Evidence for God from Science

I actually have a far simplier answer to the question of this thread.

People are judged on the basis of their response to general revelation, so that salvation on the basis of Christ's death is universally accessible.

People freely separate themselves from God against his will.

There is no contradiction in God's power and perfect love with those who never hear the gospel and are lost. There is no explicit contradiction, and no implicit contradiction has ever been proven. There is no guarantee that a world of universal, free salvation is feasible to God. It is logically impossible to make someone freely do something.

It is possible that God has arranged the world to have an optiminal balance between saved and the lost, and those who never hear the gospel and are lost would not have accepted it if they had heard it.

domokunrox wrote:I actually have a far simplier answer to the question of this thread.

People are judged on the basis of their response to general revelation, so that salvation on the basis of Christ's death is universally accessible.

People freely separate themselves from God against his will.

There is no contradiction in God's power and perfect love with those who never hear the gospel and are lost. There is no explicit contradiction, and no implicit contradiction has ever been proven. There is no guarantee that a world of universal, free salvation is feasible to God. It is logically impossible to make someone freely do something.

It is possible that God has arranged the world to have an optiminal balance between saved and the lost, and those who never hear the gospel and are lost would not have accepted it if they had heard it.

Again, unless God saves people (post Jesus) apart from knowledge of and faith in Jesus, then it is not apparent in Scripture.

(Edited 12-7 to add that: It MIGHT be true that God reveals Himself deeper (beyond the "General Revelation" described in Romans 1), including knowledge of Jesus and the Gospel, right at the cusp of death and unconsciousness, giving them one last opportunity to understand and believe. IF true, this would be an occurrence that we cannot see or truly understand. HOWEVER, this cannot be substantiated or obvious from reading Scripture. It may rarely, or even NEVER, occur.

I did have a 95-year-old aunt who was a life-long unbeliever, a very cantankerous and difficult person (she caused us many, many problems). We had prayed for her our entire lives, but it appeared to no avail. But as she slipped into a a final state of death, (eyes closed and unaware of her surroundings or of anything being said around her), she went into a long sequence that sounded like "dialog" (?), in which it very much sounded as if she was responding to an unheard (to us) voice that was addressing her very roughly and aggressively. She became evermore agitated, argumentative, and then her tone went from being more angry to more defensive-sounding. She first loudly exclaimed, over and over, for hours, "no, no, NO! NO!" It sounded like she was responding to someone who was wearing her defiance down. This went on for many hours. Eventually, she became less and less agitated and much quieter. She quit fighting whatever/whomever she perceived to be dressing her down or against her. She eventually stopped all talking, became quiet, and died just before daybreak. So, what was that all about? Delusions at death? A dialog with God? I have no idea. God knows. But IF this happens, it MUST happens before actual death, as Scripture does not support second chances after one dies.)

Romans 10:14-18: "How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

I think that by connecting verse 18 (last two sentences, above) to the importance of one hearing the Gospel (for salvation), makes me believe that those ONLY given the General Revelation - and who nonetheless (permanently) refuse(d)to positively respond to it (and thus were not/are not given any more than that, meaning, the Gospel) - were not/are not going to be saved. And God's foreknowledge allowed Him to foreknow that MORE information (The Gospel), would have done / will do them no good - as He foreknew / foreknows they would / they will only reject that as well, so He put(s) them in time and place, accordingly, so that many such people were not and, even today, are not, given any further revelation (the Gospel). Of course, some who rejected the General Revelation DID, and indeed today, still do, also eventually hear (and also reject) the Gospel.

But, again, I think the story of Cornelius Scripturally refutes the notion that anyone (post Jesus ministry and resurrection) can be saved without knowledge of and faith in Jesus and His Resurrection. The Bible says Cornelius was a man of faith, prayed to God, but was nonetheless NOT yet saved UNTIL he heard AND BELIEVED in Jesus through Peter's preaching of the Gospel. But, very key, Cornelius positively, sincerely and prayerfully RESPONDED to what God had ALREADY revealed to him - and so God sent him Peter to understand what He needed to know (about Jesus and the Resurrection) and to do (repent, believe, follow) in order to be saved.

So ANYONE having only the General Revelation CAN and WILL know more, but only IF they sincerely desire to - as God is not limited by obstacles of geography, place or time, in making the Gospel known!

Philip wrote:Again, unless God saves people (post Jesus) apart from knowledge of and faith in Jesus, then it is not apparent in Scripture.

Romans 10:14-18: How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.”

I think that by connecting verse 18 (last two sentences, above) to the importance of one hearing the Gospel (for salvation), makes me believe that those ONLY given the General Revelation - and who nonetheless refused to positively respond to it (and thus were not given any more than that, meaning, the Gospel) - were not saved. And God's foreknowledge that MORE information (The Gospel, would have done them no good), so He put them in place and time accordingly so that such people were never given any further revelation (the Gospel). Of course, some who rejected the General Revelation DID indeed also eventually hear (and also reject) the Gospel.

But, again, I think the story of Cornelius Scripturally refutes the notion that anyone (post Jesus ministry and resurrection) can be saved without knowledge of and faith in Jesus and His Resurrection. The Bible says Cornelius was a man of faith, prayed to God, but was nonetheless not saved UNTIL he heard AND BELIEVED in Jesus through Peter's preaching of the Gospel. But, very key, Cornelius positively, sincerely and prayerfully RESPONDED to what God had already revealed to him - and so God sent him Peter to understand what He needed to know (about Jesus and the Resurrection) and do (repent, believe, follow) to be saved.

So ANYONE having only the General Revelation CAN and WILL know more if they so desire to - as God is not limited to obstacles of geography, place or time, in making the Gospel known!

Philip,
That is well thought out, and makes a lot of sense. I can't see anything there after reading, that I disagree with.

what about re...

Oh that's right, we already went there :)

is my "idolatrus" view that those who never had a chance for exposure will be reincarnated with a life oppurtunity to have access to christ. It is fair, it is just, and it makes sence

You want a God who can keep giving chances...huh...reincarnation is against the Biblical theory. That is the bottom line. To get a position on scripture, it must have support from within the scripture. Otherwise it is "idolatrus", as you aptly put.

You want a God who can keep giving chances..

Plus it's a complete absurdity to believe that God would need to give anyone further chances at embracing salvation - because as he already intimately knows the hearts, motivations, actions and decisions (past, present and FUTURE) of each person - he thus also knows when no number of additional chances would EVER change one who has PERMANENTLY decided to reject ANY and ALL further overtures or information He might provide them. In fact, God knew every decision and reaction of every person BEFORE THEY WERE EVEN BORN. In fact, there is NOTHING (no decision, action or event: past, present or future) that our all-knowing and omniscient God hasn't ALWAYS known.

A few final thoughts:

And we know that heaven will be quite diverse in nationalities and races: “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, …” (Revelation 7:9)

Also, I believe that the Bible teaches that there is an “age of accountability,” (which would be a different age of maturity for each child) and only after which reaching does one become responsible for their sins. King David alluded to this in his response to the death of his and Bathsheba’s child: He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the LORD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.” (2 Samuel 12:22-23). And so I believe that, all children, since the beginning of time, who died or were slain before reaching this age of accountability, contribute to the numbers of those who will ultimately be in heaven. God is merciful. And so for one not yet able to understand the Gospel or their responsibility for sin, I believe God finds a way. Dumb, deaf and mute, severely retarded or brain damaged from birth – God can find a way.