash against Muslim aggression. The term ‘Crusades’ is so often a by-word for ‘Christian atrocities’ and it is, purely and simply, a gross oversimplification fuelled by, once again, anti-Christian bigotry

DannyM wrote:Hi Katsuya

I think.. this opinion is the fundamental root as to why I am not Christian nor can I ever be. If... a Christian here can tell me it is A-OK for this belief in their society

Not really sure what I said to offended you

I believe in God. I just don't believe him to be perfect or desirable to imitate

I completely agree that we reflect he who created us. A perfect image of likeness. Whether this is perfect is up to interpretation. There is a part of me.. that is willing to see the world as perfect the way it is. But there is always room for improvement with-in perfection says the artist

You believe in God? Do you think Buddha is God? Or is God other than Buddha?

Buddist do not believe buddah is god, More a man with extreme spiritual understanding. Some buddist are in fact atheist and only believe in a spirit, while others are deist and some worship gods similar to that of hinduism. Many different forms it can be practicied and I must say from what I have learned about it, it is very calm and peaceful religon based around spiritual understanding.