Evidence for God from Science

RickD wrote:I can't believe I've been on these boards as long as I have, and I missed this until now:
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/s ... r.html#n15
All the searching I've done to try to show why I know I have absolute assurance in Christ, is summed up in that article. Why would I want any other god, except the one true God who promises me I am eternally secure in Him?
Those of you who doubt your salvation, or aren't sure you have absolute assurance of eternal life, accept Christ today.

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)

Rick, Danny, this quote is from the article:

1 Timothy 4:1
Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."48 The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

Do you agree with it?

Byblos wrote:Rick, Danny, this quote is from the article:

1 Timothy 4:1
Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."48 The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

Do you agree with it?

John,

I believe people can hear the word, profess to believe and yet fall away, of unbelieving heart. Matthew 13:21,22,23
Hebrews 3:12

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:Rick, Danny, this quote is from the article:

1 Timothy 4:1
Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 4:1 "that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."48 The fact that some people fall away from the faith does not mean that they were ever saved, but that they had professed to be Christians at some point in time. They knew about the Lord Jesus Christ and professed for a time to follow Him, but then they apostatized from the faith.

Do you agree with it?

John,

I believe people can hear the word, profess to believe and yet fall away, of unbelieving heart. Matthew 13:21,22,23
Hebrews 3:12

But that's not what 1 Timothy 4:1 says, it says in later times some will ABANDON the faith, which means they were believers and now have abandoned it. Now these people will fall in one of two categories, either they are saved no matter, which contradicts the article (and by the way, supports your position of secure salvation), or they became apostates as the article states and either lost their salvation or really never had it. On the one hand is absolute assurance (even for apostates) and on the other is a moral assurance. I happen to believe in the latter and so do many non-Catholic Christians, they just don't know it.

Byblos wrote:But that's not what 1 Timothy 4:1 says, it says in later times some will ABANDON the faith, which means they were believers and now have abandoned it.

John, I see an abandonment of the faith; nominal Christians abandoning the Christianity of the Bible. I see no ‘abandonment’ of salvation here. This again suggests that they were not born again, and thus not saved Christians. It just brings me back to 1 John 2:19

Byblos wrote:Now these people will fall in one of two categories, either they are saved no matter, which contradicts the article (and by the way, supports your position of secure salvation), or they became apostates as the article states and either lost their salvation or really never had it. On the one hand is absolute assurance (even for apostates) and on the other is a moral assurance. I happen to believe in the latter and so do many non-Catholic Christians, they just don't know it.

I see no indication that they were ever saved. So again there is no turning away from a salvation, but a turning away from 'the faith'.

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:But that's not what 1 Timothy 4:1 says, it says in later times some will ABANDON the faith, which means they were believers and now have abandoned it.

John, I see an abandonment of the faith; nominal Christians abandoning the Christianity of the Bible. I see no ‘abandonment’ of salvation here. This again suggests that they were not born again, and thus not saved Christians. It just brings me back to 1 John 2:19

Byblos wrote:Now these people will fall in one of two categories, either they are saved no matter, which contradicts the article (and by the way, supports your position of secure salvation), or they became apostates as the article states and either lost their salvation or really never had it. On the one hand is absolute assurance (even for apostates) and on the other is a moral assurance. I happen to believe in the latter and so do many non-Catholic Christians, they just don't know it.

I see no indication that they were ever saved. So again there is no turning away from a salvation, but a turning away from 'the faith'.

Which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make Danny. If they abandoned the faith and were never saved, what does that say about that absolute assurance they THOUGHT they had at the time they thought they were believers? It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God). There have been many who were in that position who will tell you they had all the assurance in the world to later find out they never had it because they proved to themselves they were never saved. In any case, I think we've beaten the issue to death at this stage but I'm sure we'll have to revisit later on as we go.

Byblos wrote:Which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make Danny. If they abandoned the faith and were never saved, what does that say about that absolute assurance they THOUGHT they had at the time they thought they were believers? It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God). There have been many who were in that position who will tell you they had all the assurance in the world to later find out they never had it because they proved to themselves they were never saved. In any case, I think we've beaten the issue to death at this stage but I'm sure we'll have to revisit later on as we go.

Brother, how can I ever abandon the faith? Why would I ever abandon the faith? Once born again, you have the seed of God 1 John 3:9 I'm off to bed and will try to answer more fully tomorrow the contention that the stragglers 'had' or 'thought they had' assurance.

Night, Bro

DannyM wrote:

Byblos wrote:Which is EXACTLY the point I'm trying to make Danny. If they abandoned the faith and were never saved, what does that say about that absolute assurance they THOUGHT they had at the time they thought they were believers? It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God). There have been many who were in that position who will tell you they had all the assurance in the world to later find out they never had it because they proved to themselves they were never saved. In any case, I think we've beaten the issue to death at this stage but I'm sure we'll have to revisit later on as we go.

Brother, how can I ever abandon the faith? Why would I ever abandon the faith? Once born again, you have the seed of God 1 John 3:9 I'm off to bed and will try to answer more fully tomorrow the contention that the stragglers 'had' or 'thought they had' assurance.

Night, Bro

Brother I know you won't, I know you will persevere 'til the end .

Byblos,

This thread has much more significance than just posting our sides, and letting the chips fall where they may.

Some things you said, threw up a red flag, and are very troubling.

This can happen to anyone Danny, including you and me. Unless you have a crystal ball that looks ahead to the day we die, you don't know weather or not either of us will become apostates (or more to the point, believe that we became apostates).

It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God).

Brother I know you won't, I know you will persevere 'til the end .

The perseverance of the believer is not what keeps a believer in Christ eternally. The perseverance of The Holy Spirit of God indwelling the new creature in Christ, is who keeps us secure.

When I became a new creature in Christ, I received the Holy Spirit of God, as a deposit guaranteeing what God has promised.

The Holy Spirit of God, in me, confirms to my spirit, that God's promises of eternal security are true. For the life of me, I can't understand how any born-again believer, filled with the Holy Spirit of God, could not have absolute assurance of eternal life.
Your denial of absolute assurance for the born-again believer is practically making Christ's sacrifice equal to Old Testament animal sacrifice. If Christ's sacrifice once and for all, wasn't sufficient to cover all sin(past, present, and FUTURE), then God's promises are lies.

Your denial of absolute assurance of the true believers in Christ, logically leads to the question of if you are truly trusting on Christ alone, for your salvation.
Byblos, this now brings us to the very important point that I was trying to get across to you in the moderator forum thread.
Byblos, I urge you now, as I mentioned before, to earnestly seek God's will on this. Open up your heart, pray for discernment, and God will show you that the false gospel system of works you have been following is not the same as trusting in Christ's all efficacious sacrifice.

You can do what you will with my advice, but I know that God will reveal the truth to you IF you are truly open to His truth.

RickD wrote:Byblos,

This thread has much more significance than just posting our sides, and letting the chips fall where they may.

Some things you said, threw up a red flag, and are very troubling.

This can happen to anyone Danny, including you and me. Unless you have a crystal ball that looks ahead to the day we die, you don't know weather or not either of us will become apostates (or more to the point, believe that we became apostates).

It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God).

Brother I know you won't, I know you will persevere 'til the end .

The perseverance of the believer is not what keeps a believer in Christ eternally. The perseverance of The Holy Spirit of God indwelling the new creature in Christ, is who keeps us secure.

When I became a new creature in Christ, I received the Holy Spirit of God, as a deposit guaranteeing what God has promised.

The Holy Spirit of God, in me, confirms to my spirit, that God's promises of eternal security are true. For the life of me, I can't understand how any born-again believer, filled with the Holy Spirit of God, could not have absolute assurance of eternal life.
Your denial of absolute assurance for the born-again believer is practically making Christ's sacrifice equal to Old Testament animal sacrifice. If Christ's sacrifice once and for all, wasn't sufficient to cover all sin(past, present, and FUTURE), then God's promises are lies.

Your denial of absolute assurance of the true believers in Christ, logically leads to the question of if you are truly trusting on Christ alone, for your salvation.
Byblos, this now brings us to the very important point that I was trying to get across to you in the moderator forum thread.
Byblos, I urge you now, as I mentioned before, to earnestly seek God's will on this. Open up your heart, pray for discernment, and God will show you that the false gospel system of works you have been following is not the same as trusting in Christ's all efficacious sacrifice.

You can do what you will with my advice, but I know that God will reveal the truth to you IF you are truly open to His truth.

Rick,

I truly appreciate your concern brother and I know that it's coming from the heart. You are, however, attacking a straw man since I haven't said a true believer in Christ cannot have absolute assurance (whether or not I will make that case is irrelevant now). If anything I am making YOUR case even stronger by saying even an apostate OUGHT TO believe he has (HAS) absolute assurance because if he didn't then absolute assurance doesn't exist. The question is are you willing to take the case to its logical conclusion?

RickD wrote:For the life of me, I can't understand how any born-again believer, filled with the Holy Spirit of God, could not have absolute assurance of eternal life.

Surely even the born again believer has doubts from time to time.

I truly appreciate your concern brother and I know that it's coming from the heart. You are, however, attacking a straw man since I haven't said a true believer in Christ cannot have absolute assurance (whether or not I will make that case is irrelevant now). If anything I am making YOUR case even stronger by saying even an apostate OUGHT TO believe he has (HAS) absolute assurance because if he didn't then absolute assurance doesn't exist. The question is are you willing to take the case to its logical conclusion?

Byblos, you said you believed in moral assurance and perseverance.
I have absolute assurance because the Holy Spirit of God, indwelling me, speaks to my spirit, confirming God's promises of my eternal security in Christ. The apostate DOES NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about absolute assurance for the born-again believer only, not apostates.

Again, are you open to what God has to say about this? This isn't about winning a debate, Byblos. It's about why YOU don't know you have absolute assurance of salvation.

Byblos, you said:

You are, however, attacking a straw man since I haven't said a true believer in Christ cannot have absolute assurance (whether or not I will make that case is irrelevant now).

You also said:

I have a moral assurance yes. I don't believe one can have an absolute unconditional assurance for several reasons (none of which have to do with authority, by the way):

and

It becomes meaningless Danny because NONE of us can be sure we will never abandon the faith and prove we were never saved, none (unless of course we have a private and direct revelation from God).

and

At the time they were believers they thought they had absolute assurance but now lead an apostate's life. This can happen to anyone Danny, including you and me. Unless you have a crystal ball that looks ahead to the day we die, you don't know weather or not either of us will become apostates (or more to the point, believe that we became apostates)

Proinsias wrote:

RickD wrote:For the life of me, I can't understand how any born-again believer, filled with the Holy Spirit of God, could not have absolute assurance of eternal life.

Surely even the born again believer has doubts from time to time.

The born again believer can and does have doubts about many things. But, Proinsias, as I stated before, when a person believes in Christ, he receives a deposit guaranteeing what is to come(2 Corinthians 1:22). The Holy Spirit of God in us(the deposit), confirms to our spirit, God's promises of eternal security. That my friend, is the difference between a relationship with Christ(true Christianity), and every other man-made religion.

RickD wrote:

I truly appreciate your concern brother and I know that it's coming from the heart. You are, however, attacking a straw man since I haven't said a true believer in Christ cannot have absolute assurance (whether or not I will make that case is irrelevant now). If anything I am making YOUR case even stronger by saying even an apostate OUGHT TO believe he has (HAS) absolute assurance because if he didn't then absolute assurance doesn't exist. The question is are you willing to take the case to its logical conclusion?

Byblos, you said you believed in moral assurance and perseverance.
I have absolute assurance because the Holy Spirit of God, indwelling me, speaks to my spirit, confirming God's promises of my eternal security in Christ. The apostate DOES NOT have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I'm talking about absolute assurance for the born-again believer only, not apostates.

Again, are you open to what God has to say about this? This isn't about winning a debate, Byblos. It's about why YOU don't know you have absolute assurance of salvation.

That's my position, yes. But that's not what I'm arguing now Rick. Why is it that you're not answering my questions?

Sorry, Byblos, I'm not trying to avoid your questions.

Do you agree with it?

Danny answered your question with pretty much the exact answer I would have.

The question is are you willing to take the case to its logical conclusion?

I'm not sure I understand what you're asking here.