Evidence for God from Science

And John says the two are so mixed that one without the other is practically worthless. To be fair all across, the two are intimately tied, but faith brings Salvation, and faith also naturally leads to works. Doing works to try to become saved (apart from faith) is just as condemned as trying to have faith but avoiding doing any works.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:And John says the two are so mixed that one without the other is practically worthless. To be fair all across, the two are intimately tied, but faith brings Salvation, and faith also naturally leads to works. Doing works to try to become saved (apart from faith) is just as condemned as trying to have faith but avoiding doing any works.

In terms of one's salvation I totally disagree with you. In this life faith and works must be intimately tied, sure. But when you say this in the context of one’s salvation then it just begs the question of how much “works” are you talking about? Works aren’t tied, intimately or otherwise, to salvation, that once for all event. If they were then salvation is not a once for all event but rather an incoherent mess which none of us can ever be confident in grasping. Hence the wonderful simplicity of Christ’s atonement.

Sorry if I was unclear: I don't believe works justify a person or that works are required for Salvation. However, faith is, and faith is intimately tied with works. Works are not what saves us to be sure. I absolutely agree with you there.

I just felt like in this thread there was a point when works were considered irrelevant (I think in your first post, you mentioned they were frowned on). Perhaps they are frowned on when one thinks they bring them to Salvation. However, once Salvation has occurred, I believe works are the only logical, natural outpouring of one's self. "Faith without works is dead". I didn't say "Salvation is by works.".

It is an issue of INTENT it seems and I believe that is what Paul was focusing on.
The intent of works.
Do people do the works of love out of love or for recompense? for salvation?
Does one pray and worship God because they want to be saved or because they love God?
First comes love and the knowledge that, whatever we do, God can't love us anymore than he already does and that belief is justified by Christ and what he did for us All.
With the knowledge that what wil not EARN us God's love, since it is given freely, what we DO is done out of LOVE with no motive other than to express love.

MarcusOfLycia wrote:Sorry if I was unclear: I don't believe works justify a person or that works are required for Salvation. However, faith is, and faith is intimately tied with works. Works are not what saves us to be sure. I absolutely agree with you there.

I just felt like in this thread there was a point when works were considered irrelevant (I think in your first post, you mentioned they were frowned on). Perhaps they are frowned on when one thinks they bring them to Salvation. However, once Salvation has occurred, I believe works are the only logical, natural outpouring of one's self. "Faith without works is dead". I didn't say "Salvation is by works.".

I see. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you

My original point was entirely with regards to salvation since that was what the poster was asking about

But to be sure I always need to pull my finger out and do more to represent my faith

Only true faith will lead to true works.

I guess it is time for our quarterly debate on salvation.
It may be important to define some terms. I have found that two Christians can be speaking on a topic and not realize that have fundamentally different definitions of the terms.

Works? What do we mean, and what does the Bible mean when it refers to works? What is a work? Is it following the OT? An act of kindness? Let's be specific here. And what if a believer is doing works out of the flesh? Do they count?
James says faith without works is dead. OK. So, does a dead faith mean eternal condemnation in Hell? If so, provide scriptural support. Also, who is the audience of James, and what message is James communicating in the entire context of this teaching?

Also repentance. Probably the most misunderstood word in the Christian terminology. Probably the best paper I have read on the subject is here. I would strongly encourage everyone to read this in its entireity. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf
My experience is that the word has been redefined to mean, "turn from sin, have guilt for sin, or forsaking of sin." This simply isn't consistent with how the word metaneo was defined and used in the NT. It has to do with the mind, and belief. To give up one way of thinking and to embrace a new way. That is to change one's mind.

DannyM wrote:Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins.
It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

Dan, I don't think this is a correct definition. I do however, think that to trust in Christ one does have to recognize that they are a sinner. If a person doesn't think they are a sinner, they need to repent. That is they need to have their thinking changed to see their need of saving.

RickD wrote:I wouldn't say repentance is necessarily necessary for salvation.

Repentance is absolutely necessary for salvation. You would have to reject scripture at its grammatical historical face value to say otherwise. What's at issue here Rick is how you are defining repentance. "Turning from one's sin."
It is not that. And you are right to reject that. If it is, then repentance is a pre-salvation work, in which a person must clean up all their sin before receiving salvation. Sadly this is what many preach.

Tevko wrote:Are we saved simply by a historical belief in Christ?

The short answer is, no. Salvation is not about simply believing history. Believing history will not make you born again. Jesus said, "whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24) In this context Jesus is saying that this isn't a belief in history. If I said, "I believe in my wife," am I saying that I believe she exists? No. Yes, we do need to believe those facts about Jesus. But people can believe in the historical Jesus and still not trust Him as savior. To be saved one needs to know at some level they need saving, and that Christ is the provision for that saving. They are believing, trusting, faithing in Christ.

I am not saying that we can snatch one verse and settle the issue. We do need to be careful not to proof text verses to try and form or defend a position. When the term "saved" occurs in the bible it isn't necessarily always speaking to the same thing, such as regarding how an individual comes to receive forgiveness from God and eternal life.

This issue usually comes down to asking, "Are works necessary for salvation?" And, "what is necessary for salvation?"

jlay wrote: Also repentance. Probably the most misunderstood word in the Christian terminology. Probably the best paper I have read on the subject is here. I would strongly encourage everyone to read this in its entireity. http://www.cocoris.com/Topical%20Pages/ ... %20PDF.pdf
My experience is that the word has been redefined to mean, "turn from sin, have guilt for sin, or forsaking of sin." This simply isn't consistent with how the word metaneo was defined and used in the NT. It has to do with the mind, and belief. To give up one way of thinking and to embrace a new way. That is to change one's mind.

DannyM wrote:Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins.
It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

Dan, I don't think this is a correct definition. I do however, think that to trust in Christ one does have to recognize that they are a sinner. If a person doesn't think they are a sinner, they need to repent. That is they need to have their thinking changed to see their need of saving.

J, I'll read that paper but I'll say that my definition was just a broad, and perhaps unnecessary, way of saying to change one's mind. Is my understanding wrong here?

Goodness that's a bit of a biggy, J, and I've had 'a' glass of wine

Bookmarked it for tomorrow

Guys I believe in what Christ has done, I've done a years worth of research on the subject and continue to. I understand the desire to turn from sin based on trusting God, because it is sin that can and does ruin a persons life. What I don't understand is that Scripture seems to say that although works are not required as a part of salvation, the desire to perform good works are required. So it seems that in the end works are really required as a part of salvation. Am I seeing this wrong?

until recently, my desire to perform good works were done out of the motivation that only those who follow Christ are saved, and Christ commands us to perform Good works. And its worked very well for me.

Is it that we are somehow supposed to force ourselves to change our motivations?

Jlay

Come on back, man, I wanna talk about Repent

I'm around. Based on your last post, I was waiting for your reply.

So it seems that in the end works are really required as a part of salvation. Am I seeing this wrong?

Tev,
As I asked before, define works. And then list how many one has to do.
A Christian is saved to good works, not by good works.

J is that to me? You've attributed some bizarre quote to me...?

Danny,
Sorry about the confusion. I fixed it. First sentence is to you.

jlay wrote:Danny,
Sorry about the confusion. I fixed it. First sentence is to you.

Sorry J I should clarify. I said my expansion on 'repent' really just boiled down to 'a change of one's mind.' I wanted your thoughts on whether or not I have that right.

The words you used were,

Repent means to recognise, to be remorseful for your sins.
It’s a realisation of, coupled with a determination to turn from, sin

My initial thought and 2nd reading wouldn't lead me to conclude that this was describing metaneo.