Evidence for God from Science

Proinsias wrote:

August wrote:Alien life is possible but unlikely.

Why would one claim alien life to be unlikely as opposed to likely?

Because there is simply no feasible places in the universe for life to exist that we know of. For example, you need water and carbon for life to exist, as well as a planetary environment that is suitable for the complex reactions.Out of the three types of galaxies, only spiral galaxies can have habitable zones.There are only certain slivers of habitable zones in those spiral galaxies anyway, and we don't observe any outside of our own that comply with the circumstances needed for life. The eliminates most of the galaxies we see, and in the observable spiral galaxies, the habitable zones don't seem to have the right ingredients, like a balanced solar system, heavy minerals and a stable sun.

Because there are simply no feasible places in the universe for life to exist that we know of.

This is a correct analysis...HOWEVER, very key here is the part of the phrase that says "that we KNOW of." The universe is a vast and enormous place. We can't see all of it. We can, however, make assumptions based upon what parts of it we can, indeed, see. But I don't think we can categorically say there is no other life in the universe - at least not YET. But IF it exists - and that is an enormous IF - it would appear to be so far away that we are highly unlikely to ever know of its existence. Plus, alien life may be mere microbes or simple life forms, as opposed to higher-level, intelligent beings, like ourselves. And what of other dimensions and other times? What may exist there? What other created possibilities might there be with our unfathomable God? I do believe that if there are other entities or beings beyond earth, that we will one day encounter, that God would have prepared us (or will) for them. But looking at scripture, this does not seem to be the case, at least not for those of us living on earth, up to the time of Revelation's events.

Philip wrote:

Because there are simply no feasible places in the universe for life to exist that we know of.

This is a correct analysis...HOWEVER, very key here is the part of the phrase that says "that we KNOW of." The universe is a vast and enormous place. We can't see all of it. We can, however, make assumptions based upon what parts of it we can, indeed, see. But I don't think we can categorically say there is no other life in the universe - at least not YET. But IF it exists - and that is an enormous IF - it would appear to be so far away that we are highly unlikely to ever know of its existence. Plus, alien life may be mere microbes or simple life forms, as opposed to higher-level, intelligent beings, like ourselves. And what of other dimensions and other times? What may exist there? What other created possibilities might there be with our unfathomable God? I do believe that if there are other entities or beings beyond earth, that we will one day encounter, that God would have prepared us (or will) for them. But looking at scripture, this does not seem to be the case, at least not for those of us living on earth, up to the time of Revelation's events.

Yes, that is why I said it is possible but not probable. We know enough about the universe to know that the vast majority of it cannot sustain life, but I agree, there may be some places that are equally as suited for life as earth. We just have not yet found it, or even the neighborhood, if it does exist.

As far as other dimensions are concerned, as Christians we already believe that, so no argument there.

My argument was more from a physical point of view.

August wrote:

Proinsias wrote:

August wrote:Alien life is possible but unlikely.

Why would one claim alien life to be unlikely as opposed to likely?

Because there is simply no feasible places in the universe for life to exist that we know of. For example, you need water and carbon for life to exist, as well as a planetary environment that is suitable for the complex reactions.Out of the three types of galaxies, only spiral galaxies can have habitable zones.There are only certain slivers of habitable zones in those spiral galaxies anyway, and we don't observe any outside of our own that comply with the circumstances needed for life. The eliminates most of the galaxies we see, and in the observable spiral galaxies, the habitable zones don't seem to have the right ingredients, like a balanced solar system, heavy minerals and a stable sun.

It's hard to know exactly what the base circumstances which are required for life are. If we apply the above criteria the possibilities of water, carbon, hydrogen and a planetary environment suitable for complex reactions occurring are surely still in the billions, if not hundreds of billions and beyond.
To suggest we know of no feasible place in the universe for life to exist seems like a leap. It's feasible life could exist on Mars, and that's our neighbour. The feasibility of life existing at the other side of the universe would appear to be beyond our grasp at the moment.

Intelligent life can't exist unless God created it. He may or may not have created aliens. That is all.

Well no there most likely isn't IMO, because that would mean Jesus would have to be sacrificed again would it not?
So as far as self-aware beings go, no.

Could there be "animal planets" consisting solely of varieties of animal and microbial organisms. Sure.

If there really are other self-aware beings out there similar to us;

- Would they be created in God's image, as we were?
- I suppose those "people" or beings could just live according to OT laws and not require a sacrifice.

- Or the more likely, they would be a form of Adam and Eve, before they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Personally I think "the creation" (entire universe) provides the perfect representation of God, and the only reason we question whether there might be other life beyond our own is because we cannot comprehend God. Why did he create such a vast universe solely to house planet earth? Because he's God, it not only reveals his true majesty but just how much he loves us.

Okay-Now where is that Sacramento Paul Guy?

This is creepy-

Although, as for me, I do not believe that God would ever ever create half alien/ half Giant- That would be perverted!
Not to mention that there is no fallen angel gonna ever be able to get back into Heaven, through trickery.

BTW- I almost forgot-I have heard it preached that In the beginning God's intention was for us all to lounge around in the Garden, pet the animals, eat the fruit and multiply-
So He made all the extra planets for us to live on-
Butttttttttt- Adam and Eve had to go and mess everything up for us-And, that's Why Jesus had to be the Last Adam-
Man I'm thinking that Adam and Eve messed up Big Time.

One of the most awesome and amazing aspects of God is that, as we on earth are but tiny specks within this unfathomably enormous universe which God created, the fact that we, as sinful and disappointing as we are, actually MATTER to God; and that we matter so much that He loves us enough to die for us. To me, that God DIED a BRUTAL death, for ME, a minute spec of dust in the universe, with all of my disappointing flaws - THIS is what amazes me about God, FAR beyond any questions of why He would create an immense universe and only populate one tiny blue planet with life. God must truly laugh at our narcissism, as we always tend to ACT as if it (the universe) is always about US. And thus many of us (mostly unbelievers) also seem to think that if WE were God, we would have somehow done it (the Creation) all differently and also better. Yeah, right!

Because life is so improbable, God would have to create that alien life. He could have, but I doubt there is other life in the universe, for the reasons mentioned already in this thread. What would be incredibly interesting would be if we WERE to meet them somehow, and they communicated to us that they also had a triune God who came down and sacrificed himself for their sins. I would think atheists would either convert or throw themselves off cliffs, or hide in their basements, unshaven and unshowered, moping.

Yeah, I've thought this scenario out.

We always talk about the vastness of the heavens and the universe. But, from God's perspective, does HE think them so vast? And IF He had created any previous universe that lasted much longer, would it not be much more vast? And, again, just as our houses have many closets - often of different dimensions and used for different functions - perhaps God's houses below have many, unconnected universes. Maybe we are the only ones in OUR universe. But what about in other universes that God may have created? Or that have already passed away in time? "In the Beginning" refers to the beginning of OUR universe and OUR time. Were there others? ARE there others? This is unknown. Point is that our perspective of size, dimension, time, etc is always measured from OUR tiny perspective. How little we probably know about what God has actually created.

Philip wrote:We always talk about the vastness of the heavens and the universe. But, from God's perspective, does HE think it so vast? And IF He had created any previous universe that lasted much longer, would it not be much more vast? And, again, just as our houses have many closets - often of different dimensions and used for different functions - perhaps God's houses below have many, unconnected universes. Maybe we are the only ones in OUR universe. But what about in other universes that God may have created? Or that have already passed away in time? "In the Beginning" refers to the beginning of OUR universe and OUR time. Were there others? ARE there others? This is unknown. Point is that our perspective of size, dimension, time, etc is always measured from OUR tiny perspective. How little we probably know about what God has actually created.

You know, this makes me think back to C.S. Lewis and his fascination with the idea that yes, perhaps there are many universes or dimensions where God is active. It's not like God can't handle it. Lewis used the idea over and over again in his symbolic literature with the creation of Narnia, use of "portals" and different flows of time, etc. It's always a possibility. And the atheists seem to think that having a multi-verse would get rid of God - but would it not necessarily increase the use for God, if universes would be so improbable (impossible) in coming about on their own?

What I want to know is - were angels then created before OUR universe? Wouldn't they had to have been, since some had fallen before we did? For our universe the Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God". I'm just curious how it would work then if angels had existed before the universe began or if they were created along with the matter in our universe. I guess it doesn't say "in the beginning was ONLY God".

In my numerous old earth/young earth debates I've been arguing for a local flood, and I hardly made the connection.

As many people know, 'erets', which means 'world', would have meant the populated world in Genesis flood account. As it's unlikely people would have migrated to any extent within only 1,500 years in the YEC view prior to the Flood, 'the world' would consist of the region that humanity lived in.
Think about it - for millions of years, there was life outside of the region known to the ancients as 'the world'. Europe, Africa, Australia, and the Americas (assuming southwest Asia was the part where it got flooded) were not part of 'the world', but look at the tremendous diversity and colour in the flora and fauna that these continents carried.
Now we have conquered the planet, and the 'world' is considered to be the globe.
But what about the prophetic references in the Bible to the future Babylon setting its nest amongst the stars?
Surely, if we terraform Mars and Venus, those will be considered part of the 'world' too. At one point, perhaps the entire solar system will be considered part of 'the world' if humans manage to spread through it!
This certainly makes you wonder. If God made eons of life outside of 'the world' at one point, what's stopping him from making eons of life outside the present meaning of 'world'? Like on Io, or Gleise581b? It's all within the same universe, all the same physics, all the same creator.

From what I know, God wants us to explore creation. Ever think that God's stored secret wonders for us up there in the stars? There certainly were wonders when explorers discovered Australia, the Americas, and New Guinea, and when we explored the bottom of the ocean. If those were not originally part of 'erets', then we can reason that it's most likely God might have created life outside of our present definition of 'world'!

I'm not talking about other sentient life forms. If God made sentient life, he would most certainly keep us away from each other. Imagine the turmoil that would ensue when two separate sentient life forms made contact. Imagine all those billions of years of accumulated viruses causing havoc on both cultures, and all the war, and we can't imagine what else. Columbus and the Americas would have been nothing (for UFO stuff, see Chuck Missler on youtube. He has excellent videos that opened my eyes to a lot of things).
Maybe this is another one of the reasons for the universe being so vast? There's plenty of space to keep several sentient cultures away from contacting each other.
What I'm referring to, however, is exotic animal/plant life. Think Darwin IV, or Pandora (without the Na'vi). There are just so many possibilities out there for us. The universe may be full of life. Io or Europa might have at one time supported aquatic animal life, and perhaps still are supporting it! Even finding the smallest fossil of a worm-like creature on another planet would rock the scientific world.

Let me illustrate another example:
God might be conveyed as being a painter. There's no reason to think Earth is his only canvas for painting life on. He might as well have several hundreds of others, just waiting to be explored, with a vast array of colourful splendor. It certainly is a very exciting thought.

So what if we find sentient life?
Simple answer: who cares?
Sentient life in the stars would either be extremely good for humanity or extremely bad. It's most likely (or inevitable) that they'd be spiritual, so we could accept them as brothers and sisters. It certainly is an odd thought - I'm more comfortable with the idea that God would not let us make contact. However, if sentients were found in the stars, then it wouldn't make a dent in the Bible. It would only change our understanding of man and our place in the universe.

Callisto wrote: "What I want to know is - were angels then created before OUR universe? Wouldn't they had to have been, since some had fallen before we did? For our universe the Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was God, and the Word was with God". I'm just curious how it would work then if angels had existed before the universe began or if they were created along with the matter in our universe. I guess it doesn't say "in the beginning was ONLY God"."

If current estimates for the age of the earth (4.5 billion years old) and the rough estimates for the dawn of man (evidences of the first art, religion, music, etc.) are accurate, then this means there were billions of years of earth history before the events involving the serpent, Adam and Eve ever occurred.

Also, according to Revelation 12: "Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world— he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

In fact, the Book of Job describes the angels worshipping God WHILE He was in the process of creating the world: “Where were you when I laid the earth's foundation? Tell me, if you understand. Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know! Who stretched a measuring line across it? On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone - WHILE the morning stars sang together and ALL the angels shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7) So Satan and his minions were clearly still in heaven prior to the creation of the world. But were angels created prior to the creation of the entire UNIVERSE? Unknown but possible.

So, clearly, at least God's loyal angels and Satan and his demons, all existed prior to the creation of the earth, and also prior to those rebelling being cast down out of heaven. But heaven is the abode of God. "In the Beginning" refers to the creation of the "heavens" (plural) that make up the UNIVERSE, but not to the creation of heaven (singular), the abode of God.

I've always thought that it is pretty egotistical of us to think that we are the only intelligent life out of all the endless universe! God created "The Heavens", so why do we just assume that he stopped with our measly little planet? He can create anything he wants, so there might be several other worlds that He created. He might not plan for us to ever meet, but that doesn't mean something isn't out there.

amyjo5995 wrote:I've always thought that it is pretty egotistical of us to think that we are the only intelligent life out of all the endless universe! God created "The Heavens", so why do we just assume that he stopped with our measly little planet? He can create anything he wants, so there might be several other worlds that He created. He might not plan for us to ever meet, but that doesn't mean something isn't out there.

I don't think it's egotistical, but rather realistic. Every solar system we've come across has characteristics that would inhibit life, especially an intelligent kind. Our solar system is so finely tuned. Even planets far away from us (like Jupiter) help Earth in ways we never would have thought of centuries ago.