Evidence for God from Science

LOL, I love you, Rick.

I think I found where the divide is.

You call it purely omniscience.

I call it omniscience because omnipotence and salvation happened WITHIN the creation.


I say "What would Jesus do?"
You're saying "What would Jesus know?"

See the difference? Our God is a God of action. Not one of just thoughts. Although I will concede and admit, God's thoughts are powerful.

As my wife sometimes tells me when I say "I love you"
"Your actions don't reflect the statement"

I'm not trying to be difficult here, but do you guys see the implications of this? Our mind is amazingly powerful, and it tells me this is very illogical. Its like an episode of Lost.

good one

Thank you all for your answers, i have a greater understanding now even though my position hasn't changed.

I call it omniscience because omnipotence and salvation happened WITHIN the creation.

Omnipotence, by definition, is unlimited power. God's unlimited power isn't limited to space and time. God's omnipotence, allowed Him to create space and time. That's what God "did", when He created the universe. Oh, by the way, God's salvation plan, was known to Him, before God created the universe, as well. So, Gods plan for salvation, while happening in this creation(Christ's death, burial, resurrection) was known before this creation, and will culminate after this creation has passed away. So, we're back to square one of our disagreement, again.

I say "What would Jesus do?"
You're saying "What would Jesus know?"

I'm not sure what you mean here.

As my wife sometimes tells me when I say "I love you"
"Your actions don't reflect the statement"

I definitely know what you mean here.

Thank you all for your answers, i have a greater understanding now even though my position hasn't changed.

Glad it helped

Of course we have freewill. Even if God knows every little thing we are to do, he is above space and time. He doesn't have to operate in the same linear manner that we do. We are still following our own paths through time and make our own choices. It would only be predestination if God Himself designed our each and every motions and caused us to carry them out... which He did not, by the way, and is not doing. I am of the belief that God can see all of our Time in any manner or all together; rather than foreknowledge it would be constant knowledge

Nice post Kmr thats the short answer i needed thanks

If we didn't have free will, then ALL of our decisions would be GOD'S decisions. But as we know that God cannot sin, and as we know that as men we constantly do so - and most horrifically at times - then we also know we have free will.

kmr wrote:Of course we have freewill. Even if God knows every little thing we are to do, he is above space and time. He doesn't have to operate in the same linear manner that we do. We are still following our own paths through time and make our own choices. It would only be predestination if God Himself designed our each and every motions and caused us to carry them out... which He did not, by the way, and is not doing. I am of the belief that God can see all of our Time in any manner or all together; rather than foreknowledge it would be constant knowledge

Romans 8:29, "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren." NKJV

Knowing beforehand is still knowlwdge...

Knowing beforehand is still knowlwdge...

True, knowing beforehand is indeed knowledge. But God's knowing the freely chosen acts of man beforehand in no way means that GOD causes men to act sinfully, as our sinful actions are merely a carrying out through action of what is already in one's heart and mind. But of God's heart, wishes and COMMANDS, He sees sin as repulsive and commands us not to do it. God also commands ALL men EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30), and says it is His desire that ALL men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and that He doesn't want ANYONE to perish (2 Peter 3:9).

But the "fore" in "foreknowledge" refers to a sequence of knowing events and outcomes in real time. But there is no action (His or ours) or thought (ours or His) that God ever ORIGINALLY had or He hasn't ALWAYS known about - or thus He could not know ALL past, present and future things, as scripture teaches He does. Biblical incidences of God "changing" His mind (in relation to OUR actions) are always in reaction to (and his free will allowance of) OUR decisions and actions, meaning that He always knew of ALL His and our actions and thus also always knew of His future responses or changes of course that would transpire in response to us and as things actually happen in real time, and accordingly as to whether we move within His will or against it. This is not to say that God is limited by our free will decisions or that He does not also act unilaterally in moving and making things happen, or bring the world to the conclusion He so desires and has always known. All of this is true! We cannot put God into a box, as He transcends all of the boxes the human mind can possibly conceive.

Philip wrote:If we didn't have free will, then ALL of our decisions would be GOD'S decisions. But as we know that God cannot sin, and as we know that as men we constantly do so - and most horrifically at times - then we also know we have free will.

Nice thought process thanks

The question comes down to this. God would be taking away our free will if our choices were all predetermined. The only way for that to be is if God designed us SO THAT we would carry out those predetermined choices. However, he did not design us to follow specific choices, he designed us for Him.

Now, I believe that it is not a matter of foreknowledge. If God is capable of existing in or operating in any time or all time he chooses, then when he knows our choices doesn't matter. If He knows it in the past, he also knows what we've done in the future and knows what we are doing. The idea of "God knows", or "God will know when", or "God knew" are all just a matter of our perspective... the three can be the same for God.

Therefore, the idea of predestination isn't a matter of "We MUST go through with what God knows we will do", because that is very one-dimensional thinking. It is a matter of "God knows the choices we have made." All Time is in one place, it is only our perception of Time that is changing, not necessarily Time itself. God's perspective is all-encompassing. That's why some of the analogies we've been suggesting aren't working very well.

Don't restrict God to our perception of Time. It causes all sorts of issues!

God is Omniscient Definition: The attribute of God by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future. God knows how best to attain His desired ends.

Meaning:
This, like omnipresence, demonstrates that man cannot hide from God because God knows all things. He knows the number of hairs on each head, He knows the heart and thoughts of every man. Just because no man is around to see us do wrong doesn't mean nobody saw it happen - God did. The proverbial tree falling in the forest that doesn't make a sound because no man was there to see it or know about it falling at that time, God sees and knows. Our intentions in the things we do are known to God. We need to be sure that our attitudes are congruent with our actions because God knows when we are doing things for the wrong reasons or motives.

See: http://www.parentcompany.com/awareness_of_god/aog12.htm