Evidence for God from Science

neo-x wrote:

Christianity used to be the kinder religion. It used to offer something special in comparison with everything around it. Nothing was better. But now, with so much at their finger tips, the tolerance movement, knowing there are nice people in this world who don't believe in God. Knowing more about other religions. Christianity needs to start being viewed as compassionate again... And as a I know you are going to say "But we are!" but you guys need to make this more obvious to an Atheist who have already lost their faith... probably in humanity in general.

I JUST DON'T GET IT.

Why do you expect the christian to be always begging you to understand...why? I mean an atheist is not my problem, what he believes is not my problem either. If someone is interested he should ask, if not, hell no ones is trying to convert you on a gunpoint. I dofeel compassionate for a lot of people but there is a limit to it and that ends when someone does not want to understand and just make fun or mock. And I have atheist friends.

You asked me for help when you came here, tell me what insult did I do to you while helping you, did I mock you or tried to help you? Do you want to go over those emails again. So please, if you feel special warmth for fun making atheists, fine, no one is stopping you, but don't preach that as in all atheists are atheists because Christians went mad. That is just not true or even a proper excuse. I know a person who went through brutal times like your husband, he is a strong christian, because he saw the un-justice of it and realized how much God stood in contrast, so "I had it bad" is not a justifiable excuse to shut your eyes. I know people who have experience otherwise. And while what happened to your husband was horrifyingly wrong. I still do not find that a wise choice, an obvious one, but not a wise one. but this happen with people who have traumatic experiences, and he has my sympathies.

to your post in an another thread, "I do know good atheists, I have atheist relatives as well"

I guess... I have an unreasonable expectation that for a religion that is supposed to be the answer to everything should... have the answer to everything. And that these answers should makes sense to everyone.

I just... I don't like the way people talk about atheists. I get it... that is is a Christian place- and I really don't like it when a Atheist comes here and gets down on you guys either. It bothers me.

I am trying to understand and I am realizing that I am failing and I may be missing the point.

I just don't get the point of Christianity at all now. I find I am more confused about it then when I got here. So many different sects, so many different beliefs about the same thing... Some people with a heavy hand, some with a soft. At first I had an idea... and now I know I am wrong... but I am even more confused as to what the POINT is.

If it is not to be a better person, accepting Jesus as your lord and savoir, and believing in God- What is it? I know the last two are still true- but the first one is apparently not as I was told by one person that God doesn't count your good deeds. And I am getting the feeling that there are no good deeds? Am I right? Humans can only do evil is what I heard from one guy. I am just CONFUSED. I don't even know what to think anymore about Christians. I was thinking we could all join up, hand in hand, and be peaceful but I am thinking that was a misconception as well.

I have not felt wronged by you at all. Or even the church I went to visit yesterday. It was pretty cool. And they said I can come anytime even though I said I was Buddhist they are perfectly OK with it. Really nice people. I am saying that SOME PEOPLE have bad experiences or they hear it from others. That is the most common reason I have personally found sited. One of my friends says that she just didn't feel it made sense to her, but she still goes to church just hoping that maybe she will have an epiphany.

I am saying too many people equate Atheists with China like Atheists equate all Christians with extremists.

The most offensive thing I found on here so far was "Animals don't have souls". I am really not that upset at anything else. But that little belief kinda... made me on edge. No idea that some of you guys believed that. And I say some because the church I went to says that they do. O.o

I mean, some churches say you can become an Angel and others say you don't and that Angels are totally different beings.

It is supposed to be an eternal religion without change to God's word yet God's word clearly changes with each person who reads it and even just plainly halfway through the story. And even from book to book and translation to translation.

I think I am just surprised is all. I am finding a lot of pleasant conversation here... It really is interesting to hear everyone's viewpoints. Obviously, I am going to disagree with a few because I am not a part of the same religious faith as you guys. I mean, every sect with in Christianity seems to have a different opinion! I only ask questions out of curiosity. But it is not in the Christian faith to question things like that... but it is in mine so I just keep asking questions.

The the best and worst thing about a belief is that... it doesn't change. The coolest thing and least coolest thing about an idea is that it is ever changing.

I wasn't meaning to be offensive... I don't know why you took it that way- or maybe I am taking it that you are offended. If you are not, I apologize.

Why do you think people become Atheist? Please keep this to only U.S. or U.K.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:

neo-x wrote:

Christianity used to be the kinder religion. It used to offer something special in comparison with everything around it. Nothing was better. But now, with so much at their finger tips, the tolerance movement, knowing there are nice people in this world who don't believe in God. Knowing more about other religions. Christianity needs to start being viewed as compassionate again... And as a I know you are going to say "But we are!" but you guys need to make this more obvious to an Atheist who have already lost their faith... probably in humanity in general.

I JUST DON'T GET IT.

Why do you expect the christian to be always begging you to understand...why? I mean an atheist is not my problem, what he believes is not my problem either. If someone is interested he should ask, if not, hell no ones is trying to convert you on a gunpoint. I dofeel compassionate for a lot of people but there is a limit to it and that ends when someone does not want to understand and just make fun or mock. And I have atheist friends.

You asked me for help when you came here, tell me what insult did I do to you while helping you, did I mock you or tried to help you? Do you want to go over those emails again. So please, if you feel special warmth for fun making atheists, fine, no one is stopping you, but don't preach that as in all atheists are atheists because Christians went mad. That is just not true or even a proper excuse. I know a person who went through brutal times like your husband, he is a strong christian, because he saw the un-justice of it and realized how much God stood in contrast, so "I had it bad" is not a justifiable excuse to shut your eyes. I know people who have experience otherwise. And while what happened to your husband was horrifyingly wrong. I still do not find that a wise choice, an obvious one, but not a wise one. but this happen with people who have traumatic experiences, and he has my sympathies.

to your post in an another thread, "I do know good atheists, I have atheist relatives as well"

I guess... I have an unreasonable expectation that for a religion that is supposed to be the answer to everything should... have the answer to everything. And that these answers should makes sense to everyone.

I just... I don't like the way people talk about atheists. I get it... that is is a Christian place- and I really don't like it when a Atheist comes here and gets down on you guys either. It bothers me.

I am trying to understand and I am realizing that I am failing and I may be missing the point.

I just don't get the point of Christianity at all now. I find I am more confused about it then when I got here. So many different sects, so many different beliefs about the same thing... Some people with a heavy hand, some with a soft. At first I had an idea... and now I know I am wrong... but I am even more confused as to what the POINT is.

If it is not to be a better person, accepting Jesus as your lord and savoir, and believing in God- What is it? I know the last two are still true- but the first one is apparently not as I was told by one person that God doesn't count your good deeds. And I am getting the feeling that there are no good deeds? Am I right? Humans can only do evil is what I heard from one guy. I am just CONFUSED. I don't even know what to think anymore about Christians. I was thinking we could all join up, hand in hand, and be peaceful but I am thinking that was a misconception as well.

I have not felt wronged by you at all. Or even the church I went to visit yesterday. It was pretty cool. And they said I can come anytime even though I said I was Buddhist they are perfectly OK with it. Really nice people. I am saying that SOME PEOPLE have bad experiences or they hear it from others. That is the most common reason I have personally found sited. One of my friends says that she just didn't feel it made sense to her, but she still goes to church just hoping that maybe she will have an epiphany.

I am saying too many people equate Atheists with China like Atheists equate all Christians with extremists.

The most offensive thing I found on here so far was "Animals don't have souls". I am really not that upset at anything else. But that little belief kinda... made me on edge. No idea that some of you guys believed that. And I say some because the church I went to says that they do. O.o

I mean, some churches say you can become an Angel and others say you don't and that Angels are totally different beings.

It is supposed to be an eternal religion without change to God's word yet God's word clearly changes with each person who reads it and even just plainly halfway through the story. And even from book to book and translation to translation.

I think I am just surprised is all. I am finding a lot of pleasant conversation here... It really is interesting to hear everyone's viewpoints. Obviously, I am going to disagree with a few because I am not a part of the same religious faith as you guys. I mean, every sect with in Christianity seems to have a different opinion! I only ask questions out of curiosity. But it is not in the Christian faith to question things like that... but it is in mine so I just keep asking questions.

The the best and worst thing about a belief is that... it doesn't change. The coolest thing and least coolest thing about an idea is that it is ever changing.

I wasn't meaning to be offensive... I don't know why you took it that way- or maybe I am taking it that you are offended. If you are not, I apologize.

Why do you think people become Atheist? Please keep this to only U.S. or U.K.

Instead of going all over the place why don't we limit the discussion to a few topics. Before we can even discuss different religions we need to agree first on the existence of God and whether or not that's a rational belief as opposed to atheism being a rational belief. If we can't agree on the existence of God, there really is no point in discussing religions.

And to address your point about animals not having souls (as it seemed to bother you the most I am gathering), I for one do believe that all life forms have souls including plants. It's just that there are different kinds of souls. Plants have a non-sentient soul (I guess you might call that the lowest order type of soul). Animals have a sentient, albeit non-rational soul. And humans have the highest order soul, i.e. a sentient, rational soul. I believe it is the latter in which we were made in the image of God.

This was between you and Neo, but I'll try to clear some things up:

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I guess... I have an unreasonable expectation that for a religion that is supposed to be the answer to everything should... have the answer to everything. And that these answers should makes sense to everyone.

Well, I don't expect it to be simple. After all, we're talking about the biggest questions there are. Christianity makes a lot of sense to me, why don't you tell us what you don't understand so we can discuss it.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I just... I don't like the way people talk about atheists. I get it... that is is a Christian place- and I really don't like it when a Atheist comes here and gets down on you guys either. It bothers me.

Christianity had predicted this. It teaches that the mankind is fallen, so people do and say bad things to each other. This is unavoidable, but we can work on ourselves to grow closer to God and become better persons. Nobody is perfect though. As for what you say about "the way people talk about atheists", I still don't understand what we said or did wrong.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:If it is not to be a better person, accepting Jesus as your lord and savoir, and believing in God- What is it? I know the last two are still true- but the first one is apparently not as I was told by one person that God doesn't count your good deeds. And I am getting the feeling that there are no good deeds? Am I right? Humans can only do evil is what I heard from one guy. I am just CONFUSED. I don't even know what to think anymore about Christians. I was thinking we could all join up, hand in hand, and be peaceful but I am thinking that was a misconception as well.

You seem to be misunderstanding the doctrine of salvation by grace. The bottom line is that the human can do nothing to satisfy God, because God is omnipotent and thus we can't offer Him anything that He can't obtain by Himself. This doesn't mean that there are no good or bad deeds, this only means that God gave us his "rules" for our own good, not because He's some bossy guy who likes it when people play by his rules.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I am saying too many people equate Atheists with China like Atheists equate all Christians with extremists.

Why are you defending atheists all the time? Believe me, many would call you too stupid and/or deluded for believing in "magical beings", just as they call us.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:The most offensive thing I found on here so far was "Animals don't have souls". I am really not that upset at anything else. But that little belief kinda... made me on edge. No idea that some of you guys believed that. And I say some because the church I went to says that they do. O.o

We believe that animals are God's creation, which therefore deserve respect, but we humans are a special creation, endowed with reason and this immaterial and immortal entity we call "soul". I'm not sure our definitions of "soul" are the same.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:It is supposed to be an eternal religion without change to God's word yet God's word clearly changes with each person who reads it and even just plainly halfway through the story. And even from book to book and translation to translation.

Studies have shown that the Bibles we read nowadays are over 99% identical to the original Scriptures. You need to realize that they were written 2,000 years ago in languages completely different from today's. I've experienced this, because my language is sometimes so differently constructed than English, that I often have a hard time translating it. My only solution was to master thinking in English, otherwise I'd spend hours translating what I want to write here.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:But it is not in the Christian faith to question things like that...

Why not...

Reactionary wrote:This was between you and Neo, but I'll try to clear some things up:

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I guess... I have an unreasonable expectation that for a religion that is supposed to be the answer to everything should... have the answer to everything. And that these answers should makes sense to everyone.

Well, I don't expect it to be simple. After all, we're talking about the biggest questions there are. Christianity makes a lot of sense to me, why don't you tell us what you don't understand so we can discuss it.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I just... I don't like the way people talk about atheists. I get it... that is is a place- and I really don't like it when a Atheist comes here and gets down on you guys either. It bothers me.

Christianity had predicted this. It teaches that the mankind is fallen, so people do and say bad things to each other. This is unavoidable, but we can work on ourselves to grow closer to God and become better persons. Nobody is perfect though. As for what you say about "the way people talk about atheists", I still don't understand what we said or did wrong.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:If it is not to be a better person, accepting Jesus as your lord and savoir, and believing in God- What is it? I know the last two are still true- but the first one is apparently not as I was told by one person that God doesn't count your good deeds. And I am getting the feeling that there are no good deeds? Am I right? Humans can only do evil is what I heard from one guy. I am just CONFUSED. I don't even know what to think anymore about Christians. I was thinking we could all join up, hand in hand, and be peaceful but I am thinking that was a misconception as well.

You seem to be misunderstanding the doctrine of salvation by grace. The bottom line is that the human can do nothing to satisfy God, because God is omnipotent and thus we can't offer Him anything that He can't obtain by Himself. This doesn't mean that there are no good or bad deeds, this only means that God gave us his "rules" for our own good, not because He's some bossy guy who likes it when people play by his rules.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I am saying too many people equate Atheists with China like Atheists equate all Christians with extremists.

Why are you defending atheists all the time? Believe me, many would call you too stupid and/or deluded for believing in "magical beings", just as they call us.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:The most offensive thing I found on here so far was "Animals don't have souls". I am really not that upset at anything else. But that little belief kinda... made me on edge. No idea that some of you guys believed that. And I say some because the church I went to says that they do. O.o

We believe that animals are God's creation, which therefore deserve respect, but we humans are a special creation, endowed with reason and this immaterial and immortal entity we call "soul". I'm not sure our definitions of "soul" are the same.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:It is supposed to be an eternal religion without change to God's word yet God's word clearly changes with each person who reads it and even just plainly halfway through the story. And even from book to book and translation to translation.

Studies have shown that the Bibles we read nowadays are over 99% identical to the original Scriptures. You need to realize that they were written 2,000 years ago in languages completely different from today's. I've experienced this, because my language is sometimes so differently constructed than English, that I often have a hard time translating it. My only solution was to master thinking in English, otherwise I'd spend hours translating what I want to write here.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:But it is not in the Christian faith to question things like that...

Why not...

Questioning God is a sin no? (I may have misunderstood.)

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:Questioning God is a sin no? (I may have misunderstood.)

Depends on what you mean by "questioning God". The context of your statement was that every "sect" (it's called denomination) within Christianity has a different opinion on certain issues. This is normal, as I said, it can be very difficult to accurately interpret a 2,000-year-old text written in a different language. In some cases, more than one interpretation can be legitimate. Or sometimes, it's irrelevant for salvation and is a matter of personal choice. The age of the Earth is one of those - some Christians believe that Earth in 4,5 billion years old (OEC), some that it's 10,000 years old (YEC), some believe that God created through evolution (TE)... All of those views can't be correct, but you won't end up in hell if you hold to the wrong one.

If you meant that doubt is a sin... Well, I wouldn't call it a sin. It's just that God appreciates courage and a firm character, our faith should be rooted in reason because mood and state of mind change, and we shouldn't allow our faith to waver like our mood. I suggest reading James 1:1-27.

DannyM wrote:Easy, Pro

Proinsias wrote:To answer the op, I think Richard Dawkins and his friends are so popular as they are standing up and questioning religion, its authority and its roots. It has been an almost taboo subject for a long time. It resonates with many people.

What an outdated and mythical argument this is, Pro. Religion has been the whipping boy for the intelligentsia for hundreds of years now. This “taboo” argument is one of the reddest red herrings of all time. Brave old Richard, eh?

Most people I know who were really taken by Dawkins' theological ramblings were not people who went from committed Christian to ardent atheists, they were brought up in a religious family and schooling environment and never really felt a connection with it, reading Dawkins was like a breath of fresh air for them.

I agree. It’s like the dumb preaching to the dumb.

It's not really the validity or robustness of the arguments that Dawkins presents that make people want to shout about it in my opinion. It's that he's basically shouting 'religion is a load of old rubbish' and a lot of people think 'my goodness, he's right!".

In other words, it’s not intelligent arguments, but rather ranting that is the appeal? Quality.

I think so, as you say religion has been the whipping boy of the intelligentsia for hundreds of years, it's looks like the layman are enjoying being able to join in. On top of that Dawkins is an intelligent guy, dimwits don't get professorships at Oxford. He has an ability to capture the public imagination and make complicated theories and philosophies appear simple and easy to digest. He wasn't saying much new in the Selfish Gene or in the God Delusion, I couldn't bring myself to read it all, but he has a talent for engaging the public.

Personally I'm not much of fan of Dawkins since he turned his sights on religion but I hear plenty ranting Christians too. It's not a case of idiotic atheists ranting at perfectly composed, compassionate and intelligent Christians, there are plenty of strong minded morons of both sides of the line. Perhaps a celebrity death match between Dawkins and Fred Phelps?

I'd pay to see that.

Proinsias wrote:I think so, as you say religion has been the whipping boy of the intelligentsia for hundreds of years, it's looks like the layman are enjoying being able to join in. On top of that Dawkins is an intelligent guy, dimwits don't get professorships at Oxford.

But the layman has been getting his sixpence worth for as long as the intelligentsia.

Of course Dawkins is intelligent; but all philosophies are dog s**t in the sight of God. And besides, Dawkins’ philosophy is not even worth God’s attention; he is dour, predictable, pseudo sophisticated and utterly fallacious.

He has an ability to capture the public imagination

I think it would be nothing short of honest of me to point out that Dawkins has an ability to appeal to the lowest common denominator. He is essentially a hack appealing to amateur hacks.

and make complicated theories and philosophies appear simple and easy to digest. He wasn't saying much new in the Selfish Gene

I agree that The Selfish Gene is superb. It is an outstanding defence of the Darwinian metaphor and should be held up alongside similar works of imaginative wonder such as the Harry Potter saga.

or in the God Delusion, I couldn't bring myself to read it all, but he has a talent for engaging the public.

I ‘brang’ myself to read it, and it was shockingly childish.

Personally I'm not much of fan of Dawkins since he turned his sights on religion but I hear plenty ranting Christians too.

Indeed, and I’m one of them.

It's not a case of idiotic atheists ranting at perfectly composed, compassionate and intelligent Christians, there are plenty of strong minded morons of both sides of the line. Perhaps a celebrity death match between Dawkins and Fred Phelps?

I don’t really want to cheat by going to everybody‘s friend. So who’s Fred Phelps?

DannyM wrote:but all philosophies are dog s**t in the sight of God.

More poetic than philosophical but still a nice image.

DannyM wrote:I agree that The Selfish Gene is superb. It is an outstanding defence of the Darwinian metaphor and should be held up alongside similar works of imaginative wonder such as the Harry Potter saga.

Unfortunately I've not read Harry Potter. I have heard a few atheists compare the Bible to it though. Harry Potter does differ a little in that it's not managed to get much support from the scientific community. Glad to hear you found it superb, I though you wouldn't like it!

*edit*
This is the warm and loving light that is Fred Phelps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIp9Tx8x ... re=related

Proinsias wrote:

DannyM wrote:but all philosophies are dog s**t in the sight of God.

More poetic than philosophical but still a nice image.

DannyM wrote:I agree that The Selfish Gene is superb. It is an outstanding defence of the Darwinian metaphor and should be held up alongside similar works of imaginative wonder such as the Harry Potter saga.

Unfortunately I've not read Harry Potter. I have heard a few atheists compare the Bible to it though. Harry Potter does differ a little in that it's not managed to get much support from the scientific community. Glad to hear you found it superb, I though you wouldn't like it!

No, it was very good. And Dawkins has a good imagination. Indeed his imagination requires a Darwinian explanation.

This is the warm and loving light that is Fred Phelps:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIp9Tx8x ... re=related

Good grief. 57 seconds and I'm depressed. Could somebody just give me the skinny and tell me why he's so angry? Who has upset this Christian?

DannyM wrote:

Proinsias wrote:

DannyM wrote:but all philosophies are dog s**t in the sight of God.

More poetic than philosophical but still a nice image.

DannyM wrote:I agree that The Selfish Gene is superb. It is an outstanding defence of the Darwinian metaphor and should be held up alongside similar works of imaginative wonder such as the Harry Potter saga.

Unfortunately I've not read Harry Potter. I have heard a few atheists compare the Bible to it though. Harry Potter does differ a little in that it's not managed to get much support from the scientific community. Glad to hear you found it superb, I though you wouldn't like it!

No, it was very good. And Dawkins has a good imagination. Indeed his imagination requires a Darwinian explanation.

This is the warm and loving light that is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIp9Tx8x ... re=related

Good grief. 57 seconds and I'm depressed. Could somebody just give me the skinny and tell me why he's so angry? Who has upset this Christian?

I think the guy from the 700 club can be that next step down from that guy. LOL. Yeah there are loonies on both sides.

Believe it or not, I even get upset at some of what Richard Dawkins says. I definitely don't agree with everything. But- I was trying to answer why people liked him. It is actually kinda rare to meet an atheist who is so passionate and feels so strongly about his belief. Most Atheists keep it to themselves unless in a safe group who they know will accept them.

To answer a question: Why am I always defending Atheists? My husband is an Atheist. I love him. When someone generalizes, I often feel I need to defend him. I guess you guys all feel the need to defend God. It is only natural. ^.^;

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:

Reactionary wrote:This was between you and Neo, but I'll try to clear some things up:

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I guess... I have an unreasonable expectation that for a religion that is supposed to be the answer to everything should... have the answer to everything. And that these answers should makes sense to everyone.

Well, I don't expect it to be simple. After all, we're talking about the biggest questions there are. Christianity makes a lot of sense to me, why don't you tell us what you don't understand so we can discuss it.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I just... I don't like the way people talk about atheists. I get it... that is is a place- and I really don't like it when a Atheist comes here and gets down on you guys either. It bothers me.

Christianity had predicted this. It teaches that the mankind is fallen, so people do and say bad things to each other. This is unavoidable, but we can work on ourselves to grow closer to God and become better persons. Nobody is perfect though. As for what you say about "the way people talk about atheists", I still don't understand what we said or did wrong.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:If it is not to be a better person, accepting Jesus as your lord and savoir, and believing in God- What is it? I know the last two are still true- but the first one is apparently not as I was told by one person that God doesn't count your good deeds. And I am getting the feeling that there are no good deeds? Am I right? Humans can only do evil is what I heard from one guy. I am just CONFUSED. I don't even know what to think anymore about Christians. I was thinking we could all join up, hand in hand, and be peaceful but I am thinking that was a misconception as well.

You seem to be misunderstanding the doctrine of salvation by grace. The bottom line is that the human can do nothing to satisfy God, because God is omnipotent and thus we can't offer Him anything that He can't obtain by Himself. This doesn't mean that there are no good or bad deeds, this only means that God gave us his "rules" for our own good, not because He's some bossy guy who likes it when people play by his rules.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:I am saying too many people equate Atheists with China like Atheists equate all Christians with extremists.

Why are you defending atheists all the time? Believe me, many would call you too stupid and/or deluded for believing in "magical beings", just as they call us.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:The most offensive thing I found on here so far was "Animals don't have souls". I am really not that upset at anything else. But that little belief kinda... made me on edge. No idea that some of you guys believed that. And I say some because the church I went to says that they do. O.o

We believe that animals are God's creation, which therefore deserve respect, but we humans are a special creation, endowed with reason and this immaterial and immortal entity we call "soul". I'm not sure our definitions of "soul" are the same.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:It is supposed to be an eternal religion without change to God's word yet God's word clearly changes with each person who reads it and even just plainly halfway through the story. And even from book to book and translation to translation.

Studies have shown that the Bibles we read nowadays are over 99% identical to the original Scriptures. You need to realize that they were written 2,000 years ago in languages completely different from today's. I've experienced this, because my language is sometimes so differently constructed than English, that I often have a hard time translating it. My only solution was to master thinking in English, otherwise I'd spend hours translating what I want to write here.

Jonouchi Katsuya wrote:But it is not in the Christian faith to question things like that...

Why not...

Questioning God is a sin no? (I may have misunderstood.)

I've read through some of the argument, but this caught my eye. After reading through Job and Ecclesiastes and books like that where men of the Bible simply didn't act like the average Christian would expect a man of the Bible to be. Job and his friends IIRC began to question God, and I actually think God was cool with that. I mean, He put Job in his place at the end, but I believe that questioning it, and I mean SERIOUSLY following every nook and cranny, leads you right back to God and makes your relationship stronger.

The problem I see with people when they doubt God is they stop in the middle of their research. They look at the non-Christian side exclusively, and then they go: "Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, Christianity is a bunch of bull." And they forget to look at it all objectively. They just look at one side and stop. And that's a bit disappointing.

Mariolee wrote:The problem I see with people when they doubt God is they stop in the middle of their research. They look at the non-Christian side exclusively, and then they go: "Oh, that makes sense. Yeah, Christianity is a bunch of bull." And they forget to look at it all objectively. They just look at one side and stop. And that's a bit disappointing.

It's pretty tough to look at things objectively when you're not God. There are atheists who have looked at the Christian side, the guy who started the Atheist Toolbox, an old atheist forum I used to frequent, had been an evangelical pastor for many years. Most atheists I know were Christian beforehand, they have both looked at and lived the other side. There does seem to be a rather problematic assumption that anyone who turns from Christ was not really Christian in the first place, whereby a newly converted Christian can dismiss the experiences of someone with many years of experience on them as they must not have been genuine anyway - one man's 6 month long faith in Jesus is more relevant than someone with 30 years under his belt and a current rejection of Jesus.

If anything modern atheism seems more a rejection of Christianity as opposed to a default position in ignorance of Christianity. Most atheism isn't really based upon a rejection of Brahman or Taoism, it's based upon a rejection of the Judeo/Christian all good, all powerful, all knowing creator God/judge. In short much of the argument seems to be based around - if you reject it then you don't get it, you can't possibly understand me and disagree with me.

I think the problem works both ways, most Christians don't get overly deep into studying and experiencing other religions, they right them off as a bunch of bull. If we could all look at each others beliefs objectively, would we still feel the same about our own?

There does seem to be a rather problematic assumption that anyone who turns from Christ was not really Christian in the first place,

Sorry Pro, it's fundamentally flawed. A Christian is BORN AGAIN. A believer is one who KNOWS Christ. If you can unknow anyone I'd love to see an example. I have no doubt there are plenty of people who adhered to Christian religious principals, but that certainly doesn't pass the biblical standard of believer. Christian faith is not believing a religious ideology is true. It is believing/trusting/faithing in the person of Christ.

When someone says they used to be Christian, they are saying they knew Christ, and yet now they have unknown Him. Why do you think we should believe such people were genuine?

I think the problem works both ways, most Christians don't get overly deep into studying and experiencing other religions, they right them off as a bunch of bull. If we could all look at each others beliefs objectively, would we still feel the same about our own?

For me, I can say more so. The fact that most Christians don't do in-depth studies into other religions has no bearing on whether they have sound reasons to trust Christ. I can know 2+2=4 without considering 2,455 as a viable option. I think it is very telling that atheists are essentially only interested in Judeo-Christianity. A point I'm glad you brought up. Very telling indeed. One that ought to jump off the page at you.

jlay wrote:When someone says they used to be Christian, they are saying they knew Christ, and yet now they have unknown Him. Why do you think we should believe such people were genuine?

I do beleive many of these people are genuine*, the only thing I can think of which would prevent one from believing they were genuine is complete faith in Christianity.

Proinsias wrote:I think the problem works both ways, most Christians don't get overly deep into studying and experiencing other religions, they right them off as a bunch of bull. If we could all look at each others beliefs objectively, would we still feel the same about our own?

jlay wrote:For me, I can say more so. The fact that most Christians don't do in-depth studies into other religions has no bearing on whether they have sound reasons to trust Christ. I can know 2+2=4 without considering 2,455 as a viable option. I think it is very telling that atheists are essentially only interested in Judeo-Christianity. A point I'm glad you brought up. Very telling indeed. One that ought to jump off the page at you.

Telling indeed, but what does it tell? For me it's that Judeo-Christian thought is inspiring atheism like nothing else the world has seen. No other religion creates hate and disbelief in God as well as Christianity, and maybe Islam, is doing at the moment. It would seem that your religion is not only based on people that agree with you but it is also proven true every time someone disagrees with you.

That most Christians don't do in depth studies into other religions does not invalidate Christ but is does invalidate their dismissal of other religion. "I know what I like".

*the only proof I can offer is a vague feeling of authenticity.