Evidence for God from Science

carpentersson wrote:Outstanding!
Most folks can't get their mind around the idea of a man-made thing becoming sentient, that is having moral decision making abilities, the ability to perceive of God, but we know that others besides human beings can think and sin too, ie. angels, demons, etc. It is our thinking ability that sets us apart from the animals, in our minds is the intersection of the physical and spiritual dimensions. It was from growing in knowledge that we were first able to "walk" with God, and from eating from the "tree" (the upward growth) of the knowledge of good and evil that we first became separated from God.
I discovered this theory about the "beast" somewhat strangely, sort of coming in the back door.
When something doesn't make sense, I start asking all kinds of questions.
Why does the bible refer to a beast if it means only an individual man?
If the beast is not a man, then what could it be that has the ability to think, to speak, to sin and even be sent to hell?
Does God create the "beast" or is it a manmade thing or who created it?
If there is some creation of men that can think and speak, what is it?
The unholy trinity, the dragon, the beast and the false prophet are all cast into hell, but no nation has an eternal spirit to be cast into hell.
And what kingdom, nation, ruler or entity could have the sort of world wide powers given to the "beast"?

No one super computer or even network of computers has this level of power yet, but I can see the possibility and with the exponential growth rate of technology, I can see it happening very soon.
So, I asked if there was any kind of global man made thing that might someday have the ability to think and speak and have a living spirit. I knew of the internet so I went to the library to search about computers and found it is named World Wide Web which is commonly written as WWW, like the horns of an animal or the V sign the youngsters always make nowdays with two fingers, the symbol of devil horns.
I looked to see what numerical value WWW might have in the biblical language Hebrew and guess what? 666

It is indeed interesting.

Danieltwotwenty wrote:It is indeed interesting.

Interesting, yes, but the Scriptures clearly speak of the Antichrist as a person (Da 8:19-23) with great intelligence and oratorical abilities (Da 7:20), confident and prideful and financially sucessful (Da 8:24-25). He is also politically astute, a keen administrator and a religious man (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4).

So, while the world wide web certainly carries the spirit of antichrist, the Antichrist will appear as a person who will propose to save the world from its ills.

FL

I thought the Beast and the anti-christ were two different things?

Danieltwotwenty wrote:I thought the Beast and the anti-christ were two different things?

They are one and the same. We first meet him in Revelation 11:7. The false prophet of Revelation 13:10-11 is also called the Beast and he will promote the worship of the Antichrist - the Beast - of Rev 11:7. (Read all of Revelation 13 for more information.) The Antichrist is called the Beast only in Revelation but he shows up here and there throughout the New Testament. Paul gives an excellent description of him in 2 Thessalonians 2.

Anyway...who cares? we are to look for the coming of Christ and not for the other guy.

FL

Anyway...who cares? we are to look for the coming of Christ and not for the other guy.

Fair point...
I just finished reading Revelation Today, it was so inspiring even though i dont understand some of it.

Awesome! Revelation amazes me, I'm still rereading it and still don't understand some of it.
Only God knows the future and the fact that He can accurately tell us about it blows my mind! I can therefore see that nothing in the universe surprises God, nothing is an accident...the smallest particle in the farthest galaxy moves exactly as God arranged.
In a book packed with great mysteries and strange images of things to come I read verses in Revelation 13:18 flagged with a preface "This calls for wisdom." and I ask why? Don't you already have to be really well informed and a deep thinker just to understand some of it? I dare to infer from these verses in Revelation 13 that it will be dangerously difficult for most to recognize the identity of the sea beast.
So I care. Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

The first I read about "antichrist" in the book of 1 John 2:22 "Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist - he denies the Father and the Son."
Again in 2 John 7 "Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist." So there are many antichrists, but I don't see a specific prophetic vision labeled "the antichrist".
The book of Daniel describes various visions of beasts, which are explained as future kingdoms, and various horns, which are future kings.
The book of Revelation describes 2 beasts/monsters, a beast out of the sea and a beast out of the earth. The earth beast forces all to receive a mark which is the name or number of the name of the first sea beast and that number is 666.
The "false prophet" is also antichrist being against the Messiah.
In Revelation 20:10 we see that the "beast" and the "false prophet" and the "devil" are thrown into everlasting torment.
Therefore we can see that 666 has only to do with the identity of the "beast out of the sea" and not to be confused with other beasts, the "false prophet", the "dragon", or the "antichrist" in general. This sea beast must be more than just an earthly kingdom since it is cast into hell, no?

carpentersson wrote:Awesome! Revelation amazes me, I'm still rereading it and still don't understand some of it.

I could recommend a good commentary, two good commentaries:

-The Book of the Revelation by Lehman Strauss
-Revelation, by Harry A. Ironside

carpentersson wrote:This sea beast must be more than just an earthly kingdom since it is cast into hell, no?

Rev 19:20 tells you who is cast into hell. The Beast is a person, not a kingdom.

FL

And what kingdom, nation, ruler or entity could have the sort of world wide powers given to the "beast"?

I can't think of how the internet could command nations.

Rev 19:20 tells you who is cast into hell. The Beast is a person, not a kingdom.

FL

Agreed

neo-x wrote:I can't think of how the internet could command nations.

Well...the internet is already used as a tool to organize demonstrations, rallies and other popular manifestations. Presumably, the internet could be used to determine the policies of a nation foolish enough to give it the power to do so.

FL

I do not agree that the beast out of the sea is necessarily a person.
I don't insist it is not a man either. I'm just saying one interpretation makes a lot more sense than the other.
I have searched the bible and read mountains of commentaries and still can't find any scripture which proves the first beast of revelation must be "a man". I remain open minded though for any additional input.
The bible does indicate there is a man involved and it does make sense if referring to the second beast out of the earth, the "false prophet", since all prophets mentioned in the bible were men. But, again, let's be open minded to the many options of interpretation. If only one of the Holy trinity has a body, then perhaps only one of the unholy trinity has a body.

Revelation 13:18 Does not say the beast is a man, but that the number of his name is a man's number. That strikes me as a very odd thing, as when Jesus refers to Himself as "the son of man". It's a matter of perspective.
The word "he" in context does not always mean a man since God, the Dragon, angels and demons are often called "he".
Consider some of the non-human characteristics of "the beast out of the sea".
The beast out of the earth has a voice already but the first beast seems to have no mouth and no breath until they are given to him...Revelation 13:5, 15. What ordinary man has to be given a mouth, breath, a voice? If a man, was he born mute?
And also the sea beast seems to have no ordinary physical body since it was given an "image" "..so that it could speak...". If such a powerful man, why doesn't he boldly appear in person?
Or then, if the beast must be a man then by the same logic the dragon is also a man, right?
Clearly, physical things like rocks and animals or governments are not spiritual things to be cast into hell, I hope we can all agree on that. Whatever this "beast" is, it has an eternal spirit subject to God's eternal judgement.
Yet, this sea beast is described as a powerful ruler, the "eighth king" in Revelation 17:11.
Is it possible that any future man-made thing might become ruler/king, be given an image, a voice and great power and have an eternal spirit?
Let's not trim the jigsaw peices as we go to fit our preconceived picture, but let's put the peices together carefully where they fit and consider all the possible arrangements to form any picture that makes sense.
Using Gematria:
The value 6 hundred 60 and 6 as the result of adding the numerical values of all the letters of somebody's name in any language has millions of results and cannot clearly point to any one person or identity.
Simple counting:
666 in English equates to FFF
666 in Latin equates to GGG
666 in John's Greek equates to ZZZ
666 in Hebrew equates to WWW

Get any picture?

As far as I can tell and IMHO.

The beast from the abyss (the sea) is the anti-Christ. The beast from the earth is the false prophet. I believe they are both men, spirit men, they would have to be to do the things they are going to do. The Dragon is Satan. Thus the three make up the un-holy trinity in direct opppostion to the Holy Trinity of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

The beast (anti-Christ) is mentioned no less than 33 times in Revelation, whose proper title in Rev is, "the Beast who ascends from the Abyss having seven heads and ten horns". (never referred to as the anti-Christ in Rev).


How about these lines from scripture? That describe the Beast from the abyss (the sea) the anti-Christ as a man.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. ... And then shall that wicked (the lawless one) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders."

Also A man called Gabriel appeared to Daniel and provided him with the visions concerning the End Times. In Daniel 8:19 (NIV) he said: “I am going to tell you what will happen later in THE TIME OF WRATH, because the vision concerns the appointed TIME OF THE END.” In Daniel 11:36 (NIV) we have mention again of this time of the end. Speaking regarding the coming Antichrist, who it calls here a king, it says: “The king will do as he pleases. He will exalt and magnify himself above every god and will say unheard-of things against the God of gods. He will be successful until the TIME OF WRATH is completed, for what has been determined must take place.”

We are left in no doubt as to who the beast is. He is called elsewhere, the man of sin. The son of perdition. The man of lawlessness. He is a man whose nature is spirit as is the nature of all the angels so called.


There are many others. So Scripture tells me he will be a man.

I think your misunderstanding the "Image of the beast" that will be set up. Its not the beast (anti-Christ) himself but only an image, maybe a statue, picture? As sidekick to the Antichrist,(the false prophet) he exhibits signs, miracles and wonders on the Beast's behalf, whereby all the inhabitants of the world-whose name are not in the Lamb's book of life are amazed and deceived.

It is the False Prophet who forces the peoples to worship the Antichrist who has been raised from the dead. "He ordered them to set up an image of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed." Rev 13:14,15 (NIV).

Now this is a spectacular occurrence and even more impressive than calling fire down from heaven in the sight of men. The False Prophet orders a statue of the Antichrist to be erected. This is not unheard of as Nebuchadnezzar did the same thing in the days of Daniel, and all peoples were to bow down to his image in those days. The same applies with dictators today such as Saddam Hussein when he ruled Iraq and Chairman Mao in China. Statues of themselves could be seen everywhere and their pictures hung in every house. The present dictator of North Korea has statues of himself all over that country. But the False Prophet does then one better. When the image is erected, he will have the power to make the image come alive and speak. What a spectacle that will be. Now this is a trick that has never been seen before. No wonder all the people of the world will be at the whim of the Antichrist and ready to kill all those who oppose his word and who refuse to bow the knee to his image.

The beast from the abyss (the sea) is the anti-Christ. The beast from the earth is the false prophet. I believe they are both men, spirit men, they would have to be to do the things they are going to do. The Dragon is Satan. Thus the three make up the un-holy trinity in direct opppostion to the Holy Trinity of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Again, Revelation does not use the word antichrist. 1 and 2 John refer to many antichrists, not the one and only "Antichrist" as in the movies.

“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. ... And then shall that wicked (the lawless one) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming. Even him whose coming is after the working of Satan, with all power and signs and lying wonders."
In these scriptures you see that the word "beast" is not used. Is it not likely that the "sidekick" False Prophet will also be present to glorify himself in the Temple along with the "image of the beast"?
Must we presume that a king must be a physical man? Is it not possible that a king could be a ruler of a different nature?

I think your misunderstanding the "Image of the beast" that will be set up. Its not the beast (anti-Christ) himself but only an image, maybe a statue, picture? As sidekick to the Antichrist,(the false prophet) he exhibits signs, miracles and wonders on the Beast's behalf, whereby all the inhabitants of the world-whose name are not in the Lamb's book of life are amazed and deceived.
No, I agree the image is some representation of the beast, it could be a statue, but then why not say "statue" if that is what is meant? Why not a televised image or holographic projection or other technology?
We should watch out for inserting into the text or confusing various terms which have distinctly different meanings like
"The Antichrist", "the man of sin" and "the beast".

Again, Revelation does not use the word antichrist. 1 and 2 John refer to many antichrists, not the one and only "Antichrist" as in the movies.

I said that Revelation does not use the word anti-Christ. But its obvious to me that the beast is the anti-Christ because of all the scripture I quoted. 1 and 2 John does refer to many anti-Christs. But that does not mean that the beast will not be the "one". Anti Christ can mean either in the stead of Christ or against Christ. There are many people out there right now and throughout history that fit the "against Christ" definition. The "in the stead of Christ" definition is reserved for the true anti-Christ, The Beast of revelation as it says in scripture. I don't know what the movies have to do with it?

In these scriptures you see that the word "beast" is not used. Is it not likely that the "sidekick" False Prophet will also be present to glorify himself in the Temple along with the "image of the beast"?
Must we presume that a king must be a physical man? Is it not possible that a king could be a ruler of a different nature?

These scriptures were all written by different people so they use different words. The use of the word "King" always refers to a man. So I would not presume otherwise.

No, I agree the image is some representation of the beast, it could be a statue, but then why not say "statue" if that is what is meant? Why not a televised image or holographic projection or other technology?
We should watch out for inserting into the text or confusing various terms which have distinctly different meanings like
"The Antichrist", "the man of sin" and "the beast".

I said it could be a statue or picture or some other type of image. So it says image because we don't know what that image will be. The different terms are all referring to the same thing, "The Antichrist", "the man of sin", "The Son of Perdition", and "the beast" all are the same person.

I agree with Grizz that the Antichrist will be a man because a literal reading & understanding of the Bible would suggest nothing else. In The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, under the topic Antichrist, there are 10 clues to the Man of Sin's identity:

1. He will rise to power in the last days (Daniel 8:19-23).
2. He will rule the whole world (Revelation 13:7).
3. His headquarters will be in Rome (Revelation 17:8-9).
4. He is intelligent and persuasive (Daniel 7:20).
5. He will rule by international consent (Revelation 17:12-13).
6. He will rule by deception (Daniel 8:24-25).
7. He will control the global economy (Revelation 13:16-17).
8. He will make a peace treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27).
9. He will break the treaty and invade Israel (Daniel 9:26).
10. He will claim to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The number 666 can have many fanciful interpretations as Carpentersson has pointed out. In my lifetime, I have seen it applied to the Pope, Leonid Bresnev, Mao and - lately - to President Obama. While all of this is amusing perhaps the real meaning is hidden for the moment - veiled - until the Restrainer is taken away and the Man of Sin is allowed full rein, and full reign, so to speak. When that time comes, faithful Christians will have no trouble identifying the Antichrist.

FL

I do not understand the revalation.

We will know from those signs (it should be obvious) that that person is the antichrist so then why would people follow him?

?And another quic question, how did you get "his headquarters will be Rome"?