CAIN'S WIFE

[Seraph]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

[PaulSacramento]

How about those whos "sins were not like adams"?

even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam,

And Paul seems to be saying that death SPREAD to all because all had sinned, but what was the sin?

[PaulSacramento]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

Well, if it wasn't Adam's (genetic) sin that we are judged and die for, then that would mean that it was Adam that spread the sin to people, yes?

[Byblos]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

This is going to sound much like the secured salvation thread but here goes it anyway ...

I believe in original sin and the only way to remove the stain of original sin is to be baptized into Christ. From there on it is my sins I will be judged on (now I will duck in anticipation ...).

[RickD]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

Well, if it wasn't Adam's (genetic) sin that we are judged and die for, then that would mean that it was Adam that spread the sin to people, yes?

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, Paul. Could you elaborate?

[PaulSacramento]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

Well, if it wasn't Adam's (genetic) sin that we are judged and die for, then that would mean that it was Adam that spread the sin to people, yes?

I'm not sure where you're getting that from, Paul. Could you elaborate?

We seem to get from Paul that death entered the world via Adam and that it spread to all because of sin.
Paul doesn't say that we are sinners BECAUSE of Adam and being decendent FROM Adam, he says that Death spread from Adam and we "caught" it because we are sinners.
Sin is not a "genetic cancer" that kills, but the choices we make that makes us sinful and then we "get the cancer" and die.
(sorry if the cancer analogy others anyone).

I also believe we are born with an "original sin", but so was Adam and Eve, and that sin is the notion that we don't need God, that we can BE God and from THAT sin, all sin comes from and death enters and destroys Us.

[RickD]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

This is going to sound much like the secured salvation thread but here goes it anyway ...

I believe in original sin and the only way to remove the stain of original sin is to be baptized into Christ. From there on it is my sins I will be judged on (now I will duck in anticipation ...).

Byblos, I don't disagree with this. But,(and there's always a but) when are we baptized into Christ?

And, I also believe I will be judged on my good works and sins. But, only judged as far as heavenly rewards, not judged as to eternal life. Christ gave me the "get out of jail free card", because He already paid the price for my sin.(and all sin), so that by believing on Him, I have eternal life.John 3:16

[Seraph]

I'll duck for cover in addition to Byblos since I don't really believe in original sin in the traditional sense. I don't think sin works like an STD, I think it's a necessary product of our free will. It doesn't necessarily have to be "spread" from a single originator a long time ago. I think sin is an abstract (but real) part of human nature, not a physical thing or supernatural force that physically spreads. I think I'm responsible for and the originator of my own sin, not Adam.

And I think that the Holy Spirit changes us when we're saved by improving our character and personality and makes us more like God, rather than physically washing out original sin like you would wash a dirty pair of pants.

My own opinion anyway.

[Byblos]

It is my understanding that God judges people by their OWN sin, not the sin of their great great (x400) grandparents. And as long as we're free to choose, we will all inevitably sin.

Adam was the one who first broke the ice as Romans says, but I think other humans would've sinned whether Adam sinned or not.

This is going to sound much like the secured salvation thread but here goes it anyway ...

I believe in original sin and the only way to remove the stain of original sin is to be baptized into Christ. From there on it is my sins I will be judged on (now I will duck in anticipation ...).

Byblos, I don't disagree with this. But,(and there's always a but) when are we baptized into Christ?

For me it's baptism, for you I presume it's the sinner's prayer or confessing Christ as Lord and savior or whatever else. The point is that when we become born again (whatever formula we use to do that) we are no longer in the old Adam, we are in the new Adam (Jesus).

And, I also believe I will be judged on my good works and sins. But, only judged as far as heavenly rewards, not judged as to eternal life. Christ gave me the "get out of jail free card", because He already paid the price for my sin.(and all sin), so that by believing on Him, I have eternal life.John 3:16

Lol, I told you this is sounding more and more like the other thread ...

[Byblos]

I'll duck for cover in addition to Byblos since I don't really believe in original sin in the traditional sense. I don't think sin works like an STD, I think it's a necessary product of our free will. It doesn't necessarily have to be "spread" from a single originator a long time ago. I think sin is an abstract (but real) part of human nature, not a physical thing or supernatural force that physically spreads. I think I'm responsible for and the originator of my own sin, not Adam.

And I think that the Holy Spirit changes us when we're saved by improving our character and personality and makes us more like God, rather than physically washing out original sin like you would wash a dirty pair of pants.

My own opinion anyway.

But how did you get this sinful nature? How did it start?

[RickD]

Byblos, correct me if I'm not saying what you mean.

For me it's baptism, for you I presume it's the sinner's prayer or confessing Christ as Lord and savior or whatever else. The point is that when we become born again (whatever formula we use to do that) we are no longer in the old Adam, we are in the new Adam (Jesus).

you're saying that you're baptized into Christ at the moment of your literal baptism(when you are dunked under water, or however you're baptized)? Or are you saying that the physical baptism(water baptism) is a symbol of the real baptism in Christ?

for you I presume it's the sinner's prayer

For the record, I don't believe that just because someone says the sinners prayer, and or a pastor reads a "magic salvation formula"from the bible during an altar call, that it means that person is necessarily saved.

Lol, I told you this is sounding more and more like the other thread ...

Byblos, at this point, I think we could start a thread about the temperature of my swimming pool, and we'd turn it into assurance of salvation.

[Byblos]

Byblos, correct me if I'm not saying what you mean.

For me it's baptism, for you I presume it's the sinner's prayer or confessing Christ as Lord and savior or whatever else. The point is that when we become born again (whatever formula we use to do that) we are no longer in the old Adam, we are in the new Adam (Jesus).

you're saying that you're baptized into Christ at the moment of your literal baptism(when you are dunked under water, or however you're baptized)? Or are you saying that the physical baptism(water baptism) is a symbol of the real baptism in Christ?

It's one of those things where we get bogged down in semantics so much that we forget what the purpose is. I do believe water baptism and spiritual baptism are one and the same, they go hand in hand. Yet there is also room for baptism of the heart where one can desire baptism and get it even if the means of water baptism are not available (which is why I believe people who have never heard of the Gospel can still be saved, it's called invincible ignorance). So there you go, make of it as you wish.

for you I presume it's the sinner's prayer

For the record, I don't believe that just because someone says the sinners prayer, and or a pastor reads a "magic salvation formula"from the bible during an altar call, that it means that person is necessarily saved.

I didn't mean to make it sound that you did Rick. My point was to merely say we are born again into Christ, irrespective of the means.

Lol, I told you this is sounding more and more like the other thread ...

Byblos, at this point, I think we could start a thread about the temperature of my swimming pool, and we'd turn it into assurance of salvation.

Not unless you plan to get baptized in it.

[RickD]

Byblos,

It's one of those things where we get bogged down in semantics so much that we forget what the purpose is. I do believe water baptism and spiritual baptism are one and the same, they go hand in hand. Yet there is also room for baptism of the heart where one can desire baptism and get it even if the means of water baptism are not available (which is why I believe people who have never heard of the Gospel can still be saved, it's called invincible ignorance). So there you go, make of it as you wish.

So, are you saying that you believe if I have water baptism available to me, and I don't get baptized, The stain of original sin is not removed? Then where does that leave me?

Not unless you plan to get baptized in it.

Ha ha ha!! Good one Byblos

[Katabole]

Hi Rick and Byblos. Rick you asked: how do you explain the Noahic flood story?

Was it a local flood with only the Adamic race being destroyed, as the other races were already dispersed throughout the globe? Or, was it a local flood, that destroyed all races, that lived in a local area? Or, was it a global flood that destroyed all races, including the Adamic race?

Yes, I believe it was a local flood. To be more specific the sole purpose of God sending the flood was to destroy the offspring of the Sons of God (Fallen angels) and the daughters of Adam, which were called giants or Geber in the Hebrew. The word "men" in Gen 6:1 is the same word used in Gen 2:7, (eth ha 'adam) meaning "the man Adam". It is not speaking about humanity in general. Much of the lineage of Adam had been corrupted by the giants. Noah and his family however, God considered perfect in their generation. I happen to believe they were the only ones of the Adamic line that had not interbred with the Sons of God. God's command to Noah was that he bring every 'flesh' aboard the ark. Humans are made of flesh, so it could be surmised that the only other humans were those in the local area of the flood because I believe as you asked, that the other races (ethnos) were already dispersed throughout the globe. I know in 1Pet 3:20 it says only 8 souls were saved but this is specifically referring to only Adam's lineage. There could have been more humans aboard the ark, just not Adamic. I believe only the remainder of the Adamic bloodline was destroyed. And I believe that this attack on Adam's lineage was purposely directed by Satan because if the lineage was destroyed, Christ then could not be born though that lineage.

You also asked: Are you saying the Adamic line was created on or after the 7th day?

After. God certainly did complete the work during the six days and rested on the seventh but I don't believe God quit working, forming and creating altogether. God still sustains and upholds the universe. We know from the miracles of Jesus that He created loaves and fish from nothing (if you believe the feeding of the multitudes were examples of creation ex nihilo). We know the Holy Spirit works among people even today. Plus scripture says that God will create a new heaven and earth in Isa 65:17 and Jesus claims in John 5:17 (NIV), In his defense Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.” I guess I'll move the ball to your court. Do you believe that God stopped working after the sixth day and hasn't created anything since then Rick?

And you asked: 3) What is the Adamic race you refer to?

That would be all the descendents from Adam to Noah and then from Noah there would be a branching out of many descendents which formed specific ethnic groups. For example, I believe that the father of all the Greeks is Javan, son of Japheth, grandson of Noah, in Gen 10:2. Here is Javan's name defined from Strong's concordance:

http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/index2.htm

3120 Yavan
yaw-vawn'
probably from the same as 'yayin' (3196); effervescing (i.e. hot and active); Javan, the name of a son of Joktan, and of the race (Ionians, i.e. Greeks) descended from him, with their territory; also of a place in Arabia:--Javan.

As you know, Adam's lineage moves down the generations to Noah, to Abraham, to Jacob from which the twelve tribes of Israel appear, to Judah the fourth born of Jacob, to David and then to Christ. I don't believe the descendents of Adam are any better or worse than any other ethnic group, even though there have been ethnic slurs and self-righteous hypocricy from those who thought they were better than others simply by bloodline.

And Byblos you asked: how do you explain Adam's fall propagating to all if they are not from his lineage?

Well correct me if I'm wrong but were the Gentiles (non Israelite peoples), even held accountable for sin until the book of Acts with the emergence of the Church, when Gentiles were engrafted into the family of Abraham through the sacrifice of Christ as in the example of Corneilius? I believe Christ preached the Gospel to those that were dead including Gentiles in 1Pet 4:6, during the time He was in the tomb so that the dead would be accountable but I thought it was up to the the believers in the Church to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles, for how were the Gentiles to know what a sin was? Granted, they would have known elements of what is right or wrong because the same God created the Gentiles as created Adam's line but Paul the apostle claims he wouldn't know what a sin was except for the law, Rom 7:7.

[Seraph]

I'll duck for cover in addition to Byblos since I don't really believe in original sin in the traditional sense. I don't think sin works like an STD, I think it's a necessary product of our free will. It doesn't necessarily have to be "spread" from a single originator a long time ago. I think sin is an abstract (but real) part of human nature, not a physical thing or supernatural force that physically spreads. I think I'm responsible for and the originator of my own sin, not Adam.

And I think that the Holy Spirit changes us when we're saved by improving our character and personality and makes us more like God, rather than physically washing out original sin like you would wash a dirty pair of pants.

My own opinion anyway.

But how did you get this sinful nature? How did it start?

Well Adam committed the first sin and so was the first one to introduce sin (as in, expose people to it's influence and effects). But I think the possibility of sin has been present as far back as we've had the ability to disobey God, which was before Adam ate the fruit.

If people are sinners purely because of original sin, how did Adam choose to sin against God before he introduced original sin by sinning?